If God is Omnipresent....

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
If God is truly omnipresent, then there is no existence which is separate from himself. Only non existence could be separate from him. If Hell exists, and it is separation from God, then God is not truly omnipresent, only virtually so.

I tend agree with the above. I also think that for all intents and purposes, God was omnipresent for the understanding of those the scriptures were originally written for. Due to how in depth people are getting with interpretations, it may become necessary to redefine or even come up with a new word and definition for what God really is. He is virtually omnipotent and omnipresent. To me, he is virtually omniscient as well because it is possible that there are other things beyond God out there. (Such as God having sibling Gods that are in no way shape or form, part of this reality...or he may have a God that is above him...there could be an infinite number of generations of Gods before our God because of omnipresence.)

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
First of all, In the Bible you will see that Hell is described as a place, not just a state of mind. Hell has fire according to the Bible, meaning it occupies Space. It is also said to be under the earth...

Secondly, even if Hell were simply a state of mind, the mind is still a place where God would exist. If God does not exist in the mind, then he is not really omnipresent.

So either way, whether Hell be a real place, or an event, or whatever you want to call it, if God does not exist there, then he is not truly omnipresent.

If God were truly omnipresent, there could be [b]no separation from him. Do you understand ? It's quite simple Ush.

The only way you could be separated from God, if God is truly omnipresent, is if you end up no where, meaning you no longer exist. If you suffer in Hell, then you still exist, and thus, there is an existance where God is not. Then he cannot be omnipresent.

Okay ? [/B]

No not really, because you are still making assumptions about the word 'omnipresent' in extending it to non-physical places. That you want to interpret it like that, fine! But don't expect everyone else to. In the end, your argument also comes down to semantics.

It is indeed very simple! But you are the one not understanding it. You are blinding yourself in your deterimation to score cheap points of logic that frankly have no value.

Not that it makes any difference at all to anything Christians believe whether he has a presence there or not, but your argument is still deeply flawed.

then the word omnipresent can't be used. either god is omnipresent or not. if god is omnipresent, then god is in all things humans can imagine, period.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
And I am not necessarily discussing an omnipotent being, but an omnipresent one.

You are clearly refering to the Judeo-Christian god, who is usually viewed as being omnipotent.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
For God to be truthfully omnipresent, but for Hell to be the separation from God at the same time would be illogical and contradicting.

If God is perfection, how can anything having to do with him be illogical and contradicting ... ?

You're making an assumption about perfection.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

You're making an assumption about perfection.

😬

Allah-uh Akbar. God is great. Now lets move on.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Then Hell is not a place where only the evil dwell and thus would be a contradiction.

And if God is truly Holy and Sacred, and Hell is separation from God, then how could the two be together ? It really doesn't make sense.

I have never believed for a second that there is only evil in hell, since even by definition, if the people there are in damnation because of God's will, the tortures in hell serve God and thus His hand is in hell. So to me the definition you give of Hell is what creates the conflict in the first place.

God is indeed everywhere, even in hell, but it cannot be perceived for those inside hell who live in despair.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Allah-uh Akbar. God is great. Now lets move on.

😕

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No not really, because you are still making assumptions about the word 'omnipresent' in extending it to non-physical places. That you want to interpret it like that, fine! But don't expect everyone else to. In the end, your argument also comes down to semantics.

Since when is omnipresent only applied to physical places ? Cuz that's news to me buddy.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It is indeed very simple! But you are the one not understanding it. You are blinding yourself in your deterimation to score cheap points of logic that frankly have no value.

That's simply your opinion, and nothing more, so I will not bother arguing it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not that it makes any difference at all to anything Christians believe whether he has a presence there or not, but your argument is still deeply flawed.

How is my argument flawed ? I love how you are not actually addressing it, but still attempt to critisize it. Funny.

It's fairly simple, and if you just look at it, you will see:

If there is any where in existence where God is not present, then he is not truly omnipresent. He can't be everywhere "except in this one place", and still be omnipresent.

If God is everywhere and occupies everything, then there can't be an existance where he is not and that is not himself. The only conclusion is that non existence is the only true separation from God.

What part do you not understand ?

Originally posted by chithappens
then the word omnipresent can't be used. either god is omnipresent or not. if god is omnipresent, then god is in all things humans can imagine, period.

👆

I'm glad someone understands.

Originally posted by symmetric chaos
You are clearly refering to the Judeo-Christian god, who is usually viewed as being omnipotent.

But omnipotence and omnipresence are not the same thing. I am sure if you have one, then you can easily obtain the other, but that is besides the point.

I am only discussing omnipresence, not omnipotence. So please stay on topic.

Secondly, back to the point: It is illogical and contradicting for an omnipresent being to not exist in Hell. Then that can only mean that Hell doesn't exist, logically.

I am not saying that the illogical answer cannot be true, only that it is not logical in the first place. Do you understand ?

Originally posted by symmetric chaos
You're making an assumption about perfection.

Even though I still back what I said, you have a point. Arguing what perfection is will lead to a never ending nonsense debate. And it is off topic. So feel free to ignore the statement I made on that.

Originally posted by dadudedemon
I tend agree with the above. I also think that for all intents and purposes, God was omnipresent for the understanding of those the scriptures were originally written for. Due to how in depth people are getting with interpretations, it may become necessary to redefine or even come up with a new word and definition for what God really is. He is virtually omnipotent and omnipresent. To me, he is virtually omniscient as well because it is possible that there are other things beyond God out there. (Such as God having sibling Gods that are in no way shape or form, part of this reality...or he may have a God that is above him...there could be an infinite number of generations of Gods before our God because of omnipresence.)

