Thor vs Superman

Originally posted by Soujaboy
She didn't stab him in his face, she slashed at his neck.

Answer the question please...

Slash someone with a knife...

Smash someone's face in with a sledge hammer...

Which appears to be more painful? which leaves more damage?

sledge hammer to the face.

ok, now let's leave reality and go back to comics. you do realize the writers and artists don't think that deeply through right? they're not going for accuracy

one day, Supe gets hit hard and gets damage, another day he gets hit even harder and just shrugs it off

thats the nature of comics, its always inconsistent because different ppl are working on it

Originally posted by Soujaboy
She didn't stab him in his face, she slashed at his neck.

Answer the question please...

Slash someone with a knife...

Smash someone's face in with a sledge hammer...

Which appears to be more painful? which leaves more damage?

i didnt say she did at all... if you want a fair comparison to the hammer then it would have to be stabbing... 😬

remember that even after she cut him he healed pretty quickly...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't allude me. You know exactly what I am referring to. I'm not arguing that a throw hammer to a person's face would cut their face. I'm arguing that it would crush their damn face in. If you want to volunteer, I'll demonstate by throwing a hammer at your face. Or I'm sure youtube.com has got an idiot demonstrating what would happen in a video. If I had a magic boxing glove and punched Superman in the mouth, yes... that would give him a bloody lip. If I threw a damn hammer in his face... no that would result in more than a bloodly lip.

Don't evade the point. Don't try to explain that a hammer is blunt and has a larger area to cover. Bullsh1t. If the result of a magic hammer being thrown in Superman's face was directly analagous to what happens to Superman in other instances:

1) Magic tiara shreds his throat.
2) Magic fire burns him.
3) Magic bonds bind him.

Then this would result and you know that logic screams this:

4) Magic hammer thrown in the face would bash his face in.

As the way you're arguing it, the only way a thrown magic hammer would only result in a bloody lip is if somehow his durability was not negated. In that case, the above situations would result:

1) Magic tiara nicks his throat.
2) Magic fire singes him.
3) Magic bonds slow him down.

We know that's not how it works. And the whole "blunt object has more area to cover" is garbage and you both are smart enough to know that. If you're not, then you won't have any problem letting me throw a rock hammer in your faces. Apparently, you believe it will only result in a bloody lip.

how about, not all magic is equal?

Mjolnir detects that superman is a great and noble being, therefore it's magical devastating effects are dampened. Superman is a being worthy of wielding Mjolnir, it can't harm him like other forms of magic. This is just a possibility.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't allude me. You know exactly what I am referring to. I'm not arguing that a throw hammer to a person's face would cut their face. I'm arguing that it would crush their damn face in. If you want to volunteer, I'll demonstate by throwing a hammer at your face. Or I'm sure youtube.com has got an idiot demonstrating what would happen in a video. If I had a magic boxing glove and punched Superman in the mouth, yes... that would give him a bloody lip. If I threw a damn hammer in his face... no that would result in more than a bloodly lip.

Don't evade the point. Don't try to explain that a hammer is blunt and has a larger area to cover. Bullsh1t. If the result of a magic hammer being thrown in Superman's face was directly analagous to what happens to Superman in other instances:

1) Magic tiara shreds his throat.
2) Magic fire burns him.
3) Magic bonds bind him.

Then this would result and you know that logic screams this:

4) Magic hammer thrown in the face would bash his face in.

As the way you're arguing it, the only way a thrown magic hammer would only result in a bloody lip is if somehow his durability was not negated. In that case, the above situations would result:

1) Magic tiara nicks his throat.
2) Magic fire singes him.
3) Magic bonds slow him down.

We know that's not how it works. And the whole "blunt object has more area to cover" is garbage and you both are smart enough to know that. If you're not, then you won't have any problem letting me throw a rock hammer in your faces. Apparently, you believe it will only result in a bloody lip.

wow... that was a tad one sided... you dont think so?

and as i said, the tiara was more superficial than anything, he healed quickly enough...

Originally posted by masterbruce
you do realize that comics are always inconsistent right? different writers and different artists portray things differently and even the same writer and artist will sometimes portray things differently.

I mean, why can Thor beat a cosmic being one day and struggle against a pathetic avengers villain the next? writers don't write comics with consistency in mind so that we KMC debaters can have solid evidence to argue with, their SOLE goal is to make the comic interesting so that people will buy it, regardless of whether it contradicts previous things or not.

Originally posted by masterbruce
how about, not all magic is equal?

Mjolnir detects that superman is a great and noble being, therefore it's magical devastating effects are dampened. Superman is a being worthy of wielding Mjolnir, it can't harm him like other forms of magic. This is just a possibility.

And no, I don't think it's one-sided pr1983. If you do, then point out the weakness or contradiction in my logic. Everything I state makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by masterbruce
how about, not all magic is equal?

