Originally posted by DARTH POWERIn raw power, yeah. I hope you're not actually going to argue that in acquired power or Force mastery - in which department Anakin absolutely sucks - that he could compete with Sidious on any level. Whereas Mace actually put him on his ass.
ROTS Anakin is as strong as Sidious accordind to Lucas's own commentary, so no Mace is not deadlier than Anakin. He took down Sidious using Vapaad which is more effective on darksiders.
And Windu did create and master the form of combat that Yoda called "the deadliest" there is.
and Mace smarter than Anakin?? is there really any evidence of that?Shatterpoint? That entire last battle?
He's learned since Geonosis.
wasnt very smart of Mace to just take 3 jedis with him to confront sidious none of which were anywhere near as powerful as Sidious or Mace..Those three Jedi were some of the best duelists in the Order, and the Council believed that alongside Mace, Kolar would've been all that was necessary to take down Sidious. They simply underestimated him.
Not very tactical of Mace id say.You're comparing completely different things here. Mace underestimated his opponent before he'd ever fought him - four of the greatest swordsman in the Order should've been able to take down anyone. Anakin knew his Master inside and out, yet he made possibly the most idiotic error in the saga.
At least bring up a relevant scenario if you're going to try and compare Mace and Anakin.
Smarter? Yes. Deadlier? Arguable. Anakin was a level 9 swordsmen, which places him on the same tier as Windu; but as I've clarified before, Sidious/Yoda/Mace are all better fighters than him because of their intelligence and more controlled way of fighting.Mace's level of physical conditioning isn't something that could ever count against him. This is the man who went toe-to-toe with Kar Vastor in the jungles of Haruun Kal. Vastor, over two meters tall and made of muscle, who was said to have raw power on the level of Yoda. Mace held his own, and even gained the upper hand several times, despite being hurled around into tree trunks and the heads of Akk hounds, spraining his ankle when an unbreakable vine manipulated by Kar yanked him off the ground, and sporting several cracked ribs. In the end, he used his last reserves of strength to land a blow on Vastor that knocked him head over heels through the air. 'Course, the guy's a monster, so naturally he just stood up and knocked Mace into oblivion, but I digress...[quote]The thing is... gaining a tactical advantage does not necessarily have anything to do with your opponent. Imagine this; Obi-Wan and Windu fight in the Senate. Windu is ripping at Obi-Wan's defenses, Obi-Wan is 'pushed' back, and then he suddenly leaps up and lands on a pod higher than Windu. THAT'S a tactical advantage, and thus, I doubt Windu will be able to prevent Obi-Wan from jumping, could he? Of course, he'll probably do something smarter than Anakin (like throwing his lightsaber), and eventually, even Windu is bound to make a mistake if Obi-Wan can prolong the combat long enough, by the usage of the environment/etc, Mace will tire himself out or make a mistake.
[quote]Vaapad is describes as an extremely demanding lightsaber form, and thus, I doubt Windu- a man slightly beyond his prime- would be capable of continuing to fight with equal efficiency for the entire duration of the fight.
So no, I don't think Mace is going to be tiring out much at all. That said, I can see - with the assistance of terrain and maybe a slight error on Windu's part - Obi-Wan gaining an advantage and taking Mace out. It's possible. But it's extremely unlikely.
Originally posted by Faunus
In raw power, yeah. I hope you're not actually going to argue that in acquired power or Force mastery - in which department Anakin absolutely sucks - that he could compete with Sidious on any level. Whereas Mace actually put him on his ass.
Anakin has like at least double the midichlorian count i.e. potential of Sidious. which means he only needs about Half the fighting capabilities and Half the mastery of the Force of Sidious to match him in power.
Dooku was no match for Anakin.. so common sense should tell us Anakin was at least very close to Sidious's level of power.
Lucas says it that before his injuries Vader was as strong as the Emporer, but Never Again after that.
And by the way before accusing Anakin of sucking in Force Mastery check out how he manhandles Ventress just using the Force and Durge. He tossed Durge into a Sun! this was close to the time of ROTS, after Anakin had been Knighted.
