Originally posted by llagrok
Speculation.
Right so Things gets into a fight with Hulk and then gets KOed by Spiderman its sepculation to think that his fight with Hulk made him weaker?
Of course its speculation.
Dr Strange: Wow im in deep **** here looks like im going to need the power of a really powerful being.....a being so powerful that it can be one-shoted by Angel. Yeah thats what i'll do. Im only going to do battle with Hulk so im not going to need alot of durability. dur
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Right so Things gets into a fight with Hulk and then gets KOed by Spiderman its sepculation to think that his fight with Hulk made him weaker?Of course its speculation.
Dr Strange: Wow im in deep **** here looks like im going to need the power of a really powerful being.....a being so powerful that it can be one-shoted by Angel. dur
Your analogy is based on speculation 🙂
Originally posted by ultimatethorStriking an opponent whos trying to stop fighting... Hell the hand thing was another cheap shot.
Well yeah maybe CIS.And no it was not a cheap shot.
Does that mean it was bad or the wrong thing to do? Nope. Just that it wasn't even grounds.
Originally posted by ultimatethorActually:
Strange had stopped fighting the hulk but who was to say that he would not continue s he had been doing in a few seconds. What was the hulk to do ? wait for him to continue the betng before attacking? In a situation in which two characters are fighting head to head and one character gets an opportunity to punch based on the other charcters foolishness or mistakes it is not a cheap shot.
cheap shot
Main Entry: cheap shot
Function: noun
Date: 1971
1 : an act of deliberate roughness against a defenseless opponent especially in a contact sport <taking cheap shots at the quarterback>
2 : a critical statement that takes unfair advantage of a known weakness of the target
— cheap–shot transitive verb
Originally posted by ultimatethorDoesn't mean it wasn't a cheap shot. The problem is is that some people make it sound like it a straight up fight where Strange wouldn't have tried to hold Zom back the same thing would have happened.
The mark of a good fighter is to be able to capitalize on your opponents mistakes. Its not like the hulk hit im from behind or hit zom strange without being provoked. Zom was whacking the hulk the hulk took it and when he got the chance retaliated.
Originally posted by ultimatethorHow do we know it was his last weapon?
We obviously know that the portion of zom was stranges last and most pwerful weapon.
Originally posted by ultimatethorExcept we don't know how much of Zom was there when Strange was trying to reel him in.
We also know that the portion of zom was powerful enough to give strange the strength to easily manhandle the most powerful version of hulk physically( and considering this hulk had held a planet together zom strange must have been pretty strong). Therefore it would not be hard to put this version of zom far above the likes of thor physically. However in addition to taking loads of hits from this monster( hits more powerful than the midgard serpent can dish out) the hulk did amp his strengh enough to take out zomstrange in 3 punches and that is very impressive on all accounts.
It could have dropped from 1/700th to 1/1400 of Zom... or 1/100 to 1/450... We don't know how much of it was Zom so your arguments are like Llagrok said speculation.
All we know is tht ist was a fraction of Zom that Strange channeled. Great, but what fraction? 1/2? 1/4? 1/24? 1/2900456000?
And that when Strange tried to regain control the fraction might have dropped. But by how much?
We have nothing that lets us know just how impressive a feat that was. So using it ignores the context which is NOT "logical inference" Its logical fallacy.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Striking an opponent whos trying to stop fighting... Hell the hand thing was another cheap shot.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cheap+shotDoes that mean it was bad or the wrong thing to do? Nope. Just that it wasn't even grounds.
Actually:
cheap shot
Main Entry: cheap shot
Function: noun
Date: 1971
1 : an act of deliberate roughness against a defenseless opponent especially in a contact sport <taking cheap shots at the quarterback>
2 : a critical statement that takes unfair advantage of a known weakness of the target
— cheap–shot transitive verbDoesn't mean it wasn't a cheap shot. The problem is is that some people make it sound like it a straight up fight where Strange wouldn't have tried to hold Zom back the same thing would have happened.
How do we know it was his last weapon?
Except we don't know how much of Zom was there when Strange was trying to reel him in.
It could have dropped from 1/700th to 1/1400 of Zom... or 1/100 to 1/450... We don't know how much of it was Zom so your arguments are like Llagrok said speculation.