Mjolnir detects that superman is a great and noble being, therefore it's magical devastating effects are dampened. Superman is a being worthy of wielding Mjolnir, it can't harm him like other forms of magic. This is just a possibility.

😆 You think of this all by yourself?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
😆 You think of this all by yourself?

yes. you agree with it?

Originally posted by masterbruce
yes. you agree with it?

No. It was a bit misguided and ill informed.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And no, I don't think it's one-sided pr1983. If you do, then point out the weakness or contradiction in my logic. Everything I state makes perfect sense.

to you. 😬

first, i think you're overestimating the damage diana's tiara did to superman, he healed quickly enough...

second, i'm not debating for one second that a hammer doesn't cause damage when it hits you, it'd hurt like a motherf*cker, but thats not the point...

if you stab me in the eye, you can destroy my eye, and even pierce my brain (if the angle was correct), and probably kill me. if you raise a hammer and hit me in the same spot, it can shatter bone, it can probably destroy my eye socket, but i'm more likely to survive that than i am the stabbing...

stabbing (imo in most cases) does more critical damage at a comparable level to a hammer... 😬

now, i have nothing but admiration for busiek, he's a fine writer on his day, but the crossovers are fraught with bullshit... unfortunately, being that this is a cross company fight, the only real comparison that can be made is from the fight itself (as messed up as it is). i dont think it should be taken literally, but as a start-off point i think its a necessity...

to Onedumbgo

maybe it was Diana's tiara cutting superman that was PIS?

Look, I'm going to step back a little here. I don't mean my criticisms to sound as scathing as they are. They are not personal insults. But some of the explanations and counterarguments are reaching the point of pure ludicrousness and I do wish to point that out.

1) Snoop cites that some character who absorbs power and has no weakness to magic is directly analagous to Superman who has a weakness to magic.
2) Pr1983 argued that a hammer has more impact area, so the force of the strike would be spread out and not result in a mangled face.
3) Masterbruce argued that Mjolnir differentiated Superman's nobility from other targets and didn't bring its full power to bear on Superman.
4) Pr1983 then said that the tiara throw's effect was superficial. (No it wasn't, it completely stopped bloodlusted Superman in his tracks because his throat was shredded and put him on his knees.)
5) Pr1983 also states that you can survive a blow to the face with a hammer. (Completely off-point. I know you can survive. I never argued that Superman would be dead with one Mjolnir blow. But you're gonna come out of it with worse than a mere bloody lip. Like you said, cracked bone or better yet, a great big bruise. But stop ignoring that this isn't a rubber mallet. Its a rock hammer. A thrown rock hammer in the face would smash your face.)
6) Masterbruce argues now that the tiara slice in 'Sacrifice' is the PIS and not the JLA/Avengers fight. Lovely. (Keep in mind that Jim Lee's run on Superman showed Diana flicking a dagger on Superman's cheek and it cut him there too. So you'd have to argue that case was PIS too.)

These excuses are ridiculously attenuated. They stretch the limits of plausibility. The fact that these are indicative of all the arguments for the "accurateness of the JLA/Avengers fight" is simple evidence that there is no logical coherent explanation for what happened in JLA/Avengers other than Busiek ignored the weakness to magic. Therefore, if he ignored the weakness to magic because he was, as sometimes writers are, extremely inconsistent with comic mythos, then you cannot in all good conscience continue to cite such a fight as being PIS-free or consistent. It isn't. It's stupid. Don't think hard about it. Superman supporters have far better things to race to for support of Big Blue.

Don't confuse Thor fanboyism or DC-haterade with the validity of their complaints with the fight. It really is a stupidly and poorly written fight. The support for the logic of the fight is available for review. And as you can see from the cursory list, the support for the logic of the fight is attenuated, weak, ignorant, off-point or overreaching.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
2) Pr1983 argued that a hammer has more impact area, so the force of the strike would be spread out and not result in a mangled face.

no, thats not what i meant (and if it sounded that way im sorry, wrong choice of words). of course you're going to be in a mess, but i dont know if we can apply human standards to superman... he's taken blows from doomsday and not been mangled, and doomsday is pretty f*ckin strong...

4) Pr1983 then said that the tiara throw's effect was superficial. (No it wasn't, it completely stopped bloodlusted Superman in his tracks because his throat was shredded and put him on his knees.)

ok superficial was the wrong word... it did hurt him, but it wasnt a stabbing, it grazed him (causing damage no doubt), and more than anything (imo), it looked to me as if a state of shock came over him... i'm not saying there was no damage, just that he healed pretty quickly...

