Originally posted by Man of Christ
(panting and breathing hard) "i have failed you anakin, i have failed you"
(showing no sign of fatigue) "i should have known the jedi were plotting to take over!"toward the end of thier rots duel, kenobi was near worn out but anakin just kept comming
Obi-Wan was not breathing hard. Did this happen in the book?
No, it happened in ROTS. You are in serious need to re-watch the duel. He was breathing hard. Anakin was breathing calmly and slowly. Anakin looked like he had just taken a stroll in the park on a breezy 70 degree day. Kenobi looked like he had just ran a mile race in 85 degree weather + sun. Anakin was also driving Kenobi back the entire length of the light. Kenobi's just lucky he had somewhere to back up to!
Lucas also stated that had the duel continued without Kenobi gaining the high ground, Anakin would have won.
Anakin is stronger than Kenobi. He took out Dooku when Kenobi could not, when they eached faced 1 Magnaguard on the Invisible Hand, Anakin took his out much more quickly.
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
―Mace Windu
"Powerful Jedi, was he. Powerful Jedi."
―Yoda[src]
"This is the end for you, my master."
- Anakin Skywalker (to Obi-Wan)
Originally posted by darthsith19
Anakin only ever made that one mistake in ROTS. Every other time we see him in ROTS he doesn't make stupid mistakes like that. So chances are he wouldn't make that mistake again.
He would probably make a different one.
One thing about Anakin that stands out is the amount he gets hit with a Saber - certainly as Vader.
Against a cool cat like Kenobi he is bound to lose it.
Kenobi knows all of the buttons that he can push to make Anakin take his mind off the game, and he would use them if need be.
This is my opinion.
Originally posted by Light_Sith
He would probably make a different one.One thing about Anakin that stands out is the amount he gets hit with a Saber - certainly as Vader.
Against a cool cat like Kenobi he is bound to lose it.
Kenobi knows all of the buttons that he can push to make Anakin take his mind off the game, and he would use them if need be.
This is my opinion.
1. He only gets him on one occasion with a saber in ROTS, so it doesn't matter how often he gets hit with a saber after ROTS, since this thread is talking about ROTS Anakin.
2. Yeah, just like Grievous, Dooku, Maul, Jango, Durge and Ventress lost their minds against a "cool cat" like Kenobi?
3. Would he? Funny, then, that he didn't "push" any of Anakin's "buttons" when they dueled in ROTS, then, isn't it?
4. Yes, it is your opinion, but this is a forum where we state our opinions, and then other people who disagree with those opinions debate. If you don't want to debate, don't post, or when you post, say something like "Kenobi wins, but I don't want to debate" which pretty much makes your opinion invalid, since you're not willing to back it up.
3. Would he? Funny, then, that he didn't "push" any of Anakin's "buttons" when they dueled in ROTS, then, isn't it?
He did. "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground."
"You underestimate my power!!!" *ANAKIN PWNED* "I HATE YOU!!!" and so on.
Obi-Wan obviously said something to anakin that made anakin make a terrible tactical mistake. His rage at Kenobi, what gave him his strength, was exactly what Obi-Wan used against him. I once again contend that Obi-Wan was easily in control of their dual from the beginning. He chose the ground they fought on from beginning to end, Anakin was obviously attacking, and Obi-Wan was obviously okay with retreating, so right until Obi-Wan took Anakin a part, who was accomplishing what he was trying to accomplish? Obi-Wan for continuing to live. Anakin's offensive style, with which he was trying to destroy Kenobi, failed miserably against Kenobi's Soresu.
"Don't try it."
Kenobi did NOT wish to cut Anakin up like that. "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground." was not Kenobi pushing Anakin's buttons, it was him telling Anakin it was over, and to give up. He was being sincere, not trying to get Anakin to do something stupid. Although Anakin had turned against him, Kenobi still had feelings for Anakin and would preferred not to kill him if possible.
