Yoda versus Dumbledore (the Force versus Hogwarts magic)

Originally posted by quanchi112
I disagree. He can't predict the future and needed all his focus on windu. He was disarmed and manipulated from his position at that point. That was his only play since windu had him dead to rights.

I respect your opinion. However one doesn't need precog to be able to do what sidious did. He knew anakin would come back to save him, you don't need to see into the future to know that. He was disarmed however that would flow toward him throwing the fight. If you rematch the battle you see that sidious had opportunities to kill mace. Then the novel says that mace could only stalemate sidious with vaapad. This shows that even being 100% vaapad he could only stalemate sidious according to the novel. The notion that sidious didn't know anakin was coming back for him is ludicrous.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
You misunderstood what I said sidious threw the fight all the proof you believe is on your side which is one line vs more than just one line of proof and common sense is on my side.

You clown, there isn't a SINGLE line ANYWHERE saying he threw the fight. You literally have NOTHING on your side that says that. I've posted a litany of proof that he didn't throw the fight. Not just one line. Go back and look at my points... they are numerous. You on the other hand have very little proof and more conjecture than anything else. On a scale of who has more proof... it isn't even close... they would laugh at you in a court of law with what you're calling proof. Like laugh you out of the courtroom

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I respect your opinion. However one doesn't need precog to be able to do what sidious did. He knew anakin would come back to save him, you don't need to see into the future to know that. He was disarmed however that would flow toward him throwing the fight. If you rematch the battle you see that sidious had opportunities to kill mace. Then the novel says that mace could only stalemate sidious with vaapad. This shows that even being 100% vaapad he could only stalemate sidious according to the novel. The notion that sidious didn't know anakin was coming back for him is ludicrous.

The notion under the duress of the fight he was focusing on anakin is absurd. He was using his skills against windu one on one. He lost but manipulated dumb anakin. In the end the unstable anakin killed him but he wasn't bright enough to think if I torture his son maybe he won't like it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sidious tried to and was unable to best him. Sidious made shirt work of the other Jedi but windu is at the top with Sidious and yoda.

The notion under the duress of the fight he was focusing on anakin is absurd. He was using his skills against windu one on one. He lost but manipulated dumb anakin. In the end the unstable anakin killed him but he wasn't bright enough to think if I torture his son maybe he won't like it.

As dumb as the wall basher is... he's finally right about something.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As dumb as the wall basher is... he's finally right about something.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You clown, there isn't a SINGLE line ANYWHERE saying he threw the fight. You literally have NOTHING on your side that says that. I've posted a litany of proof that he didn't throw the fight. Not just one line. Go back and look at my points... they are numerous. You on the other hand have very little proof and more conjecture than anything else. On a scale of who has more proof... it isn't even close... they would laugh at you in a court of law with what you're calling proof. Like laugh you out of the courtroom

1. One line is not a litany.

2. Here you go again trying make your one line of prof the universal truth to end everything.

3. Lucas fact + common sense = you lose

4. Again so one line of proof vs more than three and also common sense with you having one line. I think you need to revisit math class.

5. They would laugh at you for only using one fact when you must branch out and stop using arguments that already been crushed.

6. Lucas never said that sidious didn't throw the fight. I've said that several times and you can't counter that.

7. Going around with only one line of fact is sad. Going around with your common sense and more than one fact is better. Your only line is that Lucas says that sidious tried to kill mace. Well guess what Lucas then says that sidious faked weakness. No matter what you say you can't avoid that. It's there end of story, period. Then since we have both pulled the novel into this the novel says that sidious if he went a little longer hit would have killed mace heck probably less as sidious was about to make windu kiss his lightsaber. Then put that with Lucas saying sidious faked weakness this proves that sidious could have killed mace if he wanted to. Unless you have something valid to say don't reply.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sidious tried to and was unable to best him. Sidious made short work of the other Jedi but windu is at the top with Sidious and yoda.

