Originally posted by chickenlover98
ok. the bible was written by man. clearly we can see that man has attributed their own characteristics and faults to "god" its evident that they tried to create a being who in their minds was perfect, yet we clearly see many flaws
Two questions:
1. While acknowledging that the Bible was clearly written by human authors, how does this disprove the Christian assertion that it was also inspired by God?
2. By what standard (beyond your own subjective opinion) have you determined that the God of the Bible is flawed?
Originally posted by Tim Routok ill go by your logic on this one. humans are full of sin, and therefore fallible. anything a human says may be twisted or taken out of context or outright lies. therefore one cannot consider the bible a truthful "word of god." it disproves it because there is no proof of god, which you have admitted before. whether it was "inspired" means nothing, seeing as it was not written by god himself, it cannot be taken as the literal word of god. now to say the ten commandments are the word of god is acceptable(if i believed in them) because they were handed to moses, directly from god.
Two questions:1. While acknowledging that the Bible was clearly written by human authors, how does this disprove the Christian assertion that it was also inspired by God?
2. By what standard (beyond your own subjective opinion) have you determined that the God of the Bible is flawed?
2. i have based my subjective opinion off of logic and those around me. it is clear that he has many flaws, such as love, and incomplete justice, and many out right cases of unfairness. never would a perfect or loving god ever hurt or torment its own creations(story of job) or force them to be slaves(israelites) when he himself could have easily freed them. a perfect god would not need worship to prove himself. nor would a perfect god even create anything because it is perfect. you may say perfection is subjective, but then what in this world isnt? it is clear that he cannot satisfy everyone, which yet again nullifies him the chance of being perfect. it is very clear how imperfect your god really is
Originally posted by chickenlover98Totally agree with you there.
ok ill go by your logic on this one. humans are full of sin, and therefore fallible. anything a human says may be twisted or taken out of context or outright lies. therefore one cannot consider the bible a truthful "word of god." it disproves it because there is no proof of god, which you have admitted before. whether it was "inspired" means nothing, seeing as it was not written by god himself, it cannot be taken as the literal word of god. now to say the ten commandments are the word of god is acceptable(if i believed in them) because they were handed to moses, directly from god.
Originally posted by chickenlover98Totally disagree with you there. It all balances out in the afterlife...God is eventually merciful.
2. i have based my subjective opinion off of logic and those around me. it is clear that he has many flaws, such as love, and incomplete justice, and many out right cases of unfairness. never would a perfect or loving god ever hurt or torment its own creations(story of job) or force them to be slaves(israelites) when he himself could have easily freed them.
Originally posted by Dreampantheri believe so, i've seen way to many unmoral and evil things done to this world and justified by "it's god's will, or god told me to do it" just think about all the garbage people were fed during dark ages, did you also know that Pompie and the ancient world was more advanced than the dark ages (which came something like 5,000 years after them) and it's true, there are fountains in pompie and remains of simple but working plumbing. the church outlawed all this stuff and said they were "sinful" we'd probally be much more advanced if most technological advances were illegal (like bathing more than every sunday) like already have robotic limbs in full circulation and commonly used as opposed to a year before clinical trials
This is just a thought I have been playing with recently:While I consider myself spiritual, I am not very religious. The other day I watched An Inconvenient Truth and I started wondering: Are we avoiding responsibility by placing our faith in a Higher Power? Be it Buddha, Jesus, Allah or Jah, The Great Turtle or The Source, should we not rather accept responsibility for our actions here on Earth, instead of praying to some deity to come and save us?
Is it possible that, like children who expect their parents to come and save them from the messes they get into, we are blithely destroying our environment simply because we have misguidedly and collectively decided that since there IS a Higher Power, it is that Higher Power's responsibility to come and rescue us?
Would it not be better for all of us to become adults and, like adults, to accept the consequences of our actions? When I think about it, I wonder if the world would not be a better place with a little less praying and a little more action.
WE are destroying our environment. WE are going to suffer because of our thoughtless, inconsiderate lifestyles of consume, consume, consume. WE are depleting our resources. WE are causing global warming.
It reminds me a bit of an old tale (I can't remember where I heard it):
Once upon a time there was a very religious man, living in a valley. A warning was posted, that a storm was coming and the valley would be flooded. The man stated that his God would save him. He refused to leave the valley, or take any precautions, placing his faith in his Lord.
Soon enough, the storm arrived, as he had been warned and the whole valley became flooded. A neighbour came past with a cart, carrying all his possessions and with his family on board.
