Yoda versus Dumbledore (the Force versus Hogwarts magic)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Your reply seems a bit more truncated than usual.... In a hurry?

I only had limited amount of typing since my first reply was more than a thousand words over the limit also you saying that 20 years wouldn't affect yoda in the slightest, you are being naive. That like saying a boxer who hasn't been practiced in 20 years is still the same as when he left 20 years ago. The skills you have are still there you just don't have the same amount of power in your attacks or speed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Welcome back Smush the midget Parker. Glad to see you still can't get a winner correct in these forums. Yoda crushes him, with the utmost ease

Opinion

Gotta tell ye, hard to keep replying if 70% of what I type will just get ignored/skipped....

Know what? Imma nap and give you time to put together a reply to the rest of my posts in a separate reply. Fair enough?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Gotta tell ye, hard to keep replying if 70% of what I type will just get ignored/skipped....

Know what? Imma nap and give you time to put together a reply to the rest of my posts in a separate reply. Fair enough?

Yes it is

1. Thank you for the visual diagram. Yes a sheild must be placed in between the target and the attacker in order for it to be effective. However you saying that the force TK automatically hits the opponent is a tad bit premature. Even the force is seceptable to distance to distance. The reason it seems like the force is so instantaneous is because most if not all of its showings are short ranged. Sidious vs yoda short ranged. Dooku vs obi wan and anakin first time and second short ranged. The widest range force push would be dookus in season 6 and really it took about 2 seconds for it to make it there.

2. When yoda used that force push on the droid in episode 1 he already knew where the droids were and he knew where the shots were coming from. This further proves my point that in order for him to do that he had to buckle down and concentrate and still needed his hands to do so.

2a. Force resistance

3. It appears to hit instantaneously since it is not that far apart from the target. However this still proves that TK is avoidable.

4. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

5. Yes he used force push. After doing what I said he needs to do. To do that yoda had to get into meditation style, then focus for more than 2 seconds then wave his hand in the air in order to do this. So this isn't something he does seemlessly. He needed time and concentration to do that something he wouldn't get in a battle like this as dumbledore would have spells ready for him anyway. Also yoda already knew where the droids were he had already seen them so he already knew where to concentrate.

5a. Yes it is fact because it's most if not always close distance. The farthest force push would be when dooku force pushed anakin and obi wan in the clone wars or sidious and yoda with neither being at the very least 13ft apart. Then with that anakin and obi wan still had time to put their arms up to block his force push. Meaning it's not as instantaneous as you believe. I will agree the force can attack from any direction that the caster chooses. For instance of dooku shoots out force lightning or force push from the front it's not going to attack the back. So yes it can attack from any direction but it up to the caster to decide what that direction is.

5b. So is believing a lightsaber can deflect spells from the HP universe. Anything not explicitly or otherwise not solidly inferred from the author is considered speculation. Protego has blocked both spells and physical objects. From the movies protego can block physical objects as seen in order of the Phoenix when umbridge uses protego on an arrow. This could further go to if yoda were to run up to dumbledore he could reflect him back and stagger yoda and due to his small weight possibly knock him over completely.

6. Understandable

7. Concentration as well as hand gestures in terms of force push. Yoda in the first episode needed to use his hands in order to do all that he did. He didn't levitate them with his mind and then throw them a about. He used his hands. Also per the Luke skywlaker argurmemt. Not saying Luke at that time was all powerful but he was trained by obi wan kenobi and yoda at the time PLUS his already astounding connection to the force. So yes was a noobie but he is the son of the person who had the highest midiclorian count in the universe so the raw power he had alone he could do it on his own. As without much if any raining anakin as a child was able to pod race the only human capable of that. Also plaguis wasn't able to fool sidious who at the time had no such training so with that new or not sometimes the raw power someone posses can be more than enough.

7a. A spell does not need gestures nor words as seen in the movies. It's no need in trying to argue that point when everyone knows it's true. However you are correct on the topic of a spell not needing concentration or time. Yes it does however only spells such as when firestorm Aqua spell, dark blast used by voldemrot in order of the Phoenix. However spells like expelliarmus when in its Long red strong can be used when attention is diverted somewhere else. For instance in the order of the Phoenix dumbledore was able to stare and look back at Harry showing how he was trying to protect him and himself showing that not all of his attention was to the blast or how in deathly hallows how Harry was comcemtrated on both the snake and voldemrot and look what happened he caused that big explosion. Force push doesn't need words or as much time as spells but concentration as well as gestures. As seen throughout the animation and the movie.

7b. Yes STANDARD USES. Keyword is standard. Standard means basically as normal or average. This means the normal application are meant to choke. However as I have done research on telekenisis it's shown that depending on the level of power of the caster force choke can lift people. So sidious is a extremely close to God like power in the dark side so with his advancement he can lift people with force choke like dooku also can. Another example is how the standard works, force push. It's standard is to increase the distance between an opponent but when taken to its highest degrees can evolve to spread an opponent alive. This was only done by one person and its speculation since it's so little data in this person. Darth plaguis did this with assassins who attacked him and palpatine. He was able to shread the assassins apart. This has never been shown by any other force weilder in the movies or TCW. As of ROTS sidious is slightly but surely more powerful than yoda but no by a long shot though. As of DE however is wipes the floor with yoda.

Give me a day or two for the reply.

Dissappointed by the maypaq fight. Although I did win 100 bucks. Gonna go out drinking and spend it.

Thanks for your patience, anyway:

1. So, what you're saying is that because they are short ranged, they hit instantly and that at distance, all force pushes have travel time? And you base it on the one attack Anakin and Obi made vs Dooku as it can only be a force push?

Wrong. When Anakin fought Dooku while protecting the hutt baby, they both used slow moving force attacks from short range that had travel time in a wave-like blast. In the same fight, Dooku force pushed Anakin and it hit instantly. These were all done while they were within 10-20 feet of each other (below or within the same range of the instance force push Qui Gon used on the droids in the hangar, an instant force push). This seems to point out that there is a different (from a basic force push) application of TK force out there that moves like slow moving blast wave. Check and mate.