The notion under the duress of the fight he was focusing on anakin is absurd. He was using his skills against windu one on one. He lost but manipulated dumb anakin. In the end the unstable anakin killed him but he wasn't bright enough to think if I torture his son maybe he won't like it.

Exactly he bested the other three in a matter of seconds so why in the world would he not be able to best windu as all three of them are definitely better than mace windu when combined and speed blitzed them like no ones business. Actually he is below their tier with dooku however he isn't just light years behind he is a tier down yoda and sidious.

You don't have to focus on anakin to be able to throw that fight as sidious told anakin I can save your wife and that I'm the Sith Lord you have been looking for. Then he had a chance to kill sidious so why would he just let sidious die. Sidious would know this. He is a master of deceit and manipulation. Why wouldn't sidious be able to know anakin is coming?

The stunt coordinator of the prequel triology states that anakin skywalker moved up to a lvl 9 and yoda was also a lvl nine. They have moved up with sidious. This shows that putting the two on equal playing field the battle could go to sidious in sabers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is so much wrong with this though that I don't even know where to begin.

1. Dooku is not more powerful than Mace and there is nothing to support such a claim. In fact, if we use powerscaling.. then Mace is clearly Dooku's superior thanks to Vaapad. If they fought.. Vaapad would carry the day against dooku likely 10/10. Somehow you are under this theory that Dooku is better and that is wrong. The BEST you could say is peers.. but no way is dooku better.

a) Just look at the respective fights... Yoda casually dealt with Dooku and didn't look the least bit bothered. Somebody you AGREE in beyond Dooku (Sids) was OVERPOWERED by Mace. That right there based on feats shows mace > than Dooku

2. No sparring could never and should never be ever confused with a real fight. How you're even arguing this point is beyond me. Let me ask you this... Do you think if you boxed a good friend... you'd fight him just as hard as boxing somebody you detest or even don't know? Of course not. Sparring a friend could never be conflated to a life and death situation. You know in sparring if you make a mistake you won't die. In a life and death situation you know any mistake you make can lead to death. That makes you sense even more keen and you're fighting for your life. Now compare that to sparring with a buddy of yours... not even close to the same and to even see you arguing this point even now is comical. Nobody said sparring does nothing.. that is a red herring. Sparring can make you better.. but that should never be confused with a real fight or what would happen in a real fight correct?

3. THERE IS NO DATE GIVEN ON WHEN THEY SPARRED. Most likely it was before Mace even invented Vaapad. Even if it's not, he still wouldn't be able to use Vaapad against a lightsider. That TOTALLY invalidates the sparring. It pretty much means next to nothing. To say nothing of the fact that we know Mace become more powerful AFTER said sparring. So again, who cares about sparring. We match them up prime for prime and Mace would win most every time thanks to his form.

4. AGAIN, that narration doesn't say he beat him more. Just that he beat him in sparring. You do concede that it could still mean Mace won more correct?

You're very much missing something here that needs to be addressed.... STYLES make fights. You see this in every combat sprot imaginable. I'll give examples... Just because Whitaker could wipe the floor with an ATG in Chavez.. doesn't mean he can beat a lesser fighter like Oscar (who's not on the same level all time as chavez) Hoya is bigger and presents different issues for Whitaker than a Chavez would. THAT is what we have here.

1. windu is considerable bigger than Yoda and has more natural weight and leverage than him. He also has vaapad which increases his speed and potency and is CONSTANTLY supplying him with energy and stamina. Yoda doesn't have these characteristics. See where I'm going with this now? Styles make fights. Mace was better equipped to deal with Sids than Yoda is. it's really that simple. Doesn't mean he's better than Yoda or would beat yoda (yoda would win after a tough fight). But against a Darksider... and Mace fully emerged in Vaapad .. yes he can do better than Yoda does.. and he DID do better.

2. Totally and completely wrong.. there is NOT ONE NARRATION that even suggest Sids threw that fight. Nothing in the book.. nothing in the script.. nothing in the movie. Literally NOTHING. The book goes into GREAT detail that the movie didn't. It elaborated on very specific things going on in people's heads that wasn't said in the movie. Yet, you expect me to believe that a huge major plot point like this was never mentioned.. EVER. Doesn't that seem odd to you? That defies logic and reason to even say such a thing.