5) Pr1983 also states that you can survive a blow to the face with a hammer. (Completely off-point. I know you can survive. I never argued that Superman would be dead with one Mjolnir blow. But you're gonna come out of it with worse than a mere bloody lip. Like you said, cracked bone or better yet, a great big bruise. But stop ignoring that this isn't a rubber mallet. Its a rock hammer. A thrown rock hammer in the face would smash your face.)

of course it would, and it was crap writing, BUT, and i said this already, i dont see how we can apply our standards to superman (or for that matter thor). of course he'd have more than a bloody lip, but as for his face being completely smashed, i'd have to disagree, as he's taken some pretty heavy hits before... maybe its PIS, maybe not, but the guy is as tough as they come (just like thor).

you cannot in all good conscience continue to cite such a fight as being PIS-free or consistent. It isn't. It's stupid. Don't think hard about it. Superman supporters have far better things to race to for support of Big Blue.

i didnt, and i am... 😛

Don't confuse Thor fanboyism or DC-haterade with the validity of their complaints with the fight. It really is a stupidly and poorly written fight. The support for the logic of the fight is available for review. And as you can see from the cursory list, the support for the logic of the fight is attenuated, weak, ignorant, off-point or overreaching.

i wasnt referring to the fight much if at all... i've never read it so i cant use it as a base of comparison, only the scans ive seen... they may have ludicrous elements, but i have seen alot worse...

i recall superman taking shazam's lighting several times in a row and surviving, even to the point of continuing the fight... magic is a weakness, but its not an off-switch either... 😬

again, im not sayin the hammer only busting his lip is valid...

Originally posted by pr1983
no, thats not what i meant (and if it sounded that way im sorry, wrong choice of words). of course you're going to be in a mess, but i dont know if we can apply human standards to superman... he's taken blows from doomsday and not been mangled, and doomsday is pretty f*ckin strong...

Originally posted by pr1983
ok superficial was the wrong word... it did hurt him, but it wasnt a stabbing, it grazed him (causing damage no doubt), and more than anything (imo), it looked to me as if a state of shock came over him... i'm not saying there was no damage, just that he healed pretty quickly...

Originally posted by pr1983
of course it would, and it was crap writing, BUT, and i said this already, i dont see how we can apply our standards to superman (or for that matter thor). of course he'd have more than a bloody lip, but as for his face being completely smashed, i'd have to disagree, as he's taken some pretty heavy hits before... maybe its PIS, maybe not, but the guy is as tough as they come (just like thor).

Originally posted by pr1983
i recall superman taking shazam's lighting several times in a row and surviving, even to the point of continuing the fight... magic is a weakness, but its not an off-switch either... 😬

again, im not sayin the hammer only busting his lip is valid...

Spiderman beats Firelord is utter PIS and nobody cites it for debating, because the fight utterly ignores Firelord's herald-level speed and durability. Here, the JLA/Avengers fight is utter PIS and should not be cited for debating, because the fight utterly and singularly ignores Superman's weakness to magic.

^^ Great post. Co-signed in near entirety.

...near entirety because of the SM/FL thing. I've cited it before.

😮

Superman's weakness to magic is way over rated on this board. It's like people believe that if I cast a magical spell over a butterknife I'd be able to slice him just because its magical

Perhaps JL/Avengers was PIS, but perhaps Sacrifice was also PIS.

Originally posted by masterbruce
Superman's weakness to magic is way over rated on this board. It's like people believe that if I cast a magical spell over a butterknife I'd be able to slice him just because its magical

Perhaps JL/Avengers was PIS, but perhaps Sacrifice was also PIS.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Slash someone with a knife...

Smash someone's face in with a sledge hammer...

Which appears to be more painful? which leaves more damage?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'd like to see a scan of that. But granting what you just said, Count Nefaria absorbs power. Count Nefaria has no weakness to magic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You ought to end this part with "... and it was crappy writing..." Yes, Superman has taken heavy hits, but as I responded above, this isn't just another heavy hit. This is a heavy hit backed by magic.

1. Etrigan knocked him into orbit.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermandemonfire.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermandemonfire2.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermandemonfire3.jpg

2. Advesary knocked him halfway across the globe.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/SupermanvsAdvesary2.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/SupermanvsAdvesary3.jpg

Here Superman inhales magical gases:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermaninhaleact762.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermaninhaleact762-2.jpg

Do you know of any cases where a single heavy hit backed by magic knocked Superman out? No cheap shots.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Here, the JLA/Avengers fight is utter PIS and should not be cited for debating, because the fight utterly and singularly ignores Superman's weakness to magic.

..And yet i have no doubt those swinging from Big Blues Kryptonian nut-sack would just ignore us.

Originally posted by masterbruce
Superman's weakness to magic is way over rated on this board. It's like people believe that if I cast a magical spell over a butter knife I'd be able to slice him just because its magical

Perhaps JL/Avengers was PIS, but perhaps Sacrifice was also PIS.

If the butter knife was actually sharpened (and not blunt) then yes , you could cut Supes.