i would only say that anakin's power does not necessarily give him a victory over kenobi. Kenobi knew him too well to be defeated in ROTS. Nobody is arguing that Kenobi could overpower Anakin. He used Anakin's weaknesses against him, and i would make the argument that he would do so again. btw, if you ever see me arguing a lost cause for ne-body on here, it'll probably be skywalker, not kenobi. I should be able to disagree with your assessement without being labeled a "fan-boy".
How will Kenobi find Anakin's weakness? In ROTS he couldn't get anywhere near Anakin until the very end when Anakin made a mistake, a mistake that he wouldn't be able to make in most places because most places wouldn't have them ending up fighting on floating objects in a lava pool. Had they fought in almost any other location, Kenobi would have been dead. As I said before (it may have been in the Anakin vs. Kenobi thread), Anakin was controlling the pace of the fight and had Kenobi backing up the entire duel (when they were on flat ground). Kenobi is just lucky he had somewhere to back up to. Had they fought in the Geonosian Hanger, Kenobi would have been backed up against a wall and butchered. Had they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Jinn fought, there would be no "high ground" and Kenobi would eventually be killed. In most places Anakin would win, and in all places, Mace would beat Kenobi as he doesn't make "high ground" mistakes like Anakin does.
Originally posted by darthsith19
How will Kenobi find Anakin's weakness? In ROTS he couldn't get anywhere near Anakin until the very end when Anakin made a mistake, a mistake that he wouldn't be able to make in most places because most places wouldn't have them ending up fighting on floating objects in a lava pool. Had they fought in almost any other location, Kenobi would have been dead. As I said before (it may have been in the Anakin vs. Kenobi thread), Anakin was controlling the pace of the fight and had Kenobi backing up the entire duel (when they were on flat ground). Kenobi is just lucky he had somewhere to back up to. Had they fought in the Geonosian Hanger, Kenobi would have been backed up against a wall and butchered. Had they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Jinn fought, there would be no "high ground" and Kenobi would eventually be killed. In most places Anakin would win, and in all places, Mace would beat Kenobi as he doesn't make "high ground" mistakes like Anakin does.
i agree mace beats Kenobi,
what's funny though, is we seem to have a opinions that differ by 180 degrees on the Kenobi-Skywalker fight. IMO, Kenobi controlled that fight, chose the ground they fought on, and almost killed skywalker more than once (when he had him unarmed in the hallway, and when he almost left him to go over the lava-fall, on that girder thing.)
It was Anakin's 3rd mistake that finally cost him. The first mistake was to not just use the force to push Kenobi when he stepped out on that tiny tight-rope like thing, he should never have entered that enviornment with Obi-Wan. Kenobi was supposed to be the hunter here, Anakin's escape would have been considered victory (see Sidious trying to avoid fighting Yoda) His second mistake was to continue to fight on that girder instead of trying to get off of it, like Obi-Wan did, and finally, his third mistake was believing himself to be able to jump higher than he was able.
(which if you notice wasn't nearly as high as Obi-Wan was able to jump in TPM, thoughts on that? did Lucas tone down the Jedi's ability for the rest of the prequels)
neways, i think obi-wan did exactly how he pleased in the battle with Anakin. You notice he retreated as he fought, to defeat grievious, and each time he went on the offensive, he lost (Dooku twice, Maul disarmed him) I believe his retreat was calculated, and part of the reason he would defeat Anakin would lose again.
Obi-Wan was a smarter fighter, and that's why he won. Anakin was just trying to slaughter him; he wasn't controlling the fight beyond simply setting its furious pace. Kenobi was trying to stay alive, just as Palpatine was, and he used his wit and tactical superiority to do so.
Also, I noticed many of you pointing out Anakin's physical advantages; his stamina, superiority in skill, greater Force power, etc. Against Kenobi, all of these are completely nullified. Obi-Wan is the master of a form designed around simplicity and efficiency, and considering his own advanced physical conditioning he's unlikely to "tire out" to the point that Anakin could take advantage of fatigue and win. Second, Anakin's purported technical superiority is negated by the fact that Obi-Wan knows him inside and out. They've spent ludicrous amounts of time sparring or saving eachothers' asses on the battlefield, and as such Obi-Wan knows Anakin's every move. And lastly, Anakin's raw power advantage is negated by Obi-Wan's superior Force mastery. Despite not appearing to be extraordinarily powerful, his tremendous experience advantage and greater control over his abilities allow him to match Anakin fully in a Force contest, so that's obviously not going to be a deciding factor in this.