3. Lucas flat out says.. he OVERPOWERED HIM. Literally. The book mentions he went at him with ALL HIS FURY. Why would the book say he went at him with all his fury if he was really NOT and trying to lose? That AGAIN defies all logic and common sense. Lucas flat out says he beat him and the emperor tried to kill him. Look at the commentary to refresh. It's all right there.

4. Again, if Sids was trying to lose.. why say.. no you'll DIE.. DIE.. as he fires powerful lighting at Mace. So powerful that Mace could barely keep his own lightsaber away from his own face. He was even breathing the fumes of it cause it was so close. Clearly very powerful lighting and he says DIE. Yet, you expect me to believe he said die, but was really just playing around? Please, I refuse to believe you actually think that makes logical sense.

5. You didn't answer... so what if Sids with all the strikes he through and tired a force push (which was countered BTW) .. What happens if Sids actually landed one of those blows? What then, what happens to this big grandiose plan then? See what I'm saying here? It just makes no sense.

6. Further, he was disarmed in direct saber combat and overpowered as Lucas noted. The ONLY thing he faked which Lucas comments on.. is feigning weakness. He wasn't totally depleted of energy and a weak old feeble man like he pretended to be. THAT is all he faked. By that point though.. he had already been disarmed.. beaten.. face messed up and beaten. Sure, he had more fight but he was on the losing end of that fight. Plain and simple. No making up theories to explain Sids losing changes that. You have no leg to stand on when it comes to ACTUAL proof. It's all on my side.

6. Lastly about that fight and to show you the difference between sparring and life and death situation. Mace submerged in Vaapad along with the Emperor were fighting SO FAST that to Anakin they were nothing more than a blur and a mist. THAT is how fast they were fighting.. Even a badass like Anakin with super perception couldn't see them. That SAME Anakin BEAT Dooku and could see all his movements. THAT is the level Mace was fighting at and shows the level or two he can go beyond Dooku thanks to Vaapad and when it matters. Now think about your sparring argument and I hope you can see how silly it is.

FYI it said my post and yours were too many characters so I cut out some of your quote. But I answered everything you said.

Hardly what I'd call one point. This is ownage over a variety of topics, with multiple points for each.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Exactly he bested the other three in a matter of seconds so why in the world would he not be able to best windu as all three of them are definitely better than mace windu when combined and speed blitzed them like no ones business. Actually he is below their tier with dooku however he isn't just light years behind he is a tier down yoda and sidious.

You don't have to focus on anakin to be able to throw that fight as sidious told anakin I can save your wife and that I'm the Sith Lord you have been looking for. Then he had a chance to kill sidious so why would he just let sidious die. Sidious would know this. He is a master of deceit and manipulation. Why wouldn't sidious be able to know anakin is coming?

Sidious realized in that situation to manipulate anakin. I agree 100 percent. But to say he let windu kick his saber out on purpose and scar his own face is silly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They were clearly not up to Windu. Nothing suggests they were on his level. Just like palaptine bested savage oppress and maul but failed against windu because he's superior.

Sidious realized in that situation to manipulate anakin. I agree 100 percent. But to say he let windu kick his saber out on purpose and scar his own face is silly.

It is actually shown that due to sidious deep emergin in the dark side his face was already like what we see in the original trilogy. It is actually stated that he uses a sith mask ability or just an illusion in order to keep his appearance for his double life. Please the entire movie was palaptine manipulating anakin.