Originally posted by darthsith19
"Don't try it."Kenobi did NOT wish to cut Anakin up like that. "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground." was not Kenobi pushing Anakin's buttons, it was him telling Anakin it was over, and to give up. He was being sincere, not trying to get Anakin to do something stupid. Although Anakin had turned against him, Kenobi still had feelings for Anakin and would preferred not to kill him if possible.
at the biginning of the duel, "I will do what I must"
Obi-Wan certainly did not want to kill Anakin, but if he needed to, he would. And he did. Obi-Wan won because, as truejedi said, he was controlling the duel. By retreating, he was choosing the ground, waiting for an opening. Obi-Wan did not win because of luck, but because of skill and smarts. This is what makes a good jedi.
Originally posted by skywalker833
at the biginning of the duel, "I will do what I must"Obi-Wan certainly did not want to kill Anakin, but if he needed to, he would. And he did. Obi-Wan won because, as truejedi said, he was controlling the duel. By retreating, he was choosing the ground, waiting for an opening. Obi-Wan did not win because of luck, but because of skill and smarts. This is what makes a good jedi.
I once again contend that Obi-Wan was easily in control of their dual from the beginning. He chose the ground they fought on from beginning to end, Anakin was obviously attacking, and Obi-Wan was obviously okay with retreating, so right until Obi-Wan took Anakin a part, who was accomplishing what he was trying to accomplish?
Originally posted by darthsith19No, Anakin was controlling the duel. He was pushing Kenobi back the entire time. "he chose the ground they faught on from beginning to end". So he CHOSE for them to end up in the lava river? He CHOSE from them to walka cross the tight-rope (cable)? No, it was Anakin who hit the control that made them end up in the lava. And was Obi-Wan "in control of the duel" when he almost got choked to death by Anakin, and when he ended up getting Force Pushed into a control panel?
He didn't choose the lava, expressly, obi-wan had been on the planet for something like 60 seconds. He didn't know where the corridor was retreating down lead, but he didn't have to retreat down that corridor either, he chose to. Retreating is what he did. (he beat sidious that way) lost to maul, and dooku twice when he went on the offensive. (and anakin didn't know where that corridor lead, or even what the control he sliced with his lightsaber did, there was no time for that, he had barely finished killing the Seperatists, and making his report to Sidious when Padme arrived)
Anakin obviously had some measure of control while choking Obi-wan (which by the way, is that seen on film, or just the novelization?) But for the majority of it, if you watch, Anakin's effort in the fight is to kill Obi-Wan, In fact, anakin started the attack. Obi-wan successfully defends blow after blow, and retreats, looking for an opening. That's how he fights grievous onscreen.
And to your final point, At the exact same time that Obi got pushed into a control panel, Anakin got thrown across the room. There is no way you can give Anakin the advantage in that exchange.
Here is the quote from ROTS by stover: Pg 397: "In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash."
On Page 398, anakin does slam obi-wan into a wall, then moves forward to kill him. immediately. Obi-Wan, by his own abilities, is able to escape anakin, disarm him, and has a chance that both Obi-Wan AND anakin acknowledge would have killed anakin.
"You hesitate, ANakin said, "THe flaw of compassion-- It's not compassion, Obi-Wan said sadly, "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were. He sighed. It's regret for the man you should have been."
And on how they got outside: Page 401: "....He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders. Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire. Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. OBI-WAN LET ANAKIN DRIVE HIM TOWARD IT. IT WAS A PLACE, HE DECIDED, THEY SHOULD REACH TOGETHER."
I hope that at least clears up why i feel about the fight as i do.
So, the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin isn’t that easy to segment but I’ll do my best. There’s a lot of really unimportant crap like them hiding from the falling lava and swinging around to bash their sabers together once so I’ll only touch over the parts I feel hav ea good bit of relevance.
The fight begins with a lightsaber duel, each swinging away and no one seeming to gain any ground. The scene breaks away with Anakin kicking Obi-Wan away.
This’ll be a recurring theme in the fight.
Once we cut back in on the fight, more fast and furious dueling culminating in a battle down a hallway. That concludes at the exit with Anakin Force pushing Obi-Wan back a step, Obi-Wan apparently unable to counter it. Well, he looks pretty helpless to me...