I can always rely on you to have an open minded and objective response 👆

I think you may be right. I think that this God is logically virtually omnipresent (and omniscient and omnipotent), but not literally.

I think it makes more sense though if God was both good and evil. Or if God wasn't either, but rather the personification of everything.

That way, he can occupy Hell, Earth, Heaven, every facet of the universe, including what's beyond the universe, etc. and still be God. However, if this were the case, he wouldn't be a "he".

Wait, I have to ask: Is saying that a "perfect being" is automatically "omnipresent" an assumption?

No, what I said earlier was that how can anything illogical and contradicting come from a being who is perfection ?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
No, what I said earlier was that how can anything illogical and contradicting come from a being who is perfection ?

unfortunately, the only logic we have access to is flawed human logic

If logic can exist outside of the human perspective, there is no reason to assume that it would contain the same axioms as ours.

Originally posted by Bentley
I have never believed for a second that there is only evil in hell, since even by definition, if the people there are in damnation because of God's will, the tortures in hell serve God and thus His hand is in hell. So to me the definition you give of Hell is what creates the conflict in the first place.

God is indeed everywhere, even in hell, but it cannot be perceived for those inside hell who live in despair.

Bump myself!

Originally posted by chithappens
😬

¿Que?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny

But omnipotence and omnipresence are [b]not the same thing. I am sure if you have one, then you can easily obtain the other, but that is besides the point.

I am only discussing omnipresence, not omnipotence. So please stay on topic.

Secondly, back to the point: It is illogical and contradicting for an omnipresent being to not exist in Hell. Then that can only mean that Hell doesn't exist, logically.

I am not saying that the illogical answer cannot be true, only that it is not logical in the first place. Do you understand ?[/B]

But you're also talking about God. You ignore the fact (for the sake of argument lets assume God is real) that God doesn't have to follow logic.

Saying that one aspect of a being doesn't work while ignoring the parts that do make it work is foolish. If I said that it didn't make sense for you to breath because your lungs needed a signal to tell them to do that you would point out that your brain does that.

The same applies here, I mention omnipotence because it (inelegantly) solves your perceived paradox and is often a power credited to god.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
¿Que?

But you're also talking about God. You ignore the fact (for the sake of argument lets assume God is real) that God doesn't have to follow logic.

Saying that one aspect of a being doesn't work while ignoring the parts that do make it work is foolish. If I said that it didn't make sense for you to breath because your lungs needed a signal to tell them to do that you would point out that your brain does that.

The same applies here, I mention omnipotence because it (inelegantly) solves your perceived paradox and is often a power credited to god.

Okay. My point though, is that it is a contradiction and is illogical in the first place.

Whether or not God is beyond logic, etc. is beside the point. I still feel it is a major cop out though.

If God encompasses all things, then he exists in all possible directions, and his presence cannot be escaped. Thus, whether he likes it or not, Hell would exist within him. Logically only non existence can be separate from himself, if he were truly omnipotent.

However, when you include omnipotence in the equation, then who is to say that he can't be omnipresent without having to exist in Hell as well ? Who knows. That's another argument entirely though, because I'm not really trying to resurrect the Omnipotence Paradox Thread again.

My primary point is that for God to be truly omnipresent, while not existing in Hell is a major contradiction and is illogical. If you disagree, then say so.

But I think it is going off topic to include the paradox of omnipotence into the argument, when one can easily just repeat that in an argument having to do with Omniscience vs Free Will, and Love being cruel, etc. There are many contradictions about the Biblical God, and it's kind of a cop out and played out argument that due to omnipotence, God can be pure love while still doing evil things, and God can be two completely contradicting entities at the same time, etc.

So I will leave it at that. If you wish to continue playing the omnipotence card, then please take it to the Paradox of Omnipotence Thread. But if you wish to argue why it is actually logical and not contradictory for God to be omnipotent and not exist in Hell, then I welcome you to do so.

I mean no offense, so please don't take it that way, but I just think the Paradox of Omnipotence is another topic all together.

Originally posted by inimalist
unfortunately, the only logic we have access to is flawed human logic

If logic can exist outside of the human perspective, there is no reason to assume that it would contain the same axioms as ours.

Originally posted by spearofdestiny
Even though I still back what I said, you have a point. Arguing what perfection is will lead to a never ending nonsense debate. And it is off topic. So feel free to ignore the statement I made on that.

I said it already, the flaw in your argument is that you think Hell has only evil when it clearly serves a good propose and is in nature not pure evil by definition.

Originally posted by Bentley
I said it already, the flaw in your argument is that you think Hell has only evil when it clearly serves a good propose and is in nature not pure evil by definition.

Supposedly, the Bible dictates Hell as a place of evil and suffering, and Hell is ultimately the absence of God.

If you mean to defy that version of Hell, then tell me...what is Hell really ?

Hell can be a relative absence of God, as I said, as long as God cannot be perceived by those on Hell, they are outside His grace and thus, suffering.

There is a complex answer: Hell is anyplace with less presence of God than this world, when people die outside God's grace they are pushed away from Him, when this happen they go to some other earth where there is "less" God's presence. As they were uncapable of saving themselves in God's eyes when they were closer to God, they are doomed to fail in that lesser place. Loop this until you get yourself eternal damnation. God's grace needs only to be less than that which exists in the world to cause eternal damnation, no need to have zero presence at any point.

Also, we know that Jesus (Christian God) went to limbo/hell to save the damned souls, since God is atemporal, we know that God has in fact, being in hell already, thus there is a presence of God in hell.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Supposedly, the Bible dictates Hell as a place of evil and suffering, and Hell is ultimately the absence of God.

If you mean to defy that version of Hell, then tell me...what is Hell really ?

Jehovah's Witnesses see hell as something different.