Every force push has hit instantly, you cannot use a different (tho rare) application of TK and summarily categorize all use of TK as the same. Whereas there are multiple showings of force TK at various range hitting instantly. The force push does not follow a different set of rules to other basic force TK moves. What applies for basic force lift/pull should apply for a force push as they are all simply single-directional TK force applied at different angles.

I can also show you instances where distances do not affect (or at least the distances here) did not affect/slow down TK. Or when slower-moving TK would have made certain "feats" impossible. One good example was when Ezra fell literally over a hundred (closer to 200 IMO) feet down and Kanaan still caught him with a force lift. If the force wasn't instant, it would have been impossible to catch him at this range as he was no doubt already falling at a faster speed than the 20 feet/second force push in the Dooku instance.

Furthermore, Protego blocking force attacks is pure speculation. The force is neither a magical spell nor a physical object. For the same reason I am not speculating that force absorb would work on magic, you cannot assert that a shielding charm would work on force attacks.

Also, in Clone Wars, a pair of jedi were able to force lift some shielded droidekas, so that's more proof that the force can bypass shields.

2. Ah. But this example PROVES that the force does not follow LOS rules. And thus further proves that the force cannot be blocked by a Protego. Check and mate again.

You also seem to be mistakenly equating a "tool"( something that helps) as a "necessity" (something that is needed else something cannot be done). Meditating and hand gestures are concentration tools. In order for something to be a necessity, it has to be present on each and every showing. A single showing where it is not needed invalidates it as a necessity and I have already proven with MULTIPLE examples that Yoda doesn't need to take time to concentrate to apply force sufficient to KO Dumby. The very hatch+droid tossing "feat" where he tosses droids hundreds of feet in the air would no doubt KO (even kill) an old man like Dumby from sheer impact alone. I cannot believe you can argue with a straight face that Yoda is weaker in his old age when in the same episode I showed you, he casually froze Ventress (a Sith assassin) mid-swing and disarmed her like nothing as well as caught (with admittedly a bit of difficulty) a multi-ton set of falling boulders (and, if you look closely, the debris extended dozens of feet up).

2a. I think you're thinking of the wrong ability again. Force resistance/shield is a mind shield used to defend against the influence of the dark side.

3. Already disproven. See above

Using one instance of a likely different ability and then expanding it as a general rule on how jedi powers work. Problem with that is, there are examples out there that prove you wrong (w/c I mentioned in my last post).

4. Ok then.

5. Tool =/= necessity (see above).

5a. Dooku pushing Anakin and Obi Wan was instant, there was literally no time between Dooku raising his arm and it hitting them, they just managed to resist it, giving them the opportunity to raise their arms.

Well, since you agreed that the force can strike from any angle, Yoda (with his precog warning him that the wizard has a shield from the front) force pushes Dumby from the right side for the easy KO.

Check and mate. Again.

5b. Whoever said lightsabers could deflect HP spells?

An arrow is not the force. The force has bypassed armor/obstacles, ignored LOS and hit targets thru a video projection. It does not follow rules specific to physical objects and, thus, you cannot treat it as such.

6. Good. No more of that Dumby durability crap. Y'hear?! :-p

7a. I already said that I can accept that combat spells can be either wordless or nearly gestureless (although you need to show me that they can be both). WTF does "Long red strong" mean?

Concentration (at varying degrees, however, as Yoda has been able to do some powerful stuff nonchalantly like freezing Ventress mid-swing) is a constant. Gestures, however, are not (as proven by Palpy, Vader and Luke).

7b. Lol. When the wiki said that it sometimes "lifts the person off the ground" it meant slightly lift you up like when Dooku used it on Obi (right before he force threw him). NOT pull you back and fling you over dozen feet in the air like an obvious force pull/lift would. Also, are you forgetting that in the same episode, Sidious force choked 2 mandalorians without lifting them??

Also, are you saying is that a force choke that also lifts the target can bypass a wall/LOS but a standard force lift cannot (you're wrong anyway, Kanaan/Ezra already showed that it can).

..............

That's a bad argument and you know it.... :/

Also, DE is not canon.

No problem

1. Also based on how everything is yielded by the law of distance. No matter how fast something goes it has to travel that distance, unless you teleporting.

1a. This must be the battle in the clone wars movie and if it is most of those attacks were at the most 2-3ft apart, as the two were mostly clashing with their blades and the ones that were used farther apart took time to get there with enough time for dumbledore to be able to apparate out the way. I just watched it twice and all of them except that one were close. 3ft at max. Check and mate. Those were force pushes as dooku pushed anakin however the TK that could have been a wave was when anakin pushed the sand into dookus face however it's questionable on what ability it was. Yes it hit instantly but look at the distance they were less than 3ft apart and you call that proof for always instant. They were less than 3ft apart. For qui gon Jinn yes it was a little grater but still not 50ft not even even 20ft. So check and mate.

1b. Yes they have being right there on top of the person or thing and then when qui begin used the force push it only k of eked one droid and did you see the hand movement, it was like a wave in which it should have hit all the droids except it only hit one. Exactly you can put them in the same category so stop using force choke as a supplement forc force push. They do to separate things.

1c. If you use different TK abilities other than force push they all show that they can be dodged or have to cover distance or need to be at least close enough to the opponent to use. If what you say is true about anakin and obi wans force push or force wave than this proves that the force is seceptable to distance and can be avoided. Please there are plenty other examples of how any aggressive force power takes time.

1d. Protego not being able to block the force is also speculation. When it comes down to spells spells are in some way shape or form is energy. Protego blocks energy. The force is energy in a matter of speaking. Also anakin and obi wan were able to block a force push from dooku with their hands just saying so I'm sure that dumbledore with his arms up and a protego charm mostly will block it.