All we know is tht ist was a fraction of Zom that Strange channeled. Great, but what fraction? 1/2? 1/4? 1/24? 1/2900456000?
And that when Strange tried to regain control the fraction might have dropped. But by how much?We have nothing that lets us know just how impressive a feat that was. So using it ignores the context which is NOT "logical inference" Its logical fallacy.
By the way what exactly did they say about Zom. Did they use the word 'fraction'?
Originally posted by Creshosk
Striking an opponent whos trying to stop fighting... Hell the hand thing was another cheap shot.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cheap+shotDoes that mean it was bad or the wrong thing to do? Nope. Just that it wasn't even grounds.
Actually:
cheap shot
Main Entry: cheap shot
Function: noun
Date: 1971
1 : an act of deliberate roughness against a defenseless opponent especially in a contact sport <taking cheap shots at the quarterback>
2 : a critical statement that takes unfair advantage of a known weakness of the target
— cheap–shot transitive verbDoesn't mean it wasn't a cheap shot. The problem is is that some people make it sound like it a straight up fight where Strange wouldn't have tried to hold Zom back the same thing would have happened.
How do we know it was his last weapon?
Except we don't know how much of Zom was there when Strange was trying to reel him in.
It could have dropped from 1/700th to 1/1400 of Zom... or 1/100 to 1/450... We don't know how much of it was Zom so your arguments are like Llagrok said speculation.
All we know is tht ist was a fraction of Zom that Strange channeled. Great, but what fraction? 1/2? 1/4? 1/24? 1/2900456000?
And that when Strange tried to regain control the fraction might have dropped. But by how much?We have nothing that lets us know just how impressive a feat that was. So using it ignores the context which is NOT "logical inference" Its logical fallacy.
, In a fight between people if one person makes a mistake that leaves him open the and the other person capitalizes i dont see how its is a cheap shot. Cheap shot is normally regarded as an underhanded tactic
used to win and this is where i disagree with the hulk hitting strange as being a cheap shot as it was not underhanded in anyway. The hulk simply took advantage of his opportunity. However i agree that we cannot assume the hulk would have won without that mistake.
And now to next argument. I was in no way speculating in my argument, i simply used the evidence on panel to infer that zom strange must have been pretty powerful. For one strange new the dangers of channeling that portion of zom and was even advised against it becuase of the high level of power. Nextly we also know that by channeling the zomling strange gain enough power/strength to initially manhandle arguably the strongest and most durable version of the hulk yet. This is why i said we can easily place him as a superior to the likes of thor physically. However the hulk was able to take hits from such a being without any lasting effects. As i said very impressive. Nextly zom wasnot trying to escape from strange as you make it sound, strange rather was having problems controling the powers of zom from causing such great destruction. He was however still channeling the power and therefore still had the power but was finding it hard to control. A similar example is when at the end of WWH hulk went world breaker levels and was unable to control his enrgy and was therefore causing great destruction. He was not however losing power but having great trouble channeling his universal enrgies. It is wrong to assume that just because he was having problems controlling the enrgy he was somehow weaker than he was when he was in control of it throughout the rest of the saga. That is what should be called speculation. In his case he actually became more powerful when he let lose his enrgies. There are also many cases in which the silver surfer temporarily lost control of his enrgy but in no way did he become weaker but rather became harder to stop. Getting back to te zom incident strange being unable to control the powers of the zomling properly also shows the power of the zomling considering stranges track record of channeling the power of extremely powerful beings.
We may not know what fraction of zom being channeled but using the on panel evidence as i said b4 we can infer that it was extremely powerful and therefore WWH being able to take hits from and eventually ko strange zom is still a very impressive feat. Trying to use angel one shotting zom when in control of cho to downgrade the power of the zomling is pure foolishness considering the wide strength difference between the hulk and angel. As i have stated, the zomling only possesed
cho and his power was not being willingly channeled. Also any idiot can infer that evn if it takes the hulk 3 weak punches to take out someone, angel will NOT be able to one shot him unless the person has become drastically weaker since the hulk fight
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I think you guys are underestimating the serpent, Thor was pretty much killed fighting it (he was only saved due to a DEM IIRC)
Hulk has no chance. He can't move like Thor did, and he has no tricks that have anything to do with this opponent.
