If God is Omnipresent....

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny

isnt your point that a quality of God contains a paradox?

I think a discussion of whether logical paradoxes can exist, whether they exist outside of human language, whether logic exists outside of human conception and how close we can come to knowing those axioms is, pretty much, the only important line of dialog.

Every paradox about God is instantly rendered moot if God exists and the paradoxes are merely a product of language.

If you aren't interested in talking about the base assumptions you are making, then there is no reason in discussion. You can actually make ANY statement, and have it be true, so long as the underlying assumptions are assumed to be true. The problem here, is that what you are assuming to be true might not be.

Originally posted by Bentley
Hell can be a relative absence of God, as I said, as long as God cannot be perceived by those on Hell, they are outside His grace and thus, suffering.

There is a complex answer: Hell is anyplace with less presence of God than this world, when people die outside God's grace they are pushed away from Him, when this happen they go to some other earth where there is "less" God's presence. As they were uncapable of saving themselves in God's eyes when they were closer to God, they are doomed to fail in that lesser place. Loop this until you get yourself eternal damnation. God's grace needs only to be less than that which exists in the world to cause eternal damnation, no need to have zero presence at any point.

Also, we know that Jesus (Christian God) went to limbo/hell to save the damned souls, since God is atemporal, we know that God has in fact, being in hell already, thus there is a presence of God in hell.

Okay. So what you are basically saying is that God does exist in Hell.

isnt your point that a quality of God contains a paradox?

Originally posted by inimalist
isnt your point that a quality of God contains a paradox?

Yes, but that's not the basis of what I am saying.

There can be a logical paradox in nature, or in one's lifetime experience.

I just think in this case, the paradox is illogical. I think the contadiction here is more severe than God knowing the future, but there still being free will.

Originally posted by inimalist
I think a discussion of whether logical paradoxes can exist, whether they exist outside of human language, whether logic exists outside of human conception and how close we can come to knowing those axioms is, pretty much, the only important line of dialog.

Well I will admit that I do think logical paradoxes exist in nature, and in many ways which only a number of people can recognize. So I'm not exactly saying that a logical paradox cannot exist.

Like I stated before, I find this paradox illogical. And I don't think it's just a paradox like the one for omnipotence.

If God is omnipresent, then nothing in existence is separate from him. He would exist in all directions, in all categories of thought, in all atoms, in every possible facet of being, since omni encompasses all, and present encompasses being.

The only logical conclusion would be that non-existence is the only thing separate from God.

If Hell is total separation from God, then it exists...but if it exists, then it is a place/idea/state of mind/state of being that does not include God. If that is so, God is then not omnipresent.

So it's not just a paradox, but a logical impossibility. If you want to say that God is beyond logic, and can break the rules of restrictions of reality, then you can say that. But to me, that's a major cop out, and a conveinent "all answer" to anything having to do with God in the first place.

But, I accept your argument about human logic. All we can work with is what we can conceive of, and if God is beyond human conception, then he or it is not bound by our perceptions.

I am simply stating that this contradiction/paradox is not logical or consistent, and thus causes a problem for general understanding.

Originally posted by inimalist
Every paradox about God is instantly rendered moot if God exists and the paradoxes are merely a product of language.

But language does not dictate nature. Whether or not we recognize a paradox to be so, does not render the paradox existent or non-existent. And this problem is not simply that of language, or even common sense.

It's not like the mysterious black hole, or presence of dark matter, or curvature of space time. Those mysteries still fit with each other, and can be explained logically through study and evidence.

The contradiction of God's omnipresence, yet non existence of Hell can't be logically explained or made sense of.

Originally posted by inimalist
If you aren't interested in talking about the base assumptions you are making, then there is no reason in discussion. You can actually make ANY statement, and have it be true, so long as the underlying assumptions are assumed to be true. The problem here, is that what you are assuming to be true might not be.

What do you imagine I am assuming to be true ?

I don't beleive in Hell or the Biblical God.

SoD i answered your question right here. But apparently no one saw it...

Originally posted by Gannon
Hell is the presence of God in His wrath. It is His eternal punishment for the wicked.

Psalm 139:8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

Therefore there is no contradiction against His omnipresence.

Originally posted by Gannon
SoD i answered your question right here. But apparently no one saw it...
Hell is the presence of God in His pure wrath, while heaven is the presence of God in His eternal love.

Therefore there is no contradiction against His omnipresence.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I am simply stating that this contradiction/paradox is not logical or consistent, and thus causes a problem for general understanding.

I'm sorry I cut this down, but I agree with much of what you said, so its all generally "cosign 100%"

I personally don't believe that logical paradoxes can exist in the universe (re: I believe there is some order, but admittedly this is a belief), though humans might not understand this order, so stuff may appear paradoxical to us at times.

I also agree that, if we assume that Hell is supposed to not have God in it, God being omnipresent is a paradox.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
yes however hell is construed in 2 ways. 1 being satan torturing you, and the other is the lack of the presence of god. your description does not exist

i think it wud only make sense for god to be omnipresent if god WAS everything, as opposed to being a seperate entity and being PRESENT everywhere.

Would it make sense to you if an omnipresent being had awareness and power over everything but did not presume to exist there?

omnipresence and opmniscience denies the presence of dicrete entities, e.g. our thoughts/sense of self etc. i certainly dont feal god in my self awareness. even if god can SEE it, still doesnt mean he sees it in the same unique way that i do. for god to be omnipresent, he wud have to be able to do that with every discreet entity.

My mistake. Should have used the word "omnipotent." But you satisfied my curiosity anyway 😄

Originally posted by Gannon
Where do you get this definition of hell being the absence of God? Just curious.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
omnipresence and opmniscience denies the presence of dicrete entities, e.g. our thoughts/sense of self etc. i certainly dont feal god in my self awareness. even if god can SEE it, still doesnt mean he sees it in the same unique way that i do. for god to be omnipresent, he wud have to be able to do that with every discreet entity.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Okay. So what you are basically saying is that God does exist in Hell.

Yeah, that would be the conclusion.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
seriously bro great to have you back on teh religion forum. i think ransfinitum is comin back soon. be ready 😄

Originally posted by Quark_666
Yeah he just responded to this age-old dead thread on a conversation that doesn't have a point. Course we all do that with conversations we seriously wanna revive...

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
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.....then that must mean he also exists in Hell.

I think that's a contradiction. If God is omnipresent, and exists in all places and facets of actuality, then he must also exist in Hell. But if Hell is a place of pure evil, and no good can exist there, then how can God be there? And if God is Holy and Pure, and Hell is the absense of God, then how can God exist in Hell at all ?

And if God does not exist in Hell, then how is he omnipresent ?

😕

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God is not Omnipresent.

* at long last, we're on the same page... 💃

Originally posted by dadudemon
...it may become necessary to redefine or even come up with a new word and definition for what God really is...
...there could be an infinite number of generations of Gods before our God because of omnipresence.

Originally posted by inimalist
I think a discussion of whether logical paradoxes can exist, whether they exist outside of human language, whether logic exists outside of human conception and how close we can come to knowing those axioms is, pretty much, the only important line of dialog.

Originally posted by Gannon
SoD i answered your question right here. But apparently no one saw it...
Hell is the presence of God in His pure wrath, while heaven is the presence of God in His eternal love.

Therefore there is no contradiction against His omnipresence.

Wait...if Hell is actually God's wrath manifest, then that would make total sense.

The only thing is, I don't think other Christians view Hell as God's wrath, but rather as our path away from God.

But if Hell is actually God's wrath, then it makes sense.