"Climb aboard!" the neighbour called. "There is plenty of space!"
"No," the man replied. "My Lord will save me."
The neighbour passed, and the water started rising higher.
As the water started flooding his house, travelers fleeing the storm came past riding horses.
"Jump on!" they called. "We have space for one more!"
"No," the man said. "My Lord will protect me."
The riders passed. The water rose even higher, soon flooding his entire house, forcing the man to climb onto his own roof.
A boat came past, battling the waters, with the last few stragglers clinging on.
"Get in!" they called. "We can make room for you!"
"No," the man repeated. "My faith is in the Lord."
As the boat passed out of sight, a wave swept over the man, tearing him loose from the roof and drowning him.
When he arrived at the Pearly Gates, he indignantly demanded to speak to the Lord.
"Lord!" he accused. "I placed my faith in you, I was your most loyal worshiper, I believed in you, praying to you every day - and yet you left me to drown! Why?"
The Lord replied: "My child, I sent a warning, a neighbour with a cart, riders with horses and even, finally, a boat to rescue you! What more did you want Me to do?"
Originally posted by The big EHI doubt there is anybody in any position to conclude anything about the net effect of any religious belief, particularly such a general question that involves so many Gods. Mostly this is because history only focuses in on big events and rarely are those events documented well.
i believe so, i've seen way to many unmoral and evil things done to this world and justified by "it's god's will, or god told me to do it" just think about all the garbage people were fed during dark ages, did you also know that Pompie and the ancient world was more advanced than the dark ages (which came something like 5,000 years after them) and it's true, there are fountains in pompie and remains of simple but working plumbing. the church outlawed all this stuff and said they were "sinful" we'd probally be much more advanced if most technological advances were illegal (like bathing more than every sunday) like already have robotic limbs in full circulation and commonly used as opposed to a year before clinical trials
But my meager historical knowledge indicates more evil than good done by the will of a higher power...especially if you consider the gods of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome the Aztecs and the Incas (as opposed to just focusing on Spain's Christian brutality, which is often what everybody has in mind).
Like I said though...history can't really demonstrate much because there is so little known about the personal level for many people.
Originally posted by The big EHThat's what I was reffering to, but I never heard that the Mayans sacrificed a significant percentage of their population. Surely not more than a few for every thousand or so?
didnt the Mayans sacrifice their race off to nothing because the gods wanted them to? and didn't Incas and Aztecs sacrifice people to the gods aswell on a regular basis?
Originally posted by chickenlover98
ok ill go by your logic on this one. humans are full of sin, and therefore fallible. anything a human says may be twisted or taken out of context or outright lies. therefore one cannot consider the bible a truthful "word of god." it disproves it because there is no proof of god, which you have admitted before. whether it was "inspired" means nothing, seeing as it was not written by god himself, it cannot be taken as the literal word of god. now to say the ten commandments are the word of god is acceptable(if i believed in them) because they were handed to moses, directly from god.2. i have based my subjective opinion off of logic and those around me. it is clear that he has many flaws, such as love, and incomplete justice, and many out right cases of unfairness. never would a perfect or loving god ever hurt or torment its own creations(story of job) or force them to be slaves(israelites) when he himself could have easily freed them. a perfect god would not need worship to prove himself. nor would a perfect god even create anything because it is perfect. you may say perfection is subjective, but then what in this world isnt? it is clear that he cannot satisfy everyone, which yet again nullifies him the chance of being perfect. it is very clear how imperfect your god really is
Thank-you for your responses. One clarification, then two questions.
Clarification: In fact, I happen to believe there is good scientific evidence in SUPPORT of the existence of God. I'm not sure how you concluded that I believed otherwise. 😕
Question 1: Is it not possible that a perfect, all powerful God, could sufficiently supervene the work of human writers, such that the final scriptural product would accurately reflect His will?
Question 2: Hypothetically speaking, if the Bible could be proven authentic and authoritative to your satisfaction, what impact might this have on your world view?
Originally posted by Tim Rout
Thank-you for your responses. One clarification, then two questions.Clarification: In fact, I happen to believe there is good scientific evidence in SUPPORT of the existence of God. I'm not sure how you concluded that I believed otherwise. 😕
Question 1: Is it not possible that a perfect, all powerful God, could sufficiently supervene the work of human writers, such that the final scriptural product would accurately reflect His will?
Question 2: Hypothetically speaking, if the Bible could be proven authentic and authoritative to your satisfaction, what impact might this have on your world view?