He stands on the ground, jumps once in a while, and gets killed.
End of story.
Originally posted by ultimatethorThat's your perogative to put "honor" onto such a sentiment. Mine is simply to show it was not a straight up thing, there were circustances involved that allowed him to get the hit in.
, In a fight between people if one person makes a mistake that leaves him open the and the other person capitalizes i dont see how its is a cheap shot. Cheap shot is normally regarded as an underhanded tactic
Originally posted by ultimatethorI didn't see the word "underhanded" in the definition I gave you, did you?
used to win and this is where i disagree with the hulk hitting strange as being a cheap shot as it was not underhanded in anyway.
Originally posted by ultimatethorBut how powerful?
The hulk simply took advantage of his opportunity. However i agree that we cannot assume the hulk would have won without that mistake.And now to next argument. I was in no way speculating in my argument, i simply used the evidence on panel to infer that zom strange must have been pretty powerful.
Originally posted by ultimatethorWhere did I say anything about Zom trying to escape?
For one strange new the dangers of channeling that portion of zom and was even advised against it becuase of the high level of power. Nextly we also know that by channeling the zomling strange gain enough power/strength to initially manhandle arguably the strongest and most durable version of the hulk yet. This is why i said we can easily place him as a superior to the likes of thor physically. However the hulk was able to take hits from such a being without any lasting effects. As i said very impressive. Nextly zom wasnot trying to escape from strange as you make it sound,
Originally posted by ultimatethorBut how much of the power was he still chanelling at the time hulk hit him? Was it the same ammount? Was it less?
strange rather was having problems controling the powers of zom from causing such great destruction. He was however still channeling the power and therefore still had the power but was finding it hard to control.
We don't know.
Originally posted by ultimatethorIts speculation to assume that he had the same level of power as well. I'm saying he didn't. and as you can't prove a negative the burden of proof is on your shoulders.
A similar example is when at the end of WWH hulk went world breaker levels and was unable to control his enrgy and was therefore causing great destruction. He was not however losing power but having great trouble channeling his universal enrgies. It is wrong to assume that just because he was having problems controlling the enrgy he was somehow weaker than he was when he was in control of it throughout the rest of the saga.[/b[]/quote] My argument is that he was NOT as powerful, because you seem to imply that he WAS as powerful. Burden of proof is on your shoulders to prove that he was as powerful and to prove to what level of power.[QUOTE=10432082]Originally posted by ultimatethor
[B]That is what should be called speculation.
Originally posted by ultimatethorNeither of which are a person chanelling another entity. So your analogy is false.
In his case he actually became more powerful when he let lose his enrgies. There are also many cases in which the silver surfer temporarily lost control of his enrgy but in no way did he become weaker but rather became harder to stop.
Originally posted by ultimatethorBut you still have yet to concretely prove what level he was at and that he was at the same level when he was trying to "power down"... as it were.
Getting back to te zom incident strange being unable to control the powers of the zomling properly also shows the power of the zomling considering stranges track record of channeling the power of extremely powerful beings.
Originally posted by ultimatethorAnd you need to prove what level it was in order to conclude how impressive.
We may not know what fraction of zom being channeled but using the on panel evidence as i said b4 we can infer that it was extremely powerful and therefore WWH being able to take hits from and eventually ko strange zom is still a very impressive feat.
Originally posted by ultimatethorNo actually that would be a pretty good indicator at a drop in power level. It didn't take hulk levels of strength to one shot zom/cho.
Trying to use angel one shotting zom when in control of cho to downgrade the power of the zomling is pure foolishness considering the wide strength difference between the hulk and angel.
Originally posted by ultimatethorSo because the person was not trying to channel as much power if any at all the connection was wearker therefore not as powerful? So when Strange was trying not to channel as much of Zom would he not have been weaker than when he was trying to channel more?
As i have stated, the zomling only possesed
cho and his power was not being willingly channeled.
Your own arguments do well to defeat themselves.
Originally posted by ultimatethorCan you prove that all three punches were nessicery?