@truejedi: Anakin was basically jumping at Obi-Wan, staying within striking distance so he could kill his master. Of course, he failed miserably, but that's certainly not the extent of his jumping ability, as we see him leap a pretty significant distance from the bridge to the droid in the lava.
Originally posted by skywalker833
And Obi Wan had a chance to kill Anakin before, and could have when he disarmed him, but chose not to.
This is an incorrect assessment of the fight seeing as Obiwan went there with 1 intention, and that was to kill Anakin Skywalker. This is supported in RODV, Palpatine muses how Obiwan defeated Anakin because he came there with 1 purpose and if the Jedi were as efficient as Obiwan was when he came to Mustafar, they would have proven more difficult to topple.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
he force crushed grevious while grevious was running, so why couldnt he do it to obi wan?palp had already luged foward and engaged him in saber combat so he had to use the blade
First of all the clone wars cartoons exaggerates their powers. Second Greious doesnt have the Force to protect himself from powerful Force attacks!
Palps force powers are much greater than Maces, so Maces best chance against him is in an up close intense saber fight.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is an incorrect assessment of the fight seeing as Obiwan went there with 1 intention, and that was to kill Anakin Skywalker. This is supported in RODV, Palpatine muses how Obiwan defeated Anakin because he came there with 1 purpose and if the Jedi were as efficient as Obiwan was when he came to Mustafar, they would have proven more difficult to topple.
he went there to kill him but was hoping he wuldnt have to. "Ill do what I must" Obi-wan says AFTER trying to talk some sense into Anakin.
Also lets not forget he practically begged Anakin not to make that jump.
Originally posted by darthsith19
How will Kenobi find Anakin's weakness? In ROTS he couldn't get anywhere near Anakin until the very end when Anakin made a mistake, a mistake that he wouldn't be able to make in most places because most places wouldn't have them ending up fighting on floating objects in a lava pool. Had they fought in almost any other location, Kenobi would have been dead. As I said before (it may have been in the Anakin vs. Kenobi thread), Anakin was controlling the pace of the fight and had Kenobi backing up the entire duel (when they were on flat ground). Kenobi is just lucky he had somewhere to back up to. Had they fought in the Geonosian Hanger, Kenobi would have been backed up against a wall and butchered. Had they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Jinn fought, there would be no "high ground" and Kenobi would eventually be killed. In most places Anakin would win, and in all places, Mace would beat Kenobi as he doesn't make "high ground" mistakes like Anakin does.
First of all Anakin didnt make a mistake with the High Ground. Obi-Wan just outsmarted him fair and square. Thats the great thing about Obi-Wan... hes like the perfect jedi... He can last so long against as someone as powerful as Anakin, until he finds a way to defeat him. hes wise and smart and will use his surroundings to tacticllay gain the advantage... hes the best with the abilities he has, thats why Yoda thinks so highly of him. It wnt always be the "high ground" thing. Obi-Wans got a million tricks up his sleeve.
I personally dnt think Mace is as smart or as wise as Obi-Wan and therfore Obi-Wan could potentially find a way to defeat him tactically, or just simply outsmart him though Mace probably has this 6 or 7 out of 10 due to his superior lightsaber skills, but Obi-Wan certainly has a chance.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
Uhuuuuuuuhand he didnt defend against dooku's force choke so he probably wont be able to defend against mace's force crush either.
by the way, these guys are right, mace comfortably beat the palp but obi wan seemed to struggle against darth vader.
so i say mace is a better duelist seeing as how obi wan wont be able to get a hit in with his soresu
Dookus force abilities are much better than Maces, so you cant say because Dooku did that to Obi-Wan, Mace could.. Dooku can shoot and deflect Force lightning with his hands.. Mace needed his lightsaber to deflect FL, and was still shouting in pain. Also Dooku matched Yoda with the Force.
Mace did not Comfortably beat Palps!!! That was an intense lightsaber fight which could have gone either way. Sidious was winning first then the tables turned.
Obi-Wan is the master of defense but can also attack when he needs to. He used form 4 until Qui-Gon died, so is fully capable of attacking. I mean he didnt just defend the whole fight agianst Grevious did he! lol! as soon as he saw an opening he took it, and chopped off his arms..
but to be honest his best chance against Windu would be to keep defending until Windu tires himself out.
Originally posted by darthsith19
I edited my post with proof.ROFL, dude, that' AOTC Kenobi! What Anakin says doesn't count as proof! If that were true, Kenobi would have thrown Jango onto his ass in seconds, and Dooku would never have even engaged Yoda in a duel because Kenobi would already have killed him! You can't honestly believe that AOTC Kenobi is as powerful as Windu and as wise as Yoda.