Originally posted by FaunusThose three Jedi were some of the best duelists in the Order, and the Council believed that alongside Mace, Kolar would've been all that was necessary to take down Sidious. They simply underestimated him.
You're comparing completely different things here. Mace underestimated his opponent before he'd ever fought him - four of the greatest swordsman in the Order should've been able to take down .
Yoda also never fought Sidious before but did not underestimate him. thats why he told Obi-Wan that he on his own would not be sufficient. they knew how powerful this sith lord had to be for all hes done and hidden from them.
I dnt think the Council ever suggested that Mace only take these 3 Jedi with him to confront Sidious. That was entirely Maces choice.
Those Jedis were good but I dnt think they were even a match for General Greivous. so they were certainly no where near Maces level... Simply put without Obi-Wan or Yoda there, Mace should have taken more Jedis..
In PURGE the Jedis set a trap for Vader. they had 8 jedis there waiting for him. because they knew no matter HOW Powerful Vader is theres no way hes gna take down 8 Jedis.
Mace should have prepared for the worst with Sidious and assumed he would be Extremely Powerful considering this is the Sith Master whose clouded all the Jedis Vision and has almost taken over the galaxy.
There was simply no excuse for underestimating him with the fate of the Jedis and the Galaxy at stake. I wuldnt say it was his fault, but he certainly wasnt Smart, Wise or Tactical about it. [/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Faunus
anyone. Anakin knew his Master inside and out, yet he made possibly the most idiotic error in the saga.At least bring up a relevant scenario if you're going to try and compare Mace and Anakin.
If your talking about the jump he made, hed already Lost the Fight! Obi-Wan simply outsmarted him.
"Its Over Anakin. I have the High Ground.."
He did the jump out of arrogance(a typical Sith trait) and unwillingness and stubborness to surrender to his former master. And Obi-Wan having taught Anakin is more of an advantage to Obi-Wan than to Anakin.
There are numerous stories which show Anakins cunningness in war as well. but ill have to go and find them. but Obi-Wan just tends to keep his cool and use his brain more during an intense battle. Its part of why Yoda thinks SO Highly of HIm.
and its not a bad comparison. Anakins arrogance and underestimating Obi-Wan cost him his limbs. Mace underestimating Sidious possibly due to a bit of arrogance as well cost the fate of the galaxy.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin has like at least double the midichlorian count i.e. potential of Sidious. which means he only needs about Half the fighting capabilities and Half the mastery of the Force of Sidious to match him in power.
Anakin had an incredible lack of control over the vast reserves of power at his disposal; Jedi like Obi-Wan were just the opposite, negating fairly average potential with high levels of control and understanding.
Dooku was no match for Anakin.. so common sense should tell us Anakin was at least very close to Sidious's level of power.Dooku would've beaten Anakin into the ground with his Force abilities if Anakin hadn't done just to him with a lightsaber. The Count was prodigiously talented in his own right, and eighty years of Force training allowed him to overpower Obi-Wan - who managed to completely counter Anakin's Force attack - twice in about twenty seconds. Anakin physically overpowered Dooku; that doesn't make him more "powerful" in the context of acquired power and mastery.
Lucas says it that before his injuries Vader was as strong as the Emporer, but Never Again after that.No, Lucas says Anakin was never again as strong as the Emperor, which likely refers to Force potential.
And by the way before accusing Anakin of sucking in Force Mastery check out how he manhandles Ventress just using the Force and Durge. He tossed Durge into a Sun! this was close to the time of ROTS, after Anakin had been Knighted.He tossed Asajj into a bunch of cables and got her eletrocuted, then hurled off the top of a building. It's impressive, but not extraordinary, especially since Asajj had been toying with him just prior. Compare that to what Dooku did to Obi-Wan, Sora Bulq, AotC Anakin, and Quinlan Vos, and you have a feat that doesn't really mean much.
