Originally posted by leonheartmm
nothing is omnipresent. other than SEEING everything, one would have to FEAL everything from every possible perspective at the same time too. {and this is impossible as many things, to maintain thair uniqueness in perspective, need to be felt seperately from other perspectives. e.g. you can not feal true dispair in a certain situation if you are also looking at it from a hopeful perspective simultaneously}. this applies more easily to people's thoughts, even if you were able to sumhow SEE or FEAL sum1 else's thoughts, your experience of them wud be different than the expirience of the actual person, simply because, you are not in the same state he/she is and feal differently about the thought {based on your own state of being} than they do. this subjective facet of reality in my oppinion destroys the omnipresence paradigm. which also explaines why the god of scriptures doesnt have empathy for each and every individual soul's view. simply because those are things no1 can truly know all at the same time as they contradict each other and destroy unity of an entity.
We're talking about God, an all powerful abstract entity that always was and always will be, so God is pretty much be limitless, no matter how illogical and silly it may be. For all technical purposes, God created time, TIME.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
nothing is omnipresent. other than SEEING everything, one would have to FEAL everything from every possible perspective at the same time too. {and this is impossible as many things, to maintain thair uniqueness in perspective, need to be felt seperately from other perspectives. e.g. you can not feal true dispair in a certain situation if you are also looking at it from a hopeful perspective simultaneously}. this applies more easily to people's thoughts, even if you were able to sumhow SEE or FEAL sum1 else's thoughts, your experience of them wud be different than the expirience of the actual person, simply because, you are not in the same state he/she is and feal differently about the thought {based on your own state of being} than they do. this subjective facet of reality in my oppinion destroys the omnipresence paradigm. which also explaines why the god of scriptures doesnt have empathy for each and every individual soul's view. simply because those are things no1 can truly know all at the same time as they contradict each other and destroy unity of an entity.
I appreciate your input, but I think you are over analyzing it, and that's not necessary in my opinion.
I think it's much simpler than that: If God is omnipresent, then that means he exists everywhere, not just physically, but in all facets of existence, including the mental and spiritual.
Hell, whether or not it's a place or whether or not it's a state of mind (the Bible pretty much describes it as a very real place btw...), it still is under the realm of creation/existance.
So...
If God is omnipresent then he exists in Hell as well.
If God does not exist in Hell, then he is not omnipresent.
Who is the Creator?
Who is the Creator?
Creator is a collective, special Force that monitors the whole system of creation. That Force is one and unique. In Kabbalah there is but one primary law - the law of creation, which is to delight the creatures in any way the creatures can be delighted. All other laws stem from that one law, and everything that happens does so in the carrying out of that law. Everything that happens at any given moment in creation, its sole purpose is to take people come to the pointof utter bliss - to be filled with the Light of the Creator.
The Creator acts much like gravity: in the center of creation is the Creator. The souls were distanced five worlds away from Him. We live in the last one, called "our world". From that point Creator pulls us toward Him.
We sense that pull as pain - beginning with disease and ending in painful death. But if we make an effort to approach the Creator by cooperating with that Force, we will nor feel the pain. Instead, we will feel that Force as good. If, however, we refuse to, we will feel any troubles to the same extent that we resist. The Creator created us through His wish to give, to bestow. He created our will to receive exactly in the amount that He wanted to give. That why we must attain everything that He wants to give us eternity, strength, perfection, total control. This means we must assume all the duties of the Creator.
The primery law of creation is the singularity of the Creator-the one and only power that controls everything."There is none beside Him".
The second law of creation is that the Creator is totally benevolent. We cannot settle the contradiction between these two laws as they appear in our conception of reality.
To Kabbalists, this is not an"idea", but a fact they discover within their sansation of the Creator. People cannot begin to understand how there could have been a holocaust if there is a Creator, because they do not feel Him!!! In fact, the benevolence of the Creator appears only in our corrected desires.