2. if it was proved that god was real? well then id be pissed at him for being such a ****ing douche bag. never has such a hypocrite been known. story of job. my fav story of the bible. it entirely proves my point
Originally posted by chickenlover98
1. no it isnt possible. human error is so great its laughable. misinterpretations happen all the time. just look at the game of telephone. you must remember playing that as a kid. it starts with 1 word and then becomes something entirely different. this is exactly what happens. and if god was perfect, A: he wouldnt need worship and B: he would satisfy EVERYONES beliefs, because guess what HE"S PERFECT. but he doesnt, so even if he exists he isnt perfect
Originally posted by chickenlover98You did not answer the question I asked, though perhaps your response would not differ. You answered "What if God was proven real?" I asked "What if the Bible was proven authentic and authoritative?"
2. if it was proved that god was real? well then id be pissed at him for being such a ****ing douche bag. never has such a hypocrite been known. story of job. my fav story of the bible. it entirely proves my point
Originally posted by chickenlover98
1. no it isnt possible. human error is so great its laughable. misinterpretations happen all the time. just look at the game of telephone. you must remember playing that as a kid. it starts with 1 word and then becomes something entirely different. this is exactly what happens.
Agreed. But how does that support this next part?
Originally posted by chickenlover98He DOESN'T need worship. WE need worship. I suppose to you I sound like a fanatic, but we just barely agreed that human error is so great it's laughable. That's why worship is essential!
and if god was perfect, A: he wouldnt need worship
Originally posted by chickenlover98Why would God feel obliged to satisfy everyone's beliefs? I can understand why it wouldn't be fair if God sent a bunch of people to hell for not understanding him. But that isn't his plan. He's gonna put forth his best effort to find his lost sheep. Does that sound so obsurd to you?
and B: he would satisfy EVERYONES beliefs, because guess what HE"S PERFECT. but he doesnt, so even if he exists he isnt perfect
Originally posted by chickenlover98What does the story of Job prove? Job wound up quite happy. Seriously. What can you loose on earth that God can't reward you with ten times over in the next life?
2. if it was proved that god was real? well then id be pissed at him for being such a ****ing douche bag. never has such a hypocrite been known. story of job. my fav story of the bible. it entirely proves my point
As I said earlier, it all balances out in the afterlife. Think how pointless the entire creation would be if it all balanced out in this life.
Originally posted by Quark_666
Totally disagree with you there. It all balances out in the afterlife...God is eventually merciful.
God is merciful if you worship God; if not, then you will be in Hell (if you take it as a place then you are burning for eternity as punishment; if a state of mind, you are lost without God and suffering until you accept God). That contradicts the whole point of free will which why some believe people no one has free will.
On another point, I noticed something funny a long time ago but it came up again while I was watching basketball yesterday:
I got my wish yesterday and a nice amount of good basketball games came on. In these close games, fans from both sides were praying for victory. It made me wonder what the hell the losing prayer thought afterwards. "God is good!" if you win, and if you lose "It wasn't to be because God didn't want it" or some odd crap like that.
But like Beanie Sigel, a rapper, said on a song:
"I was taught trust in Allah but still tie up your camel" (not sure if it's directly out the Qu'ran or not).
No one takes responsibility for the situation. Just "put it in God's hands." It's sad.
Originally posted by Quark_666
Why would God feel obliged to satisfy everyone's beliefs? I can understand why it wouldn't be fair if God sent a bunch of people to hell for not understanding him. But that isn't his plan. He's gonna put forth his best effort to find his lost sheep. Does that sound so obsurd to you?
The only reason I don't see this is valid is because everyone does not go through the same situations.
* Side note: I still wonder why people think we go through hardships in life as a test to see if we can become angels in heaven (so weird; where does that myth come from?)
It would be one thing if "lost sheep" were all going through similar situations and so someone with shitty parents can not be put on the same scale as someone with a decent household. But the shitty parents might be rich and the good parents poor. Too many variables.
So my point is to say that I think is irrational to believe that everyone can learn about God and how to live in a way that serves God; therefore, holding God accountable seems silly (but then not since God is omnipotent in this situation and can do anything but I'm leaving that out for now).
Conversely, many people would argue that some don't have that chance and sometimes they don't have a place accepting of God and so on. Then the counter to this is that they probably just did not "accept the signs."
I would think God feels some sort of responsibility to humans because he gave them the ability to choose. Now when taking entire civilizations into account, the choices an individual makes are lessened because they will fit into the particular way of thought they are surrounded with more often than not.