And Durge? A non-Force-sensitive. Anakin knocked him into an escape pod and angled it towards the sun, the guy had several dozen mines detonated in his face. Whoa. Ownage.
Yoda also never fought Sidious before but did not underestimate him. thats why he told Obi-Wan that he on his own would not be sufficient. they knew how powerful this sith lord had to be for all hes done and hidden from them.Yoda knew that Mace, Agen, Kit, and Saesee Tinn had failed. The fact that those four couldn't kill Sidious, in one way or another, would suggest that he's up against someone incredible. Not an advantage Mace had.
"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I recommend we send only one Jedi-Master Kenobi."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right."
Those Jedis were good but I dnt think they were even a match for General Greivous. so they were certainly no where near Maces level... Simply put without Obi-Wan or Yoda there, Mace should have taken more Jedis..There it is. The Council was confident sending Obi-Wan to Utapau and Yoda off to Kashyyyk because Mace and Agen, "among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced," were still on-world.
And according to Count Dooku, who trained Grievous, every one of those Jedi would've posed a serious threat to him in fair combat. Agen Kolar completely outclassed Quinlan Vos, Kit Fisto's abilities a yeart into the Clone Wars were enough to dazzle Obi-Wan, and Saesee Tinn... Well, he didn't really do anything, but the rest were badass. And of course, Mace Windu had already kicked the General's ass himself. Twice.
In PURGE the Jedis set a trap for Vader. they had 8 jedis there waiting for him. because they knew no matter HOW Powerful Vader is theres no way hes gna take down 8 Jedis.Smart of them. And then Vader takes five of them down before getting battered by the combined Force assaults of the three survivors. Guess they forgot that the Empire has, you know, millions of soldiers at its disposal.
Mace should have prepared for the worst with Sidious and assumed he would be Extremely Powerful considering this is the Sith Master whose clouded all the Jedis Vision and has almost taken over the galaxy.See the above.There was simply no excuse for underestimating him with the fate of the Jedis and the Galaxy at stake. I wuldnt say it was his fault, but he certainly wasnt Smart, Wise or Tactical about it.
If your talking about the jump he made, hed already Lost the Fight! Obi-Wan simply outsmarted him.How does this support Anakin at all? If anything, it just highlights how much of an idiot he was.
"Its Over Anakin. I have the High Ground.."He did the jump out of arrogance(a typical Sith trait) and unwillingness and stubborness to surrender to his former master.
And Obi-Wan having taught Anakin is more of an advantage to Obi-Wan than to Anakin.How?
There are numerous stories which show Anakins cunningness in war as well. but ill have to go and find them. but Obi-Wan just tends to keep his cool and use his brain more during an intense battle. Its part of why Yoda thinks SO Highly of HIm.I'd love to see those, then compare them to Mace's accomplishments in Shatterpoint.
and its not a bad comparison. Anakins arrogance and underestimating Obi-Wan cost him his limbs. Mace underestimating Sidious possibly due to a bit of arrogance as well cost the fate of the galaxy.It kind of is. Mace had absolutely no information to go on when making his decision, and somehow four of the best duelists the Jedi Order had ever produced weren't enough to handle Palpatine. Anakin, again, knew Obi-Wan inside and out. He had no excuse.
On that note, the novel's depiction of the Mace vs. Palpatine battle was about a thousand times better than the movie's. It actually explained why Sidious was able to take out Agen, who appears to have been the best duelist on the team behind Windu.
havent got time to adress everything, and frankly dnt see the point as id just be repeating myself. ill just touch on a couple of points I think were important.
Originally posted by Faunus
And assuming that bullshit was actually true, he might be able to take on Sidious. But as it is, his Force mastery wasn't even good enough to overpower Kenobi in a Force contest. Against Palpatine, he gets curbstomped.Anakin had an incredible lack of control over the vast reserves of power at his disposal; Jedi like Obi-Wan were just the opposite, negating fairly average potential with high levels of control and understanding.
Its Lucas who says he has like twice the potential of Sidious. well he sed if Vader didnt receive his injuries he would have been twice as powerful.