2. Those shields are meant to block blaster bolts. Captain Rex was able to walk into a sheild, the rebels on dantoine were able to put little grenades and genes in those shields. Check and mate.

It's one thing do something basic, like a force push. It's another to pull of the feat yoda pulled off. He sat down and concentrated on that. That type of feat was never shown again not to my knowledge of yoda without that concentration. If it wasn't necessary for him to do that then why did he do it. Yodas need put concentrate and focus his energy is basically almost constant. Yes he can force pull objects without much focus. However he can't pull of feats like that on a wimb. He is so used to having the time to concentrate.

2a. Force barrier

3. Oh no. We need 50ft proof. The biggest one is qui goes and that distance was not 50. A lot less than 50.

4. Ok then

5. Concentration is not a necessity for small feats such as simple force pushes. Well at least not a lot of concentration. However feats such as apparently lifting two clone troopers of the edge of a cliff, moving a republic tank off a cliff, spinning a senate pod,lifting three rocks, arching an iron pillar all require concentration. Most of these are performed by yoda and he needed concentration and if he didn't get it he struggled and left himself wide open for attack.

5a. Re watch the season 6 battle they clearly had their arms up so with that had enough time to raise their arms even at such a short distance and don't say it was a force wave that was clearly a push. Also in that same duel minsiter long was actually almost not affected by the force push or wave of anakin and obi wan, then all of his minions just got right back up, so it appears that the force doesn't always KO someone. They were none force wielders. Your argument of dumbledore getting KO'd is now debunked.

6. Yea.

7a. Dumbledore during order of the Phoenix when he used expelliarmus against voldemrot. He didn't need to say the words and yes he swung his arm but it was to get Harry out of the way and then he had to swing all the way back around, or how crabbe was able to create a gigantic fiendfyre without words or any known gestures, or how voldemrot is known to do non verbal magic than we see him kill someone without gestures in deathly hallows part 2, and he has displayed being able to use a ad kedavra without words. Long red stream is what i said to represent expelliarmus in the red stream form.

7b. Didn't say a force lift couldn't as that is what it's made for. However it's not that hard to lift someone with force choke, all you need to do is lift your hands like with force lift.

This was a great argument check mate.

Poor sidious no force storms

1. "You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship." -Yoda

The force is an energy that surrounds everything and jedi manipulate said energy to produce effects. When they lift things, it is simply them directly manilpulating the energy already surrounding the object that they are trying to manipulate, thus is not affected by the rule of distance or LOS.

1a. You're using "check and mate" wrong. You only say it when you bring in irrefutable logic backed by proof (such as when I disproved the assertion that all force TK attacks behavethe same) and obvious research. Which you obviously didn't do if you think the insta-hit TK move Qui Gon did on the droid in the hangar was from 3-4 feet away. Specs state that the ramp (w/c Qui Gon was right on top of) to wing tip distance of around 7 meters. This is not even counting the fact that he was force pushing at an angle (lengthening distances) and the safety allowances needed from ship wing tip to fighter craft. Over 20 feet is a minimum. Safer to say 25-30 TBH. And it hit instantly.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Naboo_Royal.png

Wait, is your new argument "apperate out of the way"?? Are you abandoning your "protego" argument?

1b. Hand wave is irrelevant. The point of contention is about whether or not the force requires travel time to affect a target. It was over 20 feet.

And it hitting one droid actually proves my point that not all force TK attacks behave the same.

1c. BS. Other than the 2 instances which showed similar characteristics (most likely a force wave), every other force usage has been undodgeable by the TK'd target and hit instantly. And having examples that take time DOES NOT prove that ALL force powers take. The problem with the "universal behavior" argument, is that, once I present even one instance where it didn't apply, then the argument falls apart. Learn your logic.

1d. Burden of proof. You need to prove that Protego can block TK. All I needed to prove (via Burden of proof) was that the force did not behave like physical objects (w/c I did), thus is not bound by rules governing physical objects. I do not have to prove that it can't block a force attack, you have to prove that it can be (don't have prove a negative).

Um. Horrible logic. Precog helps them predict a force hit. They are jedis that can resist such hits. Dumby has no precog and is not a jedi. Force push is invisible and, thus, he wouldn't see it coming, hits instantly and hits from any direction, thus he won't be able to block or dodge it. Horrible, horrible argument right here.

2. Blaster bolts are particle weapons, meaning they strike with both energy (heat) and force (impact). Shields deflect these. It is just one type of shielding that the force is not susceptible to.

He did it because it helps. Simple as that. Law of logic already proves that this other "universal behavior" argument you presented have already been invalidated. At this point, you're just in denial.

Force not following LOS = cannot be blocked by protego for multiple reasons (none which you debunked). Accept it and move on.

2a. Geez, you're just throwing around names to see which one sticks aren't you? Non canon ability from what I know.

3. Demanding additional proof over something we both already agreed upon several pages back. Good job trying to flip flop. Sorry, but doesn't work that way. You agreed on it and unless you concede, I don't have to do crap. I could provide a counter argument with proof, but I choose not to reward bad behavior.

4. Alright.

5. KOing an old man with a push is a small feat. Thus, no concentration is needed. Glad we agree. 👆

5a. Nope. Rewatch it on slow mo. Look at the guards behind them. They were already being pushed back BEFORE their arms went up defensively (pre-force push, Anakin already had his arms in front of him). They just resisted it long enough to raise their arms.

http://i.imgur.com/6ycp5xMl.jpg

Wrong. It KO'd all save the minister, the rest needed several seconds to wake up or stayed down completely. Just because one managed to sit up after a force wave, doesn't debunk the fact Dumby would be KO'd by it. Ppl have survived getting shot in the head, doesn't mean you can argue that Dumby would survive a head shot. Learn your logic. I don't have to prove "always", I just have to prove "a very high chance of".