The duel with dooku. Manipulation as stated by George Lucas

2. Making him his eyes and ears in the Jedi. Manipulation as seen onscreen.

3. Tells him the story of Darth Plaguis. Manipulation as seen by him wanting to save his wife

4. Fight with windu. Manipulation as freely admitted by all

The entire movie of revenge of the sith was a manipulation. Ok so if I have the power to save your wife and I am a master manual tour and I know that the Jedi are coming you actually think I don't have a plan already. If sidious wanted to win all he would have to do is unleash force lightning at them since he was bending windus lightsaber he could undoubtedly just do that to the rest. Again if tell you I can save your wife and then you go and tell the Jedi and I know about this you think I'm just going to sit their and wait you don't think I'm going to formulate some type of plan? Sidious as stated by George Lucas was manipulating anakin and that duel was no exception.

1. All of the disarming and stuff like that happened like 3-5 seconds before anakin walked in. Coincidental I think not. You all may think there is no evidence pointing to palaptine knowing anakin was coming, however there is. Palaptine has manipulated anakin throughout the entire film, why would this be any different. The novelization says windu knew a mile a way so why wouldn't palaptine know being that his force powers are possibly better than that of yoda.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It is actually shown that due to sidious deep emergin in the dark side his face was already like what we see in the original trilogy. It is actually stated that he uses a sith mask ability or just an illusion in order to keep his appearance for his double life. Please the entire movie was palaptine manipulating anakin.

The duel with dooku. Manipulation as stated by George Lucas

2. Making him his eyes and ears in the Jedi. Manipulation as seen onscreen.

3. Tells him the story of Darth Plaguis. Manipulation as seen by him wanting to save his wife

4. Fight with windu. Manipulation as freely admitted by all

The entire movie of revenge of the sith was a manipulation. Ok so if I have the power to save your wife and I am a master manual tour and I know that the Jedi are coming you actually think I don't have a plan already. If sidious wanted to win all he would have to do is unleash force lightning at them since he was bending windus lightsaber he could undoubtedly just do that to the rest. Again if tell you I can save your wife and then you go and tell the Jedi and I know about this you think I'm just going to sit their and wait you don't think I'm going to formulate some type of plan? Sidious as stated by George Lucas was manipulating anakin and that duel was no exception.

1. All of the disarming and stuff like that happened like 3-5 seconds before anakin walked in. Coincidental I think not. You all may think there is no evidence pointing to palaptine knowing anakin was coming, however there is. Palaptine has manipulated anakin throughout the entire film, why would this be any different. The novelization says windu knew a mile a way so why wouldn't palaptine know being that his force powers are possibly better than that of yoda.

You are a clown. THAT IS PROOF shoes. You literally have no idea what proof is. None. Just so you know and it's clear, Mace was above those three acclaimed Jedi considerably. Even Anakin. Anakin who beat Dooku and you claim is a 9.... well that Anakin who could perceive Dooku just fine... couldn't EVEN SEE PALPS AND MACE FIGHING.. They were nothing but blurs to him how fast they were fighting. To be fighting that fast, shows Sids wasn't throwing the fight... further shows how far Mace is above those three jedi and even Anakin who couldn't even perceive their movements. Sids lost fair and square. Deal with it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They were clearly not up to Windu. Nothing suggests they were on his level. Just like palaptine bested savage oppress and maul but failed against windu because he's superior.

Sidious realized in that situation to manipulate anakin. I agree 100 percent. But to say he let windu kick his saber out on purpose and scar his own face is silly.

We all know that sidious is the greater duelist of the two. He is meant to be yodas polar opposite with the blade and the force. Windu is below yoda as we all know. Windu has already been said to be on dooku a level with either dooku being a hair stronger but mostly a stalemate. Yoda handled dooku easily as seen in the movie and read in the book. With that how do you figure Windu is on palapa times level at all.

Windu had three things

His own anger

Palpatines dark side energy

His own blade skills

Even with all that he could only stalemate him. So on a normal day if they just met out of no where windus anger would be greatly lessend this the effects of vaapad would be lowered. So with that since it was a stalemate with those factors lowered sidious would win thus this proves sidious is a better duelist thus that fight was thrown.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Hardly what I'd call one point. This is ownage over a variety of topics, with multiple points for each.

So much wrong with this.