Its credit to Kenobi that he matched Anakin with the Force. Shows how good Obi-Wan was not how bad Anakin was.
Is there any evidence that Anakin could not control his powers??
Obi-Wan fairly average potential?? No comment.
Originally posted by Faunus
Dooku would've beaten Anakin into the ground with his Force abilities if Anakin hadn't done just to him with a lightsaber.
Speculation. Anakin drew his power with a lightsaber from his massive force potential. Power that Dooku simply could not handle. Theres nothing to say Anakin could not draw the same amount of power when making Force Attacks.
Originally posted by Faunus
The Count was prodigiously talented in his own right, and eighty years of Force training allowed him to overpower Obi-Wan - who managed to completely counter Anakin's Force attack - twice in about twenty seconds. Anakin physically overpowered Dooku; that doesn't make him more "powerful" in the context of acquired power and mastery.
The Count didnt overpower Obi-Wan... Obi-Wan never had a chance to fight back. The Count simply caught him off guard. All credit to the Count for that. Not saying Obi-Wan can take the count, but just that he seemed to catch him off guard, and didnt overpower him in a Force to Force battle.
Anakin was more powerful in Sidious's words "Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and More Powerful.."
Originally posted by Faunus
No, Lucas says Anakin was never again as strong as the Emperor, which likely refers to Force potential.
Not likely... because Anakins Force potential was Much Much Greater than that of the Emporer before his injuries.
Never "Again" clearly Implies that before the injuries he was as strong.
Also we know Lucas states OT Vader was like 80% of the Emporer. And he sed ROTS Anakin was more powerful than OT Vader.. so ROTS Anakin was clearly AT LEAST very close to Sidious in Power.
Originally posted by Faunus
He tossed Asajj into a bunch of cables and got her eletrocuted, then hurled off the top of a building. It's impressive, but not extraordinary, especially since Asajj had been toying with him just prior. Compare that to what Dooku did to Obi-Wan, Sora Bulq, AotC Anakin, and Quinlan Vos, and you have a feat that doesn't really mean much.
When Asajj was toying with him he hadnt gone all out himself. If he beat Dooku in a Lightsaber duel then clearly Asajj's no match. Yeah I know about the bunch of cables. So what? he used the Force to do that to her.. just like Sidious used the Force to toss senate pods at Yoda. Doesnt mean the credit goes to the pods and not to Sidious! lol!
The point is he completely manhandled her(another poweferful force users) with the Force once he decided to go all out.
Originally posted by FaunusAnd Durge? A non-Force-sensitive. Anakin knocked him into an escape pod and angled it towards the sun, the guy had several dozen mines detonated in his face. Whoa. Ownage.
what are you talking about?? that was amazing! Anakins the one who used the Force to send the mines back on to durge. and then forced him into an escape pod, and then sent the pod to the sun all using the force!
im not going over the Mace approaching Sidious with 3 jedis again. he was warned of his power by Anakin. it was just stupid. theres no excuse for that considering it was probably the most important arrest in the history of the galaxy, and certainly not very well planned tactically. where was the back up plan?? were any other jedis even told Palpatine is the sith lord and mace is arresting him? just stupid. plain stupid.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThat wasn't what I was debating. It was your assertion that "half the mastery / half the skill" would put him on Palpatine's level. Which makes no sense.
Its Lucas who says he has like twice the potential of Sidious. well he sed if Vader didnt receive his injuries he would have been twice as powerful.
Its credit to Kenobi that he matched Anakin with the Force. Shows how good Obi-Wan was not how bad Anakin was.It's both. Anakin, six months into the war, had raw power comparable to that of Yoda, and that power grew considersably between Shatterpoint and RotS. Assuming he could actually use it right, he should've crushed Obi-Wan in their Force contest. So unless you think Obi-Wan could Force-push Yoda to a standstill, that is definitive proof that Anakin's control over his power was lacking.