When Anakin sed "Master Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu and as Wise as Master Yoda" what I assumed from that is the Obi-Wan is like a much younger version of Mace in terms of fighting. In other words he might be as powerful as him but not as experienced or as good a fighter yet. Maybe Obi-Wan and Mace have the same midi-chlorin count or something.
The same way I think in terms of Wisdom Obi-Wans a much much younger verison to Yoda.. We cant just ignore what Anakin says as Lucas wrote those lines but we have to put them into perspective.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all Anakin didnt make a mistake with the High Ground. Obi-Wan just outsmarted him fair and square. Thats the great thing about Obi-Wan... hes like the perfect jedi... He can last so long against as someone as powerful as Anakin, until he finds a way to defeat him. hes wise and smart and will use his surroundings to tacticllay gain the advantage... hes the best with the abilities he has, thats why Yoda thinks so highly of him. It wnt always be the "high ground" thing. Obi-Wans got a million tricks up his sleeve.I personally dnt think Mace is as smart or as wise as Obi-Wan and therfore Obi-Wan could potentially find a way to defeat him tactically, or just simply outsmart him though Mace probably has this 6 or 7 out of 10 due to his superior lightsaber skills, but Obi-Wan certainly has a chance.
When Anakin sed "Master Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu and as Wise as Master Yoda" what I assumed from that is the Obi-Wan is like a much younger version of Mace in terms of fighting. In other words he might be as powerful as him but not as experienced or as good a fighter yet. Maybe Obi-Wan and Mace have the same midi-chlorin count or something.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku tooled Kenobi and Mace has been called Dooku's equal. And, ROTFLAO, Anakin didn't make a mistake? Dude, Anakin made like a thousand mistakes, fighting Kenobi was a mistake, and attacking Kenobi when he was on the high ground was clearly a mistake, seeing as he lost half his body because of it.Basically meaning that as of AOTC, Kenobi is [b]not
as powerful as Mace, which means Anakin was wrong. If Kenobi if less experienced and not as god a fighter he can't be more powerful unless he's more powerful with the Force and nobody would agree with you there. If you really want to debate this go ahead and make an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan thread. [/B]
Why was fighting Obi-Wan a mistake... He had no choice.. Obi-Wan came looking for him... Besides Anakin was a level 9 lightsaber duelist at that point whilst Obi-Wan was a level 8.. So it certainly wasnt futile for him to challenge Obi-Wan.
Neway I didnt say Anakin never made any mistake.. I simply sed the High Ground was not a mistake, it was simply Obi-Wan better tactics nd simply outsmarting him.. As Obi-Wan is more calm and composed during a fight and uses his brain more.
Anakin had already lost before he made the jump... so making the jump in itself was not the mistake which lost him the fight.. Remember Obi-Wan says "Its Over Anakin.. I have the High Ground" Anakin had 2 choices then... either see if against all odds he can make the jump, or simply surrender to Obi-Wan. Of course he was too arrogant and had too much pride to surrender. But thats not what cost him the fight.. He had already lost.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku tooled Kenobi and Mace has been called Dooku's equal. And, ROTFLAO, Anakin didn't make a mistake? Dude, Anakin made like a thousand mistakes, fighting Kenobi was a mistake, and attacking Kenobi when he was on the high ground was clearly a mistake, seeing as he lost half his body because of it.Basically meaning that as of AOTC, Kenobi is [b]not
as powerful as Mace, which means Anakin was wrong. If Kenobi if less experienced and not as god a fighter he can't be more powerful unless he's more powerful with the Force and nobody would agree with you there. If you really want to debate this go ahead and make an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan thread. [/B]
Also your misunderstanding me about Anakins line in AOTC. Im saying Anakin meant in the context of his age.. So Obi-Wan in AOTC was probably a good match for a 35 year old Mace Windu years back.
So yes I agree Obi-Wan was no match for Mace in AOTC. And no Anakin and Lucas who wrote the line wasnt wrong, if you dnt take him out of context. And why would I create a debate about an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan when iv already sed that the ROTS Mace takes ROTS Obi-Wan like 7/10 times.
All im saying is Obi-Wan has a chance if he can hold Mace off for long enough to figure a way to defeat him. So 3/10 for Obi-Wan. 4/10 on a Really Good Day!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why was fighting Obi-Wan a mistake... He had no choice.. Obi-Wan came looking for him... Besides Anakin was a level 9 lightsaber duelist at that point whilst Obi-Wan was a level 8.. So it certainly wasnt futile for him to challenge Obi-Wan.Neway I didnt say Anakin never made any mistake.. I simply sed the High Ground was not a mistake, it was simply Obi-Wan better tactics nd simply outsmarting him.. As Obi-Wan is more calm and composed during a fight and uses his brain more.