If we are not corrected, then to the extent of the corruption to the Light, we will feel the opposite of the goodness of the Creator, feelings torment instead of happiness.
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SoD, you are open to charges of hypocrisy if you say that syaing hell is not a physical place is semantcis, and then indulge in semantics yourself in your definition of 'omnipresent'. That 'omnipresent' extends to non-physical places is an opnion, not a fact, and is simply adopting a meaning of the word that suits your argument.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
SoD, you are open to charges of hypocrisy if you say that syaing hell is not a physical place is semantcis, and then indulge in semantics yourself in your definition of 'omnipresent'. That 'omnipresent' extends to non-physical places is an opnion, not a fact, and is simply adopting a meaning of the word that suits your argument.
First of all, In the Bible you will see that Hell is described as a place, not just a state of mind. Hell has fire according to the Bible, meaning it occupies Space. It is also said to be under the earth...
Secondly, even if Hell were simply a state of mind, the mind is still a place where God would exist. If God does not exist in the mind, then he is not really omnipresent.
So either way, whether Hell be a real place, or an event, or whatever you want to call it, if God does not exist there, then he is not truly omnipresent.
If God were truly omnipresent, there could be no separation from him. Do you understand ? It's quite simple Ush.
The only way you could be separated from God, if God is truly omnipresent, is if you end up no where, meaning you no longer exist. If you suffer in Hell, then you still exist, and thus, there is an existance where God is not. Then he cannot be omnipresent.
Okay ?
Originally posted by Bentley
An omnipresent God could be in Hell while nothing of its grace is felt in such place.
Then Hell is not a place where only the evil dwell and thus would be a contradiction.
And if God is truly Holy and Sacred, and Hell is separation from God, then how could the two be together ? It really doesn't make sense.
Re: If God is Omnipresent....
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
-.....then that must mean he also exists in Hell.
I think that's a contradiction. If God is omnipresent, and exists in all places and facets of actuality, then he must also exist in Hell. But if Hell is a place of pure evil, and no good can exist there, then how can God be there? And if God is Holy and Pure, and Hell is the absense of God, then how can God exist in Hell at all ?
And if God does not exist in Hell, then how is he omnipresent ?
😕
An omnipotent creature is not necessarily limited by simple conceptions of logic.
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
First of all, In the Bible you will see that Hell is described as a place, not just a state of mind. Hell has fire according to the Bible, meaning it occupies Space. It is also said to be under the earth...Secondly, even if Hell were simply a state of mind, the mind is still a place where God would exist. If God does not exist in the mind, then he is not really omnipresent.
So either way, whether Hell be a real place, or an event, or whatever you want to call it, if God does not exist there, then he is not truly omnipresent.
If God were truly omnipresent, there could be [b]no separation
from him. Do you understand ? It's quite simple Ush.The only way you could be separated from God, if God is truly omnipresent, is if you end up no where, meaning you no longer exist. If you suffer in Hell, then you still exist, and thus, there is an existance where God is not. Then he cannot be omnipresent.
Okay ? [/B]
Do you have scriptures for this that are not metaphorical, allegorical, or symbolic but are literal in interpretation. hmm
Even in Mormonism, we are not sure what Outer Darkness(hell) is. Some say it is a state of mind, others say it is a universe of true nothingness. (Yes, Shaky, pure utter nothingness.)
Re: Re: If God is Omnipresent....
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
An omnipotent creature is not necessarily limited by simple conceptions of logic.
But my point is, it is not logical in the first place.
And I am not necessarily discussing an omnipotent being, but an omnipresent one.
If God is truly omnipresent, then there is no existence which is separate from himself. Only non existence could be separate from him. If Hell exists, and it is separation from God, then God is not truly omnipresent, only virtually so.
For God to be truthfully omnipresent, but for Hell to be the separation from God at the same time would be illogical and contradicting.
If God is perfection, how can anything having to do with him be illogical and contradicting ... ?