Is there any evidence that Anakin could not control his powers??The above, which you seem to be trying to ignore completely, and the fact that his most impressive Force feat happened by accident, and ended up bringing a ceiling on top of Obi-Wan and himself.
Obi-Wan fairly average potential?? No comment.Jedi Apprentice series. Not to mention that there's nothing to indicate he has abnormally high Force potential.
Speculation. Anakin drew his power with a lightsaber from his massive force potential. Power that Dooku simply could not handle. Theres nothing to say Anakin could not draw the same amount of power when making Force Attacks.Except that he never did. He had the chance against Obi-Wan; didn't happen. That, when he's pissed off and absolutely cutting loose, rather similar to the situation Ventress found herself in.
The Count didnt overpower Obi-Wan... Obi-Wan never had a chance to fight back. The Count simply caught him off guard. All credit to the Count for that. Not saying Obi-Wan can take the count, but just that he seemed to catch him off guard, and didnt overpower him in a Force to Force battle.All Jedi are taught to counter kinesis before they even learn to use a lightsaber. Mace Windu managed to ground Vastor's Force-grip while he was being tossed around and slammed into everything from tree trunks to the skull of an akk hound. Obi-Wan was perfectly still for four seconds or so, doing nothing but choking. If he's as quick-thinking and resourceful as you all seem to claim, and he had the power to do so, he would have gotten out of the hold. Why didn't he? Because he couldn't.
Anakin was more powerful in Sidious's words "Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and More Powerful.."I've been over this, multiple times.
Not likely... because Anakins Force potential was Much Much Greater than that of the Emporer before his injuries.
Never "Again" clearly Implies that before the injuries he was as strong.
Also we know Lucas states OT Vader was like 80% of the Emporer. And he sed ROTS Anakin was more powerful than OT Vader.. so ROTS Anakin was clearly AT LEAST very close to Sidious in Power.[/quote]Been over this, multiple times. Raw power means nothing without refinement, and Anakin lacked the mastery to use it well. That's all there is to it.
When Asajj was toying with him he hadnt gone all out himself.
The point is he completely manhandled her(another poweferful force users) with the Force once he decided to go all out.If he has to go apeshit to Force-pwn her, someone like Sidious would dominate him. Obi-Wan did.
f he beat Dooku in a Lightsaber duel then clearly Asajj's no match.Which is why she almost killed him twice before he surrendered to the dark side, and almost managed to kill Obi-Wan about half a dozen times.
And I'm beginning to wonder if you're even reading my posts. Anakin physically overpowered Dooku; he didn't beat him through a show of superior skill, tactics, or power. Just strength. And last I checked, Asajj wasn't an eighty-three year-old man.
Yeah I know about the bunch of cables. So what? he used the Force to do that to her.. just like Sidious used the Force to toss senate pods at Yoda. Doesnt mean the credit goes to the pods and not to Sidious! lol!Um, irrelevant misdirection, much? Anakin knocked her into wires; electricity did the rest. A far cry from hurling metal pods larger than automobiles at someone.
what are you talking about?? that was amazing! Anakins the one who used the Force to send the mines back on to durge. and then forced him into an escape pod, and then sent the pod to the sun all using the force!You understand that escape pods get launched, right? Anakin levitated a bunch of mines in Durge's face and let them detonate. He then shoved him into a pod, activated it, and once the pod was moving he redirected it towards a star. Impressive, but hardly "amazing."
im not going over the Mace approaching Sidious with 3 jedis again. he was warned of his power by Anakin. it was just stupid. theres no excuse for that considering it was probably the most important arrest in the history of the galaxy, and certainly not very well planned tactically. where was the back up plan?? were any other jedis even told Palpatine is the sith lord and mace is arresting him? just stupid. plain stupid.You know what? I've provided a sound argument. Everything you've brought up has already been addressed, as you would've discovered if you would actually read the damn post.
Originally posted by Faunusok.. that was an assumption on my half which i thought made sense. but if it doesnt make sense then fine.
That wasn't what I was debating. It was your assertion that "half the mastery / half the skill" would put him on Palpatine's level. Which makes no sense.