6. Ok.

7. Pointing a wand is a gesture, it needs you to raise your arm to point it at a target. It is funny that you would see aiming one's hand as a gesture but seem to feel that aiming a wand is not when both LITERALLY require the same body movement. 😐 double standards much?

7b. Whaat? "You just need to lift your arms to lift someone dozens of feet with a force choke??" Oookayy... Why don't you go force choke someone and lift your arms, see if they get lifted over a dozen feet in the air....

A force lift is literally a force push pushing you up instead of backwards, only more carefully. Glad we agree that force abilities bypass obstacles, tho. 👆

You seriously think "force choke + lift can bypass obstacles but a basic lift cannot (Even when I have direct proof you are wrong)" is a good checkmate argument??? Really?? 😛

PS. Gotta admit, tho. Your arguments are getting better. And through our discussions, I actually figured out a way for Dumby to convincingly secure a few wins (I started off wanting to rep Dumby), tho I would still give Yoda the majority.

Won't tell you until you figure it out, tho.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
You have some serious issues to work out. All of that is proof that proves that the fight was to convert anakin you just dislike sidious so much. Whether he added it in later it's in the commentary as proof of the battle. It doesn't matter when you add anything as lon as its in there. Ask yourself this do you know what proof is apparently not. With all that fact case closed sidious threw the fight. He knows about padme and anakin said turmoil, he already tested anakin with the fight against dooku, sidious being overpowered was just him being disarmed, also the book says that palpatine was bending his lightsaber which means like you said he could have but why he didn't, then Lucas says he faked weakness you idiot. All of these things coincide with sidious winning. Look at this.

Yoda is greater than dooku who is stated to be on windus lvl of not a slight superior or the other way around but either way it's hard to tell. Yoda is also stated to be able to best windu. Vaapad wouldn't come into play as yoda has no true inner darkness for windu to draw on. Sidious matched yoda to a tee in lightsaber combat. So with all that the book itself even says that with windu being in 100% vaapad it would only be a stalemate. Also if sidious didn't fake weakness how come he shouted out power unlimited power and was basically killing windu if he was according to you tired. Then when he was done how was he able to just get right up and talk to anakin in his normal fashion? You have no idea how to accept others proof. Reevaluate yourself and come back to me when you have something worthy to say.

You honestly have NO clue what proof is. Literally NONE of that is proof. Lucas Literally in multiple places says Sids TRIED TO KILL MACE. There is simply no getting around this fact. You can't try and kill somebody but throw a fight. Those are two polar opposite things. Thus they cannot and will not ever go together. It's impossible for it to be so. Being that it was NEVER EVER stated he threw the fight we can safely and convincingly say that the he tried to kill Mace stated several times... stands and stands without question.

No you moron, he's only saying that he wasn't totally deprived of energy. He feigned being TOTALLY weak and unable to continue. THAT IS INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO LOSE A FIGHT YOU IMBECILE. Those aren't the same thing at all. He simply knew he was on the losing end of the fight and the only hope he had was for Anakin to help. Thus, he needed to act like he was totally deprived of energy, when in fact in wasn't. That is what the feigning refers to and nothing more. That isn't throwing a fight.

Next, yoda DID overpower sids and disarm him as well. They both did. So, I'm not sure why you get this Sids matched Yoda in sabers... he didn't.

1. if that's the case then why do force waves move slowly then if they are an extension of the force an must be felt around all living things.

actually it is as seen by force wave and force lightning. Are these not part of the force. Check Mate.

1a. oh snap. I did use it wrong oh snap lol. I believed I used it correctly in the previous post but will try to use it correctly. I will have to re watch that seen but even if it was 7 meters, 50 ft is actually 15+ meters. where does it say that was 7 meters again.

no not abandoning the protego argument as it stays strong however apparition is a reasonable argument as it is in most cases instant.

1b. everything is susceptible to distance as force wave is susceptible to distance and apparently so to is force push as seen by dooku and how some jedi block force attacks with their arms and lightsabers.

1c. force lightning force psuh force wave take time. also if it happens even twice It can be called into question on what the universal behavior is. also force pushes are closed ranged or have been used in conjunction with force lift ala yoda vs droids in episode 1 of TCW.

1d. its impossible to prove that protego can or cant as they exist in two different universes with different rules and behaviors so with that protego blocking kinetic energy is speculation and only an assumption. also arms and lightsaber can block the force but a powerful protection spell.

2. The shield of the droidicas are specifically made to protect against blaster bolts so a jedi using the force to penetrate is shields are not a large feat as protego is meant to protect against anything, as seen by ranging to physical objects spells. basically its meant to block anything.

Not having to see to use the force basically mean what is says. you don't have to see that is all that means. it doesn't go to being able to bypass shields.

Look it up its actually called force barrier and you wil find a picture of a scene from TCWof when it was used.

3. why did I agree with that when it has no showings of being able to attack instantly at 50ft. is there a showing or are you relying on this agreement to better suit your on needs. so if there is prof I would like to see it since that is how this forum works until then are agreement has been terminated on that score.

5. no we don't agree on that. In the duel with dooku vs Anakin and obi wan the combined might of Anakin and obi wan didn't ko the peop;le on the other side and the guy who dooku killed has no none durability feats and look at him, he is a scawny dude with a gigantic head with no durability feats.

also protego can block the force as though it isn't magic it is however energy and protego has been shown to be able to deflect and block energy and at 50 ft oor possibly while yoda is still running what is to stop Dumbledore for already having a shield up. also force barrier or force shield can block the force. so can the human arms as well so why cant protego block it. In the description it does say a trained force sensitives meaning that force users have a way of combating TK which could lead to force barrier/Force shield which also could translate to proof that protego can block force push.

ok again get that precog stuuf out of here I don't care how many times you bring it up. how is precog going to save yoda from immobulus. it cant.if jedi were such masters of the ability why didn't they use it to save there own freaking lives. why didn't qui gon use it to save himself from darth maul. why didn't darth maul use it against sidious. why didn't dooku use it against talzin to save himself. there are plenty of instances in which precog could and should have been used. also if sidious is a master of it than why didn't he forsee vader throwing him from a balcony. See what I mean so get that precog out of here.

based on that slow mo pick from my perception it only proves that a force pushed needs time to get to its opponent as based on that Anakin had time to lift his hands and the others were just fine for a second or two not falling at all. I saw one doing what Anakin was doing but he others were still standing. also the "has a high chance of happening" means that there still is a chance that Dumbledore can survive it. Based on yodas feats and the fact that the minister who has no durability feats what so ever was able to be just fine shows that Dumbledore has a chance to survive the force push.