Dooku vs Windu. Those two are thought to be equals however I would say dooku is slightly better just marginally though. Vaapad would not be a game changer for mace as dooku wouldn't let off enough dark energy or rage or anger in order for mace to win. In the force I would give an edge to dooku due to telekinesis better showings, however it's only marginal. In terms of there weapons dooku gets the edge as the curve provides better benefits. In there skills dooku has more refinement and is able to take on the combined might of anakin and obi wan combined. The two are to close its a matter of opinion so you saying that me saying mace is slightly better is wrong and you saying that Windu would win 10/10 battles against dooku is very wrong.

a. Yoda>dooku and Windu Sidious vs Windu with a freaking huge amount= sidious Dooku vs Windu using vaapad is either dooku>Windu slightly or dooku= Windu. Yoda beat dooku before his prime however that doesn't matter as even when in his prime with the Vjum amp couldn't beat yoda. Windu with a gigantic amp could only stalemate sidious. So with that your assertion is once again wrong.

2. Yes spparing is not the real deal but why would they spar if it didn't matter. That's how you progress your skills is by practicing. Yes you can learn from the real thing but you learn as well from sparring. Vaapad was creating through sparring so look at what it is now. The Jedi of that era are better than the one during the time the brotherhood of darkness or the great sith wars after what's the word SPARRING. Yoda Windu polo koon shake ti all the greats didn't engage on a regular fight with lightsaber so shut up.

3. But they sparred. They were in the same time of Jedi time. Vaapad will not save mace from dooku. Dooku does not let off a strong dark side prescience to where he he would give Windu a large enough amp. Sparring matters just deal with it.

4. No. Mace never won against him since by the time they would have again to test mace truly dooku was either busy or about to exit the Jedi life and return to Serrano and become a sith.

5. You sir are amazingly stupid. It all depends on Whitaker. Does he specialize in one type of way of fighting and Chavez is what he has trained himself for of is he adaptable. If he is adaptable than Whitaker crushes Oscar as he is way better than Chavez. If he is adaptable than it doesn't matter what he can bring he is better than someone who is better than him way better according to you so why wouldn't Whitaker be able to destroy Oscar.

6. Vaapad works as much as the anger in the weirder and the dark side from an opponent works. The circumstances of that fight are also in question. Maces anger. If sidious and Windu fight again he wouldn't receive as big an amp as the dark side with him wouldn't be as strong. Then with all that it was only a stalemate. At least yodas battle isn't in question and some even say that yoda is better than sidious so see what I mean. Also styles don't always make the battle. Dooku with his style is at a disadvantage against power attacks yet he was able to take on anakin with no problem and then sora bulq. So.

7. Overpowered you idiot. He was describing what happened onscreen. We see sidious get disa,red and that can translate to overpower so saying that does not help you since overpower is a loose word.

I've given you plenty of narration to work off of and am waiting for you to effectively counter them.

When sidious could kill him when're he wanted to? You do understand he is a manipulator and thus an actor correct? He said you will die once and then goes on to manipulating anakin and by the words of George Lucas fakes his weakness.

Exactly you have confirmed my point. He could have used a force push anyone of those times and took Windu out but he didn't. So thank for proving my point and conceding.

Please as a duelist sidious is definitely the better of the two. If he faked weakness he wasn't depleted of weakness. It's stated that since vaapad only offered a stalemate no one could overcome the other and the tow could fight forever. So you call going to a ledge where he would have to lower his speed and hesitate direct saber combat even in the film you see sidious hesitate for a second. That not direct saber combat direct saber combat is what Darth vader vs Luke skywalker. That defeated by direct saber combat.

Sparring vs real deal. We all know the difference but you don't understand the importance.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You are a clown. THAT IS PROOF shoes. You literally have no idea what proof is. None. Just so you know and it's clear, Mace was above those three acclaimed Jedi considerably. Even Anakin. Anakin who beat Dooku and you claim is a 9.... well that Anakin who could perceive Dooku just fine... couldn't EVEN SEE PALPS AND MACE FIGHING.. They were nothing but blurs to him how fast they were fighting. To be fighting that fast, shows Sids wasn't throwing the fight... further shows how far Mace is above those three jedi and even Anakin who couldn't even perceive their movements. Sids lost fair and square. Deal with it.