Originally posted by Faunus
It's both. Anakin, six months into the war, had raw power comparable to that of Yoda, and that power grew considersably between Shatterpoint and RotS. Assuming he could actually use it right, he should've crushed Obi-Wan in their Force contest. So unless you think Obi-Wan could Force-push Yoda to a standstill, that is definitive proof that Anakin's control over his power was lacking.
ok. but it just looked to me like Obi-Wan was trying much harder and was jus trying his best to stand off him, but still Anakin recovered much quicker.
Originally posted by Faunus
Jedi Apprentice series. Not to mention that there's nothing to indicate he has abnormally high Force potential.
Does anyone here actually believe the legendary jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi only has very average force potential???!! would he ever have stood a chance against, Aankin, Vader or even Darth Maul if he did. would Anakin even think of comparing Obi-Wan's power to Maces, if Obi-Wan just had fairly average force potential??!!!
In that case I want proof that Mace force potential is above average as well. thats just totally ridiculous!!! You dnt need proof for such blatantly obvious things like that. Thats like asking for proof that Han Solo was an above average pilot or soldier??
Originally posted by Faunus
[All Jedi are taught to counter kinesis before they even learn to use a lightsaber. Mace Windu managed to ground Vastor's Force-grip while he was being tossed around and slammed into everything from tree trunks to the skull of an akk hound. Obi-Wan was perfectly still for four seconds or so, doing nothing but choking. If he's as quick-thinking and resourceful as you all seem to claim, and he had the power to do so, he would have gotten out of the hold. Why didn't he? Because he couldn't..
i never claimed Obi-Wan could get out of that Force Grip. no amount of resourcefullness would have helped then. he was stuck in that position.
Originally posted by Faunus
[Prove it. She started out by threatening to kill his wife, and proceeded to mock and taunt him while slashing up his face. At one point, she noted that she could've "easily taken [his] head off." ].
he was still a jedi at that point.. his first action was not always "she knws about padme. kill her! now! hed already beatin Ventress before in a duel, and hed improved since then. urm yes SHE NOTED that she could have taken his face.. as in HER opinion.. uv not mentioned what HE NOTED after that. sumthing like "uv got no idea how powerful I really am!!" after which he just completely dominated her in the phsyical fight, and than just finished her off using the Force to attack her with those cables... and theres nothing she could do.
Originally posted by Faunus
Which is why she almost killed him twice before he surrendered to the dark side, and almost managed to kill Obi-Wan about half a dozen times.].
Oh Come On!! Anakin beat Ventress every time they fought. and yes she did try to kill Obi-Wan several times.. but never actually managed to. she managed to capture him and torture him once.. and he was very clever the way he escaped.. but guess what?? Obi-Wan Never actually tried to kill Ventress!! he felt for her the whole time nd jus tried to help her!
Originally posted by Faunus
And I'm beginning to wonder if you're even reading my posts. Anakin physically overpowered Dooku; he didn't beat him through a show of superior skill, tactics, or power. Just strength. And last I checked, Asajj wasn't an eighty-three year-old man. .].
Dooku simply could not handle Anakins Raw Power. Anyone whose seen the film can tell you that.. and guess what? Asajj couldnt handle it either.
Originally posted by Faunus
Um, irrelevant misdirection, much? Anakin knocked her into wires; electricity did the rest. A far cry from hurling metal pods larger than automobiles at someone.
You understand that escape pods get launched, right? Anakin levitated a bunch of mines in Durge's face and let them detonate. He then shoved him into a pod, activated it, and once the pod was moving he redirected it towards a star. Impressive, but hardly "amazing.".].
well I was impressed and I still am. Those fights were clearly showing how Powerful Aankin had become. Both Durge and Ventress can kill the vast majority of Jedis. and Anakin completely dominated them just using the Force. thats something ud expect from Yoda or Sidious.
Originally posted by Faunus
You know what? I've provided a sound argument. Everything you've brought up has already been addressed, as you would've discovered if you would actually read the damn post.