&. ok I was trying to figure out what you specifacly meant by gestures. I didn't know if you were the specific type, no wi know what you mean. if that's the case than yes some spells need gestures and all the ones we have seen Dumbledore would need sme sort of gesture. however the gesture needed wont take long for Dumbledore long to do as he doesn't need to say the word. the gesture and time needed to perform this spell are not time consuming.

well if only I was a sith I would because I got a couple of people on my list. hear me out though. Ventress with two instances, all in the episode the night sisters, she lifted her arms when force choking Kenobi and Anakin, lifted her arms when force choking four smugglers. also force choke is a variation of telekinesis which would allow you to lift someone it only the basic need of telekinesis is tolift things. Add choke to it you get lifting and choking a person.

I didnnt say a force lift couldn't bypass an object. if the person can do than it can.

thank you for the compliment. I know there are however I do believe Dumbledore can take the majority victories however it wouldn't be by much. at best it would 6-7/10 wins.

1. Because it is the nature of the attack, (like lightning shooting from one's hand) it can't be an aoe nor a wave if it only hits specific target and does not emanate. Again, you mistake "special instance" for "universal behavior". Which has been disproven. My argument has always been "not all force attacks behave the same". And your very argument supports my case.

You really need to hold of on the "checkmate" replies until you are sure your logic is airtight. It is cringe-inducing every time you use it wrong. 😐

1a. Never said the Qui Gon instance was 50, did say 20+ (25-30 being the more logical amount, given the circumstances). Look at the schematics I posted. It hit instantly. A force move that hit at the same distance as Dooku's in the desert episode I mentioned but both are travelling completely different speeds. Reinforcing my argument that not all force attacks behave the same.

A force push hits the target directly, so he won't be able to apperate to dodge it. Even a force wave (or whatever that slow force attack was) that can be dodged won't be dodged by Dumby as it is invisible and he won't really know it's coming.

1b. You're still stuck with the "all force moves behave the same" argument that already has been disproven. Time to move on.

1c. Force wave is fast but takes time enough to make it avoidable, Force lightning is a stream of lightning but travels at lightning speed. It may need to "travel" a distance, but is too fast to matter in a fight. Those 2 examples alone differ drastically in nature and speed. Yet you seem to believe you can categorize them as having the same behavior. Force push, like any TK move, is energy manipulated around the target itself and, thus, no longer needs to travel any distance. Again, you demonstrate poor logical thinking here.

1d. Not my fault that you cannot prove it. But the same logical limiting factor that prevents you from asserting Protego working on the force also limits me from claiming that force absorb can contain and reflect magic or that TK can block/deflect magical spells. That is how evidence vs speculation works. You can keep claiming forever that Protego blocks force attacks but, without proof, I am well within my rights to categorically dismiss your claim. As you have already admitted that you cannot prove it, it is time to drop this argument of yours.

2. Hate to go wiki on you, but the wiki (w/c cites the Ep1 Visual Dictionary as the source) describes droideka shielding as follows:

"These personal energy shields projected could endure much punishment, capable of deflecting or absorbing virtually any manner of energy or projectile fire up to the level of a light artillery bolt, as well as rebuffing lightsaber blades and physical attacks"

2a. I did look it up, but from the source material (w/c I make a point to double check on every wiki I reference), it looked more like they didn't know how to categorize the Clone Wars gas-shielding instance and just defaulted it to "force barrier". Dubious canonicity from my perspective. Although, at this point, not even sure why this is being discussed, Why are we arguing about this again?

3. Don't reply if you can't honor an agreement, not about to degenerate this debate by 5+ pages again and start arguing based on range of abilities.... facepalm as I can just as easily scrutinize your immobulus argument by its range as well...

5. His durability "feat" is right there. He managed to get up, while his men were KO'd. The fall he suffered is much more powerful than what Dumby has endured. An old man is pretty much a scrawny humanoid durability-wise. And as it KO'd multiple "scrawny humanoids", leaving only one stunned long enough to be finished off, this whole reply pretty much didn't help you.

Droideka shields (which are designed to block energy attacks at the least) could not block the force, so your "energy blocking" argument falls on its face.

Protego cannot block force attacks.

Because most jedi's precog is limited to only a few seconds (not enough time to stop an ambush if you're already surrounded) and many (like Ezra) don't always get exact info and precog still requires that you are fast enough to do something about your fate, Yoda's, however was the strongest out there and the only reason he didn't see Order 66 was that Palpatine was "creating a shadow", blocking his visions (yes, they can use the force to blur each others' precog it seems). But the reason they seem so agile/precise is their precog. This is mentioned many times in the movies and the animated series. It is the reason why they can block blaster shots even while blindfold or deflect it back at the target. How do you not know this?

Which is the problem with your confirmation bias. You deny evidence even when it is presented right in front of you. I already posted the timestamped frame where they were hit by the force of the push. The force takes no time to get to its target, but the target's body obviously still needs a tiny moment of time to be floored by it. Anakin and Obi resisted it, giving them time to raise their arms. Hey, I can live with a 1 in 15 chance of Dumby surviving a force push. Doesn't help your chances much, tho. Heck, adding in the aliens Dooku KO'd with HIS force push, makes it around 1 in 25. Even if you base his survivability on the showing of the alien guy, he'd still be stunned long enough to be finished off. At most, it gives you an irrelevant chance in 10 within a 10-round based forum VS fight.