Also any idiot can infer that evn if it takes the hulk 3 weak punches to take out someone, angel will NOT be able to one shot him unless the person has become drastically weaker since the hulk fight
Originally posted by llagrokNo he was not, Thor knew not to run up in that serpents face without that curse because he would have been killed....He saw his only chance because he could not die because of the curse... red norvell had no curse....What happened to him??
Midgard Serpent was only Thor's equal due to Hera's curse though.
Originally posted by james2099
No he was not, Thor knew not to run up in that serpents face without that curse because he would have been killed....He saw his only chance because he could not die because of the curse... red norvell had no curse....What happened to him??
Originally posted by Creshosk
That's your perogative to put "honor" onto such a sentiment. Mine is simply to show it was not a straight up thing, there were circustances involved that allowed him to get the hit in.I didn't see the word "underhanded" in the definition I gave you, did you?
But how powerful?
Where did I say anything about Zom trying to escape?
But how much of the power was he still chanelling at the time hulk hit him? Was it the same ammount? Was it less?
We don't know.
Its speculation to assume that he had the same level of power as well. I'm saying he didn't. and as you can't prove a negative the burden of proof is on your shoulders.
Neither of which are a person chanelling another entity. So your analogy is false.
But you still have yet to concretely prove what level he was at and that he was at the same level when he was trying to "power down"... as it were.
And you need to prove what level it was in order to conclude how impressive.
No actually that would be a pretty good indicator at a drop in power level. It didn't take hulk levels of strength to one shot zom/cho.
So because the person was not trying to channel as much power if any at all the connection was wearker therefore not as powerful? So when Strange was trying not to channel as much of Zom would he not have been weaker than when he was trying to channel more?
Your own arguments do well to defeat themselves.
Can you prove that all three punches were nessicery?
OK, there is no need to argue about whether it was a cheap shot or not since we both agree that circumstances were what allowed hulk to get in hits in the first place. The only difference is dat i believe it should not be called a cheap shot becuz of regardless of the actual definition people ususally regard cheapshots as underhanded moves.
Nextly u r totally misunderstanding the concept of strnge channeling zom. Firstly zom had merged with strange and that is why he is usually reffered to as strnge/zom. Now after the merge or after zom occupied stranges body, strange began to channel the power of zom that was now WITHIN him. This is the reason my to exmples were relevant becuase the power was WITHIN them but they were emanating too much of it . This is why i stated that zom was NOT trying to escape from strange as you made it sound when u used the term " reel him in". The problem howver occured when strange was unable to control the power of zom WITHIN him. He was unable to limit the power of zom that was coming out of him to only the power he WAS CHANNELING. Hence he was unable to CONTROL this immense power and as more and more of it continued to come out of him and he was unable to properly CHANNEL it and stop it from causing all the destruction. The power within strange was too much for him to properly channel for what he wanted to use it for which was to stop WWH. Therefore in NO WAY did strange become WEAKER becuase the power coming out of him was NOT less as you say but MORE than he could properly control or channel . When the hulk hit him was during the time that TOO MUCH power was coming out of him and he was still trying to properly channel it. Therefore when the hulk hit him he was emanating MORE power than at any other time during the fight and NOT LESS POWER. Indeed he was TRYING to reduce the level of power but was failing miserably.
To the next point of establishing a power level, I have already established one. Strange zom was able to physically manhandle the most powerful version of hulk. This is something people like thor have failed to do against much weaker versions of the hulk. Therefore it can be said that he is physically considerably superior to thor. As i have said for the hulk to take hits frm such a physical being( superior to thor) come out with no lasting damage and ko him at a time in which he was emanating the most power is an impressive feat to say the least.
Now you also misunderstood my statements about cho, what i meant was that there WAS a drop in power level from the time he fought hulk to the time he fought angel. I was talking about those that tried to downgrade the ORIGINAL power of the zomling during the time he fought hulk using the angel incident.
My arguments certainly do not defeat themselves but u have simply misunderstood the entire concept. How in the world can you even attempt to relate the cho incident to when the power was too much for strange to control? The zomling was weaker when he possesed cho and the fact that cho was not willingly channeling it means that evn less power was comuing out. That incident is entirely different from a time in which the zomling was so powerful that strange could not limit the amount of enrgy coming from him to that which he was trying to channel. In stranges case the zomling was TOO powerful to properly channel while in chos case the zomling was already weak and there was not evn an attempt to channel or harness the already low power it had at that time.