HAHA! i cnat believe you just cant accept that was a massive tactical error form Mace Windu. After being told that the Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy is The Sith Master theyve been looking for for the Past 13years(something the Jedi Council did not know when they advised Mace) and being warned by Anakin on how Powerful he was and he just goes to arrest him with 3 jedis without even warning all the other jedis! It was obvious this guy is the Most Dangerous guy in the Galaxy!
If a really good cop finds out where the biggest terroist in the world is, do you think hell just take 3 other really good cops to go arrest him, because in theory they should be able to handle it???
No Way!!! theyll send in a whole Firing Squad, and of course theyd notify some higher authority about what theyre doing and where theyre going in case they dnt make it out!
Seriously just give up on that argument. That was a serious mistake which not only cost Mace his own life, but the lives of the whole Jedi Order.
HAHA! i cnat believe you just cant accept that was a massive tactical error form Mace Windu. After being told that the Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy is The Sith Master theyve been looking for for the Past 13years(something the Jedi Council did not know when they advised Mace) and being warned by Anakin on how Powerful he was and he just goes to arrest him with 3 jedis without even warning all the other jedis! It was obvious this guy is the Most Dangerous guy in the Galaxy!If a really good cop finds out where the biggest terroist in the world is, do you think hell just take 3 other really good cops to go arrest him, because in theory they should be able to handle it???
No Way!!! theyll send in a whole Firing Squad, and of course theyd notify some higher authority about what theyre doing and where theyre going in case they dnt make it out!
Seriously just give up on that argument. That was a serious mistake which not only cost Mace his own life, but the lives of the whole Jedi Order.
Although I was fairly pro-OB1 in this argument- although I said Mace was stronger- I'm sorry, that is just bullshit. Imagine the following scene: Mace enters the office with telve other Jedi marching with him; they all gang up on the chancellor. Lol. That's just a bad idea; we noticed that Windu did not faire particularly well against Sidious while he he Kit Fisto on his side, while he later successfully put Sidious on his ass, a feat the Grand Master of the Jedi order could not replicate. Having millions of Jedi at your command will not be useful- they will get in each other's way, scared to hit each other, while Sidious does his spins, jumps, and slashes, and before you know it, it's Mace vs. Sidious again. Or worse, they just kill each other and Mace gets killed, unable to sufficiently concentrate on his target.
The Sith proved that quality > quantity, as Two Sith, rather than ten thousand, took over the galaxy. Better to have three excellent combatants at your side than to have 10 Padawans. Now, Windu proved that he did not underestimate Sidious; despite the common belief, as seen by the novel, who thought that Agen Kolar and Windu alone would be enough to take down Sidious, he took some 'extra' Jedi, just to be on the safe side.
Later on, Windu showed the ability to tactically think in the fight; he was being pushed back, and overwhelmed by Sidious' furious offense and extreme speed (I'm using the book rather than the movie... it's no fair to have two 60 year old guys be an example for some of the strongest characters in the history of the galaxy.), so thus, he decided to smash the window; eventually he employed his hand-to-hand expertise to kick Sidious in the face. Also note that during the novel, it was expressed that Sidious decreased his speed and power during the last stretch on the ledge, so its possible that Windu noted his weakening- whether it was or wasn't on purpose- to disarm him. If he didn't break the window, Sidious could simply regrab his lightsaber.
Anakin is not to be underestimated, however- winning through your opponent's mistakes, however, is not to be underestimated either. In fact, SURVIVING a devestating offensive onslaught; something Windu preferred to cut off rather than block- is sufficiently impressive. Of course, Sidious' mastery of several forms- chiefly Juyo and Ataru (arguably), two offensive forms- is stronger than Anakin's unharnessed albeit powerful Djem So, but still... Obi-Wan's defense remained completely unpenetrated, while Windu left himself open at least once in the fight. Sidious did not take the shot, for some reason (check out Sidious vs. Yoda/Mace- Conclusion/Rematch?).