Instances where he uses spells to attack his opponent took a second or two at the least from what I remember, what attack did he initiate that was instant? Regardless, a force push doesn't take time either as it is simply "willing a target" to push->KO them.

So you accept that a force choke is TK?

TK bypassing obstacles/objects (like a shield) is one of the main reasons Protego can't block it.

Let's bottom line here, buddy. We both have to admit that our entire debate has been based on "scripting" the fight in order for our characters to win. This is how it has been going the past several pages. And as fun as arguing it has been, for the benefit of making sense of this whole debate, we must acknowledge that "scripting" fights is a poor way of proving a win. At best, it creates scenarious that we can use to improve the chances of the characters we rep by establishing the styles/abilities groundwork.

Yoda, in my opinion, is just more combat effective than Dumby due to his reaction speed/precog advantage. We know they both can take either one down. We know Dumby has the power and versatility advantage here. But power is meaningless as they both have more than enough power to take the other down. And versatility only works if you have the opportunity to use it.

In the end, Yoda is too fast and can optimally plan his attack due to precog. And magic defending against the force has as much definitive evidence as the force defending against magic. When both can take each other down right away, and neither can defend against the other, it's the person that strikes first and strikes best that would win.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Because it is the nature of the attack, (like lightning shooting from one's hand) it can't be an aoe nor a wave if it only hits specific target and does not emanate. Again, you mistake "special instance" for "universal behavior". Which has been disproven. My argument has always been "not all force attacks behave the same". And your very argument supports my case.

You really need to hold of on the "checkmate" replies until you are sure your logic is airtight. It is cringe-inducing every time you use it wrong. 😐

1a. Never said the Qui Gon instance was 50, did say 20+ (25-30 being the more logical amount, given the circumstances). Look at the schematics I posted. It hit instantly. A force move that hit at the same distance as Dooku's in the desert episode I mentioned but both are travelling completely different speeds. Reinforcing my argument that not all force attacks behave the same.

A force push hits the target directly, so he won't be able to apperate to dodge it. Even a force wave (or whatever that slow force attack was) that can be dodged won't be dodged by Dumby as it is invisible and he won't really know it's coming.

1b. You're still stuck with the "all force moves behave the same" argument that already has been disproven. Time to move on.

1c. Force wave is fast but takes time enough to make it avoidable, Force lightning is a stream of lightning but travels at lightning speed. It may need to "travel" a distance, but is too fast to matter in a fight. Those 2 examples alone differ drastically in nature and speed. Yet you seem to believe you can categorize them as having the same behavior. Force push, like any TK move, is energy manipulated around the target itself and, thus, no longer needs to travel any distance. Again, you demonstrate poor logical thinking here.

1d. Not my fault that you cannot prove it. But the same logical limiting factor that prevents you from asserting Protego working on the force also limits me from claiming that force absorb can contain and reflect magic or that TK can block/deflect magical spells. That is how evidence vs speculation works. You can keep claiming forever that Protego blocks force attacks but, without proof, I am well within my rights to categorically dismiss your claim. As you have already admitted that you cannot prove it, it is time to drop this argument of yours.

2. Hate to go wiki on you, but the wiki (w/c cites the Ep1 Visual Dictionary as the source) describes droideka shielding as follows:

"These personal energy shields projected could endure much punishment, capable of deflecting or absorbing virtually any manner of energy or projectile fire up to the level of a light artillery bolt, as well as rebuffing lightsaber blades and physical attacks"

2a. I did look it up, but from the source material (w/c I make a point to double check on every wiki I reference), it looked more like they didn't know how to categorize the Clone Wars gas-shielding instance and just defaulted it to "force barrier". Dubious canonicity from my perspective. Although, at this point, not even sure why this is being discussed, Why are we arguing about this again?

3. Don't reply if you can't honor an agreement, not about to degenerate this debate by 5+ pages again and start arguing based on range of abilities.... facepalm as I can just as easily scrutinize your immobulus argument by its range as well...

5. His durability "feat" is right there. He managed to get up, while his men were KO'd. The fall he suffered is much more powerful than what Dumby has endured. An old man is pretty much a scrawny humanoid durability-wise. And as it KO'd multiple "scrawny humanoids", leaving only one stunned long enough to be finished off, this whole reply pretty much didn't help you.

Droideka shields (which are designed to block energy attacks at the least) could not block the force, so your "energy blocking" argument falls on its face.

Protego cannot block force attacks.

Because most jedi's precog is limited to only a few seconds (not enough time to stop an ambush if you're already surrounded) and many (like Ezra) don't always get exact info and precog still requires that you are fast enough to do something about your fate, Yoda's, however was the strongest out there and the only reason he didn't see Order 66 was that Palpatine was "creating a shadow", blocking his visions (yes, they can use the force to blur each others' precog it seems). But the reason they seem so agile/precise is their precog. This is mentioned many times in the movies and the animated series. It is the reason why they can block blaster shots even while blindfold or deflect it back at the target. How do you not know this?

Which is the problem with your confirmation bias. You deny evidence even when it is presented right in front of you. I already posted the timestamped frame where they were hit by the force of the push. The force takes no time to get to its target, but the target's body obviously still needs a tiny moment of time to be floored by it. Anakin and Obi resisted it, giving them time to raise their arms. Hey, I can live with a 1 in 15 chance of Dumby surviving a force push. Doesn't help your chances much, tho. Heck, adding in the aliens Dooku KO'd with HIS force push, makes it around 1 in 25. Even if you base his survivability on the showing of the alien guy, he'd still be stunned long enough to be finished off. At most, it gives you an irrelevant chance in 10 within a 10-round based forum VS fight.

Instances where he uses spells to attack his opponent took a second or two at the least from what I remember, what attack did he initiate that was instant? Regardless, a force push doesn't take time either as it is simply "willing a target" to push->KO them.