We cut away again.
We cut back in and well...tell me how this looks for Obi-Wan.
(Bend it like Beckham, *****!)
Obi fights out of that and now him and Anakin tried little...kick-like things.
Now this part cuts out on Obi-Wan over Anakin.
Now this part gets a lot of mentions..the Force Push duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan, neither seeming to gain the edge.
But look for yourself.
After each fly away what looks like an equal distance, Anakin rallies almost instantly. Getting to his feet, he’s halfway across the room and on Obi-Wan before Obi-Wan can do much more than stand and defend.
After the Force push battle, Anakin gets two more kicks in before it cuts away to Palpatine/Yoda.
So, time goes by and the two eventually end up on their individual platforms ina sea of lava.
They engage in a brief lightsaber duel...after this, their faces...
Now before their final duel...
In their duel, right before Obi-Wan gets the high ground...
One thing in these above last encounters and shots I want to stress is that when we also see them, in the actual video, we can hear them. Obi-Wan gasps in the first picture right after their brief lightsaber duel. He also lets out a breath as he raises his saber for when Anakin jumps onto his platform. Through that last final battle, all we hear from either opponent is Obi-Wan’s grunts and sounds of effort.
Anakin was constantly on the attack, befitting of his style. Obi-Wan was constantly on the defense, also perfect for his form. However Anakin was the aggressor and appeared to have a larger reserve of stamina all through the battle.
just to clarify, my post should say obi-wan beat grievious that way, not sidious.
The pictures seem to give anakin at least, a martial arts advantage, but it should be pointed out that getting kicked has never hurt anyone in any battle ever, in the history of the entire star wars universe.
The same with facial expressions, Sidious has all the wrong expressions on his face right before disarming, and defeating yoda, and Obi-Wan also gets really beat up before killing grievous.
As for the level of fatigue, i'm not denying that Anakin has better stamina than Obi-Wan, my point is, the two are obviously next to equally matched. I believe this is the longest dual in the entire star wars saga. (am i right? not sure) I believe Anakin will always be aggressive to the point of making a fatal error before obi-wan does, no matter how many times the dual is fought.
You notice during the push sequence, in which you said that Anakin was halfway across the room while Obi-Wan was just getting up: Who hit the table first? Anakin hit the table, and a full second later Obi-Wan hit his. So anakin had that extra second to get up and jump across the room. Obi-wan got up in exactly the same amount of time anakin did. Now you could use the physics argument to say that proves Obi-Wan flew further, but really, in force explosions, as seen with Sidious and Yoda, there is really no control over who gets hit hardest.
as for another reason Obi-Wan looks so drained, and Anakin doesn't: Obi-Wan is being emotionally drained with this fight. (i don't have the novel with me, i'll add those quotes later, ) but it says something to the affect that with each blow, Obi-Wan was dying inside, or something like that. Notice the last picture: Obi-Wan doesn't look weak, he looks like a dude that has had his heart ripped out. Anakin looks all "i'm going to kill you mutha******" Obi-Wan asks anakin to stop over and over again during the fight, and anakin keeps coming on.
A final reason for the discrepency in facial expressions: simply, Obi-Wan has a beard. His face is going to look more haggard when he is sweaty. That's just simple fact. Not to mention his complexion is different than anakin's.. but that is just getting down into the nitty gritty.
Ya know dude, the whole "spam the thread with pictures and theories no one's going to read" was cool when Janus did it, it was acceptable when you did it the first time, but now it's starting to get redundant.. and it's killing my 56 K. For the love of god, plulz just hotlink to the images, don't directly display them here.
Actually, i just thought of one more: They are standing over Lava. its mustafar... Who has been standing on top of the lava longer? Obi-Wan had at that point where you showed them each standing on their respective droids. He has been closer to heat that makes metal go molten for longer than anakin had been, so he is going to show more fatigue. That kind of heat causes fatigue, the mere act of standing up draining the human body. mebbe that's why anakin couldn't jump as high as he wanted too in the end.