I don't claim he is a nine. I know he is as stated by the stunt coordinator.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
We all know that sidious is the greater duelist of the two. He is meant to be yodas polar opposite with the blade and the force. Windu is below yoda as we all know. Windu has already been said to be on dooku a level with either dooku being a hair stronger but mostly a stalemate. Yoda handled dooku easily as seen in the movie and read in the book. With that how do you figure Windu is on palapa times level at all.

Windu had three things

His own anger

Palpatines dark side energy

His own blade skills

Even with all that he could only stalemate him. So on a normal day if they just met out of no where windus anger would be greatly lessend this the effects of vaapad would be lowered. So with that since it was a stalemate with those factors lowered sidious would win thus this proves sidious is a better duelist thus that fight was thrown.

We see in the film windu was on his level hell even better. We don't see yoda best dooku. We don't see yoda best palpatine so I have no idea where you are getting your information. The evidence suggests otherwise. I go by what I see. Yoda didn't beat anyone of note in the films.

You speculate sidious would win but that doesn't override the fact windu won.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So much wrong with this.

I've come to the conclusion that you know F all about Star wars or any combat really.

Let me own you yet again.

you claim Mace wouldn't be able to use Vaapad against Dooku because he's so calm and doesn't get angry. This is false and Mace could feed off of him. This is explicitly shown when Yoda outright says he sense the Darkside in him. His force lighting would again be Darkside energy. This is confirmed in the ROTS novelization describing the super conducting loop when Sids was firing lighting at mace and he was feeding off of it and sending it back at Palps. So you're totally wrong that Mace wouldn't be able to feed off of Dooku.

You keep saying Mace never bested Dooku in sparring. That isn't how things work. You should change your name to Logical Fallacy. Absence of proof isn't proof. They never once stated mace could never beat Dooku. That doesn't prove your case that he never beat him. The narration simply reads... The only person besides Yoda to best Mace in saber combat is Dooku. That statement doesn't mean Dooku always won, nor does it mean Mace never won. It simply means what it says, Dooku was able to beat him (maybe once, who knows) in saber combat. Nothing more.

Again, Sids was TWICE disarmed and overpowered in direct Saber combat by Yoda and Mace. They both punked him in direct saber combat. That's just the reality of what happened bud and you need to accept it and move on. Sids is simply not quite as good as Yoda or Mace in saber combat.

He did use a force push and Mace countered it... found Sids shaterpoint about the slippery floor and exploited it. End of story. But this scene ONLY REINFORCES in CLEAR PRESENTATION that Sids tried to kill Mace. Not only are we explicitly told this during Saber combat. We see it again when the novel outright STATES that Sids tried to push him out of the window and windu barely countered it before falling out. Answer me something Shoes, how do you throw a fight when you AGAIN (just like with sabers) try and push somebody out the window to their death. The novel explicitly states that is what he tried to do and windu was barely able to counter. This is mounds and mounds of proof on my side that Sids never threw the fight.

We see this explicitly stated again when Sids fires lighting at Mace and says no YOU WILL DIE.. DIEEEEEE. Yet another example of Lucas and Stover explicitly stating and REAFIRMING what they had said numerous times before.. Sids tried to kill mace and instead got beaten and overpowered. Game set match

Lol love this one Rob.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial

Lol love this one Rob.

Not being able to grow any facial hair is girly, clearly not the case since I have a Goatee... I just don't see the need to look like a clown wanna be hipster. That is where I draw the line.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not being able to grow any facial hair is girly, clearly not the case since I have a Goatee... I just don't see the need to look like a clown wanna be hipster. That is where I draw the line.

Yes, yes, Asgardians are clowns too for having beards 😆

Lets face it, you can't grow a beard.

I found a pic of you finally..horse meets goat.