So you accept that a force choke is TK?

TK bypassing obstacles/objects (like a shield) is one of the main reasons Protego can't block it.

Let's bottom line here, buddy. We both have to admit that our entire debate has been based on "scripting" the fight in order for our characters to win. This is how it has been going the past several pages. And as fun as arguing it has been, for the benefit of making sense of this whole debate, we must acknowledge that "scripting" fights is a poor way of proving a win. At best, it creates scenarious that we can use to improve the chances of the characters we rep by establishing the styles/abilities groundwork.

Yoda, in my opinion, is just more combat effective than Dumby due to his reaction speed/precog advantage. We know they both can take either one down. We know Dumby has the power and versatility advantage here. But power is meaningless as they both have more than enough power to take the other down. And versatility only works if you have the opportunity to use it.

In the end, Yoda is too fast and can optimally plan his attack due to precog. And magic defending against the force has as much definitive evidence as the force defending against magic. When both can take each other down right away, and neither can defend against the other, it's the person that strikes first and strikes best that would win.

I will honor our agreement but more importantly I am not going to reply to the rest of your post from the second to last one up be chase I agree with everything from then down. The second post from the bottom. I have never agreed with you so much before now. I agree that in terms of combative usefulness both are valuable as in their respective universes both are powerful and can handle even the best of opponents however yoda does have the speed strength agility and other physical traits edge. However I would want to point out that dumbledore isn't the strongest or faster but he is by no means crippled and slow. I once again agree in terms of versatility and power dumbledore has the edge there and it most likely will come down to versatility vs speed. Ultimately this battle could go either way with dumbledore having multiple angles while it is possible yoda could use his speed to penetrate his guard I say possibly. With this I withdraw my argument that protego can block the force as there is no sufficient proof that either can block the other. Also the force push ability emanates from the energy around a persons hand right? So with this I still believe dumbledore can win, however I now balance it out that who ever wins will win 5-6/10 battles as it could go either way. Also tell me if you think this person is realistic about this video. https://youtu.be/hKWXtlgQDac

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You honestly have NO clue what proof is. Literally NONE of that is proof. Lucas Literally in multiple places says Sids TRIED TO KILL MACE. There is simply no getting around this fact. You can't try and kill somebody but throw a fight. Those are two polar opposite things. Thus they cannot and will not ever go together. It's impossible for it to be so. Being that it was NEVER EVER stated he threw the fight we can safely and convincingly say that the he tried to kill Mace stated several times... stands and stands without question.

No you moron, he's only saying that he wasn't totally deprived of energy. He feigned being TOTALLY weak and unable to continue. THAT IS INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO LOSE A FIGHT YOU IMBECILE. Those aren't the same thing at all. He simply knew he was on the losing end of the fight and the only hope he had was for Anakin to help. Thus, he needed to act like he was totally deprived of energy, when in fact in wasn't. That is what the feigning refers to and nothing more. That isn't throwing a fight.

Next, yoda DID overpower sids and disarm him as well. They both did. So, I'm not sure why you get this Sids matched Yoda in sabers... he didn't.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You honestly have NO clue what proof is. Literally NONE of that is proof. Lucas Literally in multiple places says Sids TRIED TO KILL MACE. There is simply no getting around this fact. You can't try and kill somebody but throw a fight. Those are two polar opposite things. Thus they cannot and will not ever go together. It's impossible for it to be so. Being that it was NEVER EVER stated he threw the fight we can safely and convincingly say that the he tried to kill Mace stated several times... stands and stands without question.

No you moron, he's only saying that he wasn't totally deprived of energy. He feigned being TOTALLY weak and unable to continue. THAT IS INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO LOSE A FIGHT YOU IMBECILE. Those aren't the same thing at all. He simply knew he was on the losing end of the fight and the only hope he had was for Anakin to help. Thus, he needed to act like he was totally deprived of energy, when in fact in wasn't. That is what the feigning refers to and nothing more. That isn't throwing a fight.

Next, yoda DID overpower sids and disarm him as well. They both did. So, I'm not sure why you get this Sids matched Yoda in sabers... he didn't.

First off you need to come down. Secondly stop thinking your evidence is the universal thing. Yes I know Lucas said that but that doesn't negate everything else Lucas said. He says that sidious was faking weakness, he says that that is 100% fact no way around that. He tells us that palaptine knows anakin wants him alive in order to save padme. Also in that battle sidious could have killed him whenever he wanted. Windy left himself open enough times. Why don't we see sidious amazing command of the force in that duel besides force lightning? Lucas says neither side of the argument on whether or not sidious threw the fight or not it's up for fan assumption. However he does leave hints that would lead to sidious throwing the fight and then the novel also says that with 100% vaapda it would only be a stalemate. Also sidious is a master duelist along the tier of yoda, he wouldn't be baited so easily to the window like that. People will say sidious didn't even know anakin was coming. That is BS. The novelization and common sense basically tell us this. The novel says windu knew anakin was coming a mile away so sidious would also be able to as well. Also Lucas says that palaptine already tested anakin to see if he was worthy of being his apprentice and then said that that scene was anakin said turn to the dark side. You need to calm down and reevaluate yourself.