Anakin had already lost before he made the jump... so making the jump in itself was not the mistake which lost him the fight.. Remember Obi-Wan says "Its Over Anakin.. I have the High Ground" Anakin had 2 choices then... either see if against all odds he can make the jump, or simply surrender to Obi-Wan. Of course he was too arrogant and had too much pride to surrender. But thats not what cost him the fight.. He had already lost.
Anakin chose to jump at Kenobi whilst Kenobi was on the high ground, thus is was Anakin's mistake. Kenobi didn't use the Force to pull Anakin towards the high ground, Anakin chose to jump there. Because of his decision, he lost half his body and almost died. So yes, it was a mistake. Even Obi-Wan tells him "don't try it." Anakin had other options, he could have kept moving down the river in hopes of achieving some high ground, too, or he could have surrendered, after all, surrendering is better than dying.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also your misunderstanding me about Anakins line in AOTC. Im saying Anakin meant in the context of his age.. So Obi-Wan in AOTC was probably a good match for a 35 year old Mace Windu years back.So yes I agree Obi-Wan was no match for Mace in AOTC. And no Anakin and Lucas who wrote the line wasnt wrong, if you dnt take him out of context. And why would I create a debate about an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan when iv already sed that the ROTS Mace takes ROTS Obi-Wan like 7/10 times.
All im saying is Obi-Wan has a chance if he can hold Mace off for long enough to figure a way to defeat him. So 3/10 for Obi-Wan. 4/10 on a Really Good Day!
Originally posted by darthsith19
He did have a choice. He chose to turn to the dark side, and then he chose to fight Kenobi. He could have surrendered rather than fight his brother. Or listened to him and returned to the light side. In case you didn't notice, Kenobi tried talking to Anakin and only fought him after he saw there was nothing else that could be done. So yes, it was a mistake, it was a mistake for him to be on opposite sides as Obi-Wan at all.Anakin chose to jump at Kenobi whilst Kenobi was on the high ground, thus is was Anakin's mistake. Kenobi didn't use the Force to pull Anakin towards the high ground, Anakin chose to jump there. Because of his decision, he lost half his body and almost died. So yes, it was a mistake. Even Obi-Wan tells him "don't try it." Anakin had other options, he could have kept moving down the river in hopes of achieving some high ground, too, or he could have surrendered, after all, surrendering is better than dying.
Except Anakin didn't say "He has as much potential as Master Windu, and could one day be as wise as Master Yoda", he said "He [b]IS
as powerful as Master Windu as as wise as Master Yoda." Just because Lucas wrote the line doesn't mean anything, Anakin said it and in-universe characters can be fallible. [/B]
Again hed already lost the fight... he was floating on lava there was no where else for him to go. Jumping was Anakin saying id rather die than surrender to you... so ill take my chances.. Surrendering is losing... Either way hed lost the fight.... not because he was stupid... but because Obi-Wan just outplayed him plain and simple... yes chosing the dark side was his choice... but were not talking about that... were talking about Anakins apparent stupidity in losing the fight... We could go over this all day..
Originally posted by darthsith19
He did have a choice. He chose to turn to the dark side, and then he chose to fight Kenobi. He could have surrendered rather than fight his brother. Or listened to him and returned to the light side. In case you didn't notice, Kenobi tried talking to Anakin and only fought him after he saw there was nothing else that could be done. So yes, it was a mistake, it was a mistake for him to be on opposite sides as Obi-Wan at all.Anakin chose to jump at Kenobi whilst Kenobi was on the high ground, thus is was Anakin's mistake. Kenobi didn't use the Force to pull Anakin towards the high ground, Anakin chose to jump there. Because of his decision, he lost half his body and almost died. So yes, it was a mistake. Even Obi-Wan tells him "don't try it." Anakin had other options, he could have kept moving down the river in hopes of achieving some high ground, too, or he could have surrendered, after all, surrendering is better than dying.
Except Anakin didn't say "He has as much potential as Master Windu, and could one day be as wise as Master Yoda", he said "He [b]IS
as powerful as Master Windu as as wise as Master Yoda." Just because Lucas wrote the line doesn't mean anything, Anakin said it and in-universe characters can be fallible. [/B]
and with the line from AOTC yes he did say Obi-wan is as powerful not that he has the potential to be.... but thing is this isnt politics where he has to explain exactly what he means... not everyone talks in black and white terms.... it may have been a perfectly reasonable implication and assumption as far as he was concerned....