Now, can we please finish discussing Anakin and move back to our primary subject?
mace. The only arguement useable here for obi wan:
Mace didnt kill grevious when the met>obi wan took him out (obviously grev retreated when he encountered mace)
or
Mace got killed by anakin while obi wan killed anakin (mace was surprised and had just taken down a guy more powerful then anakin, also worn out from battle)
or
Mace took down sideous, but anakin took down mace (wait, that puts anakin on a higher level then sids and mace)
all of these theories have serious holes, so im going with windu.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Although I was fairly pro-OB1 in this argument- although I said Mace was stronger- I'm sorry, that is just bullshit. Imagine the following scene: Mace enters the office with telve other Jedi marching with him; they all gang up on the chancellor. Lol. That's just a bad idea; we noticed that Windu did not faire particularly well against Sidious while he he Kit Fisto on his side, while he later successfully put Sidious on his ass, a feat the Grand Master of the Jedi order could not replicate. Having millions of Jedi at your command will not be useful- they will get in each other's way, scared to hit each other, while Sidious does his spins, jumps, and slashes, and before you know it, it's Mace vs. Sidious again. Or worse, they just kill each other and Mace gets killed, unable to sufficiently concentrate on his target.The Sith proved that quality > quantity, as Two Sith, rather than ten thousand, took over the galaxy. Better to have three excellent combatants at your side than to have 10 Padawans. Now, Windu proved that he did not underestimate Sidious; despite the common belief, as seen by the novel, who thought that Agen Kolar and Windu alone would be enough to take down Sidious, he took some 'extra' Jedi, just to be on the safe side.
Later on, Windu showed the ability to tactically think in the fight; he was being pushed back, and overwhelmed by Sidious' furious offense and extreme speed (I'm using the book rather than the movie... it's no fair to have two 60 year old guys be an example for some of the strongest characters in the history of the galaxy.), so thus, he decided to smash the window; eventually he employed his hand-to-hand expertise to kick Sidious in the face. Also note that during the novel, it was expressed that Sidious decreased his speed and power during the last stretch on the ledge, so its possible that Windu noted his weakening- whether it was or wasn't on purpose- to disarm him. If he didn't break the window, Sidious could simply regrab his lightsaber.
Anakin is not to be underestimated, however- winning through your opponent's mistakes, however, is not to be underestimated either. In fact, SURVIVING a devestating offensive onslaught; something Windu preferred to cut off rather than block- is sufficiently impressive. Of course, Sidious' mastery of several forms- chiefly Juyo and Ataru (arguably), two offensive forms- is stronger than Anakin's unharnessed albeit powerful Djem So, but still... Obi-Wan's defense remained completely unpenetrated, while Windu left himself open at least once in the fight. Sidious did not take the shot, for some reason (check out Sidious vs. Yoda/Mace- Conclusion/Rematch?).
Now, can we please finish discussing Anakin and move back to our primary subject?
So you dnt think Mace should have even warned the other jedis (especially the ones at the jedi temple) that he was about to go arrest the sith lord and the sith lord is palpatine??? whatever.. im not gna agree with that... and im not gna agree that 8+ jedi wuldnt be able to handle sidiois... a few of them might die I know, but the main thing was to stop him.
Originally posted by skywalker833
well, it wasn't working and was getting annoying.
i jus pointed out that I dnt think that was very tactical at all of Mace.. I didnt mean for it to turn into a massive argument about just on that.. to be honest I assumed Mace fan or not that people would agree a few more jedis would not have harmed his cause, therfore he could have planned it a little better instead of just rushing there.
The novel clarified the fact that Mace contacted Yoda before engaging Sidious; I see no reason he did not do the same while on the shuttle. After all, he would be extremely dumb to not tell anyone... and I'm pretty sure he consulted Yoda before moving on to arresting Sidious. Who, I'm sure they knew, would be far stronger than any they faced before. They were right, weren't they?
And I somewhat agree with Superboy Prime... during the beginning, he was gong all out, but when the fight mvoed to the ledge, he dropped his speed and ferocity.