The overall logic therefore is that when the power within you is too much for you to properly channel and you are inadvertently using MORE power than you initially wanted to then you are TOO powerful for your own good and the good of others and NOT LESS powerful. Futher for the hulk to ko a being physically superior to thor a a time in which he was using too much power to be properly channeled is a VERY impressive feat
Originally posted by CreshoskSo because the person was not trying to channel as much power if any at all the connection was wearker therefore not as powerful? So when Strange was trying not to channel as much of Zom would he not have been weaker than when he was trying to channel more?
Your own arguments do well to defeat themselves.
?
Note the use of the word TRYING in stranges case. He was trying not to chanel as much because too much was coming out of him. The reason he was TRYING not to channel as much was becuase he was already using TOO MUCH. He also failed to reduce the power coming out of him and so DID NOT GET WEAKER when the hulk koed him. Strange was only TRYING to reduce the power he was using but failed. Cho however was not channeling anything and was NOT evn trying to use the power at all but was simply a vesell for a weakened zom to possess.
How did he one-shot Zom.....
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2186/wwh4strange09jm6.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9454/wwh4strange10gp7.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3192/wwh4strange11xr9.jpg
Ok so let me get this straight right.....Zom in the body of Strange can take multiple punches from the most powerful version of the Hulk but the Zom koed by Angel had the same durability or had terrible durability? 🤨
it's different.
Amadeus Cho was possessed by the zomling, that escapes the fallen Zom/Strange, whereas Strange was channelling a fraction of Zom's power, which he expended in his battle with Hulk.
one is an active process of obtaining power from an immense being, the other is that immense being's residue possessing a creature in order to re-energise and re-manifest itself into reality.
it's like the Hunger possessing Galactus, it is a naturally weak way to access this reality. whilst say, calling on a God to empower you is far far stronger way to access this reality.
Strange was becoming possessed by the Zomling too, the power was affecting his reasoning and making him careless about the consequences of his actions (endangering bystanders), but primarily Strange was channelling and infusing his physical form with (a fraction of) the power of Zom.
it's an incantation not a possession.
remember, Strange's manservant explained that he got an urn to trap the Zomling in, that it had +escaped+ Zom/Strange's body after the power was used up (when Hulk overpowered Zom/Strange), that it was seeking a host to use in order to re-manifest itself and get back its power.
Originally posted by ultimatethorAd populem.
OK, there is no need to argue about whether it was a cheap shot or not since we both agree that circumstances were what allowed hulk to get in hits in the first place. The only difference is dat i believe it should not be called a cheap shot becuz of regardless of the actual definition people ususally regard cheapshots as underhanded moves.
Originally posted by ultimatethorI'm sorry if you misunderstood a term that's also used for gaining control of a loose canon...
Nextly u r totally misunderstanding the concept of strnge channeling zom. Firstly zom had merged with strange and that is why he is usually reffered to as strnge/zom. Now after the merge or after zom occupied stranges body, strange began to channel the power of zom that was now WITHIN him. This is the reason my to exmples were relevant becuase the power was WITHIN them but they were emanating too much of it . This is why i stated that zom was NOT trying to escape from strange as you made it sound when u used the term " reel him in".
Originally posted by ultimatethorBullshit The Zom aspect was going out of control with the whole "Strange smash" thing. You got and proof that he remained at the same power leve lwhen Strange was trying to reel him in?
The problem howver occured when strange was unable to control the power of zom WITHIN him. He was unable to limit the power of zom that was coming out of him to only the power he WAS CHANNELING. Hence he was unable to CONTROL this immense power and as more and more of it continued to come out of him and he was unable to properly CHANNEL it and stop it from causing all the destruction. The power within strange was too much for him to properly channel for what he wanted to use it for which was to stop WWH. Therefore in NO WAY did strange become WEAKER
And no he was not trying to escape, trying expanding your vocabulary and term useage. Strange was trying to prevent the wanton destruction that was starting to occur around him. You have no evidence he remained as stong as he did and are simply trying to overhype the feat as you hulk fanboys tend to do.