You expect me to be offended by a moron like yourself. 😂

Anyway I've seen deleted scenes of ROTS I will look again but sidious being disarmed was not in the movie or deleted scenes. The wiki that is officially cannon says that sidious found his moves being hampered so changed tactics, not that he was disarmed. So something that didn't make it into the movies and not the deleted scenes vs a cannon description of the battle. Either way it doesn't mean yoda was better as sidious was at a disadvantage in terms of sabers as the small podium stopped his movements so he had to stay in stationary position so the fact that he could basically match yoda shows that he is on yoda said lvl.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I will honor our agreement but more importantly I am not going to reply to the rest of your post from the second to last one up be chase I agree with everything from then down. The second post from the bottom. I have never agreed with you so much before now. I agree that in terms of combative usefulness both are valuable as in their respective universes both are powerful and can handle even the best of opponents however yoda does have the speed strength agility and other physical traits edge. However I would want to point out that dumbledore isn't the strongest or faster but he is by no means crippled and slow. I once again agree in terms of versatility and power dumbledore has the edge there and it most likely will come down to versatility vs speed. Ultimately this battle could go either way with dumbledore having multiple angles while it is possible yoda could use his speed to penetrate his guard I say possibly. With this I withdraw my argument that protego can block the force as there is no sufficient proof that either can block the other. Also the force push ability emanates from the energy around a persons hand right? So with this I still believe dumbledore can win, however I now balance it out that who ever wins will win 5-6/10 battles as it could go either way. Also tell me if you think this person is realistic about this video. https://youtu.be/hKWXtlgQDac

Fair and balanced assertions. Will agree that Dumby for his age/build isn't a slouch as well. Won't argue with any of what you said, actually, cept maybe the nature of the force push. I feel like (from showings) that it is more manipulation of energy around the target than from hand to target.

I still believe it that Yoda takes it 7/10, but your assertion of a 5-6 win that goes either way is fair and cannot argue with it. So I will chalk it to differing, but reasonably-based opinions at this point.

Very clever editing on that youtube video. Haha. I feel like force lightning shouldn't be able to block AK but how he presented it was very entertaining.

Was a great and fun debate, buddy. Had an excellent time and hope you had fun, too. Respect. 👆

🙂

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
First off you need to come down. Secondly stop thinking your evidence is the universal thing. Yes I know Lucas said that but that doesn't negate everything else Lucas said. He says that sidious was faking weakness, he says that that is 100% fact no way around that. He tells us that palaptine knows anakin wants him alive in order to save padme. Also in that battle sidious could have killed him whenever he wanted. Windy left himself open enough times. Why don't we see sidious amazing command of the force in that duel besides force lightning? Lucas says neither side of the argument on whether or not sidious threw the fight or not it's up for fan assumption. However he does leave hints that would lead to sidious throwing the fight and then the novel also says that with 100% vaapda it would only be a stalemate. Also sidious is a master duelist along the tier of yoda, he wouldn't be baited so easily to the window like that. People will say sidious didn't even know anakin was coming. That is BS. The novelization and common sense basically tell us this. The novel says windu knew anakin was coming a mile away so sidious would also be able to as well. Also Lucas says that palaptine already tested anakin to see if he was worthy of being his apprentice and then said that that scene was anakin said turn to the dark side. You need to calm down and reevaluate yourself.

You expect me to be offended by a moron like yourself. 😂

Anyway I've seen deleted scenes of ROTS I will look again but sidious being disarmed was not in the movie or deleted scenes. The wiki that is officially cannon says that sidious found his moves being hampered so changed tactics, not that he was disarmed. So something that didn't make it into the movies and not the deleted scenes vs a cannon description of the battle. Either way it doesn't mean yoda was better as sidious was at a disadvantage in terms of sabers as the small podium stopped his movements so he had to stay in stationary position so the fact that he could basically match yoda shows that he is on yoda said lvl.

You're not understanding something. Lucas and Stover both said Sids tried to kill Mace, that isn't up for debate. They were crystal clear in this regard. On the contrary, they NEVER, not once stated Sids tried to throw the fight. That is why I say you have literally no clue what proof is, like none. All the proof is on my side, all you have is conjecture from other Sids apologists

No again, the script makes it clear that Yoda unleashed a furious attack and made Palps lose his balance and disarmed him. Again, this is reinforced by the movie when we see him without a saber. Sids was disarmed by Yoda and Mace, so no, he's not their equal based on the movies. Sure he's good, real good, one of the best, but he was disarmed by two Jedi in one on one combat.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Fair and balanced assertions. Will agree that Dumby for his age/build isn't a slouch as well. Won't argue with any of what you said, actually, cept maybe the nature of the force push. I feel like (from showings) that it is more manipulation of energy around the target than from hand to target.

I still believe it that Yoda takes it 7/10, but your assertion of a 5-6 win that goes either way is fair and cannot argue with it. So I will chalk it to differing, but reasonably-based opinions at this point.

Very clever editing on that youtube video. Haha. I feel like force lightning shouldn't be able to block AK but how he presented it was very entertaining.

Was a great and fun debate, buddy. Had an excellent time and hope you had fun, too. Respect. 👆

🙂

Yes I hope to see you in future debates now I have to debate with this dude on this thread about the mace vs sidious fight on whether it was a fake or not.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yes I hope to see you in future debates now I have to debate with this dude on this thread about the mace vs sidious fight on whether it was a fake or not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're not understanding something. Lucas and Stover both said Sids tried to kill Mace, that isn't up for debate. They were crystal clear in this regard. On the contrary, they NEVER, not once stated Sids tried to throw the fight. That is why I say you have literally no clue what proof is, like none. All the proof is on my side, all you have is conjecture from other Sids apologists

No again, the script makes it clear that Yoda unleashed a furious attack and made Palps lose his balance and disarmed him. Again, this is reinforced by the movie when we see him without a saber. Sids was disarmed by Yoda and Mace, so no, he's not their equal based on the movies. Sure he's good, real good, one of the best, but he was disarmed by two Jedi in one on one combat.

Ok you are not understanding something. Ok we know that they said that we watched the commentary. However that does not detract from everything else they have said. They never not once said sidious didn't throw the fight either also leaving little Easter eggs that he did so deal with it. So one lime finishes all vs proof, inferences, and common sense. I think you might be a little crazy in the head.

Actually there are several different reasons to why palaptine didn't have his blade at the time. One being that seeing as neither could overpower the other which is what was seen in the actual movie, sidious decided to switch tactics and go to his mastery of the force where is where he truly shines. Also something that never made onto the big screen the novelization or the deleted scenes. Hmm and you wonder why most fans don't role with it. So it seems that the majority fall with me.