Originally posted by ultimatethorAnd he was trying to channel less so that he could get a better control over it that you admit he did not have. Sort of like with a faucet thats turned onto full blast and then you try to turn it to a lower setting so not as much is coming out.
becuase the power coming out of him was NOT less as you say but MORE than he could properly control or channel .
Originally posted by ultimatethorWhen hulk hit him he was fighting to control the power so it wasn't as much that was being used.
When the hulk hit him was during the time that TOO MUCH power was coming out of him and he was still trying to properly channel it.
Originally posted by ultimatethorBullshit. He was not ementating MORE POWER when he was fighting to control the level of power. Agaion as with the faucet, when you turn the faucet down, MORE doesn't come out, LESS comes out.
Therefore when the hulk hit him he was emanating MORE power than at any other time during the fight and NOT LESS POWER.
Originally posted by ultimatethorBullshit excuse by a hulk fanboy.
Indeed he was TRYING to reduce the level of power but was failing miserably.
Originally posted by ultimatethorAnd is totally being skewed by your hulk fanboyism. When you fight to control the level of power you're eminating, its NOT more that comes out, its less.
To the next point of establishing a power level, I have already established one. Strange zom was able to physically manhandle the most powerful version of hulk. This is something people like thor have failed to do against much weaker versions of the hulk. Therefore it can be said that he is physically considerably superior to thor. As i have said for the hulk to take hits frm such a physical being( superior to thor) come out with no lasting damage and ko him at a time in which he was emanating the most power is an impressive feat to say the least.
Originally posted by ultimatethorBecause someone whio isn't trying to chanel the high level of power such as Strange when trying to get control of the situation or Cho who didn't want the power, the durability was vastly decreased. Hence when Strange was struggling to gain control HIS durability would have been decreased. Not incresed like you're speculating.
Now you also misunderstood my statements about cho, what i meant was that there WAS a drop in power level from the time he fought hulk to the time he fought angel. I was talking about those that tried to downgrade the ORIGINAL power of the zomling during the time he fought hulk using the angel incident.
Originally posted by ultimatethorNow you're projecting.
My arguments certainly do not defeat themselves but u have simply misunderstood the entire concept.
Originally posted by ultimatethorBecause strange was fighting to control it. and when you're trying to control it rather than allowing it to just gush out LESS comes out. Much like when you're trying NOT to let it come out at all the durability is decreased again.
How in the world can you even attempt to relate the cho incident to when the power was too much for strange to control?
Originally posted by ultimatethorExcept in strange's case where he started to not willingly channel as much power and appearently that INCREASED his strength so that the Hulk feat seems even more impressive than it actually was, right fanboy?
The zomling was weaker when he possesed cho and the fact that cho was not willingly channeling it means that evn less power was comuing out.
Originally posted by ultimatethorIn your dreams... Trying not to channel power is the same as trying not to chanel power. Its a sham distinction to think otherwise.
That incident is entirely different from a time in which the zomling was so powerful that strange could not limit the amount of enrgy coming from him to that which he was trying to channel.
Originally posted by ultimatethorExcept trying not to channel great levels of power is the same as trying to not channel the great levels of power.
In stranges case the zomling was TOO powerful to properly channel while in chos case the zomling was already weak and there was not evn an attempt to channel or harness the already low power it had at that time.
Originally posted by ultimatethorSomething you're sorely lacking.
The overall logic
Originally posted by ultimatethorYes because whne trying not to channel more power you actually DO channel more power and thus your durability will go UP, hence why Cho got one shotted...
therefore is that when the power within you is too much for you to properly channel and you are inadvertently using MORE power than you initially wanted to then you are TOO powerful for your own good and the good of others and NOT LESS powerful.
Oh wait that totally negates your argument of when strange was trying to channel less power and his power went up..
Originally posted by ultimatethorWhich is doubtful as the Cho incident shows concretely that if you're trying to channel less power your durability is NOT increased.
Futher for the hulk to ko a being physically superior to thor a a time[b/]
Originally posted by ultimatethorSUre it was fanboy, sure it was...
[B] in which he was using too much power to be properly channeled is a VERY impressive feat
