Superman is way faster than Thor.
Superman is MUCH stronger than Thor. (Superman can lift upwards of 1 quintillion tons (1,000,000,000,000,000,000) and Thor can at best lift around 300 tons (since he's about as strong as Hercules))
How in the world will Thor win against someone over a BILLION times stronger than he is?
Originally posted by masterbruce
Superman is way faster than Thor.Superman is MUCH stronger than Thor. (Superman can lift upwards of 1 quintillion tons (1,000,000,000,000,000,000) and Thor can at best lift around 300 tons (since he's about as strong as Hercules))
How in the world will Thor win against someone over a BILLION times stronger than he is?
The sad part about it is that your serious. 🙁
Originally posted by His Airness
The sad part about it is that your serious. 🙁
so tell me, how strong do you think Thor is and how strong do you think Superman is?
Superman is known to be capable of at least 1 quintillion tons (18 zerso)...All Star Superman was able to easily lift 200 quintillion tons with one arm!
So tell me, how many tons can Thor lift?
Originally posted by masterbruce
so tell me, how strong do you think Thor is and how strong do you think Superman is?Superman is known to be capable of at least 1 quintillion tons (18 zerso)...All Star Superman was able to easily lift 200 quintillion tons with one arm!
So tell me, how many tons can Thor lift?
Their both, along with Hercules, Gladiator, Black Adam, Hulk, Juggernaut, in the planetary lv strength range. Placing a gauge on their strength would be impossible as they all have impressive feats.
Change known to "I think". Even so that isn't an impressive range to be placed in when considering the more impressive feats of the characters mentioned above.
200 quintillion tons is less than 1/20 of the earths mass. Far from Superman's most impressive feat.
Don't know.
Originally posted by His Airness
Their both, along with Hercules, Gladiator, Black Adam, Hulk, Juggernaut, in the planetary lv strength range. Placing a gauge on their strength would be impossible as they all have impressive feats.Change known to "I think". Even so that isn't an impressive range to be placed in when considering the more impressive feats of the characters mentioned above.
200 quintillion tons is less than 1/20 of the earths mass. Far from Superman's most impressive feat.
Don't know.
I appreciate the response, it's logical.
I remember people said Hercules was about a 300 tonner, and that Hulk in base level was a 100 tonner.
If these guys are planetary level, then how does a guy like Namor, who is barely 100 tonner, hold his own against guys who are over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 ton class?
Originally posted by masterbruceHow does death stroke tag flash or wolverine hang with Hulk. Its a comic.
I appreciate the response, it's logical.I remember people said Hercules was about a 300 tonner, and that Hulk in base level was a 100 tonner.
If these guys are planetary level, then how does a guy like Namor, who is barely 100 tonner, hold his own against guys who are over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 ton class?
Originally posted by masterbruce
I appreciate the response, it's logical.I remember people said Hercules was about a 300 tonner, and that Hulk in base level was a 100 tonner.
If these guys are planetary level, then how does a guy like Namor, who is barely 100 tonner, hold his own against guys who are over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 ton class?
Hercules is way above the 100 ton mark. Throwing the earth out of orbit, and physically closing a dimensional rift alone would place him with the best and most powerful characters when discussing physical attributes.
Hulk is to inconsistent to determine.
Comics are written to entertain. Of course one character will be "dumbed' down while another is written unusually impressive to make a fight entertaining. Who would by a comic when so many battles are ended in one shot?
Characters don't have to be dumbed down in order for the story to hold weight. There are perfectly valid reasons why Flash could get tagged or why Thor would strain in strength.
I'd imagine that in the same way Superman writers have written how much he holds back, many super-powered characters do as well. Consider Flash. How could he ever get tagged by Cold's ice-gun? Well, there was something interesting in 'Rogue War' if you read it. Flash was in the waiting room of a hospital awaiting a pregnancy test result. When he is alone and brooding, the seconds feel like an eternity to him. He thinks about how in that state he cannot relate to anybody. He actually reads medical encyclopedias during the several minutes he waits. He gets jogged out of this state by his wife.
Now think about that. Flash, using the Speedforce all the time to accelerate his perception would basically have to live his life out like that where seconds feel like hours. Can you imagine going into a fight, tapping the Speed Force fully in that manner and having to spend a literal eternity waiting for someone to throw a punch so you can dodge it? I would think that Flash consciously chooses to stay in real-time or an accelerated version of it while vastly accelerating his motor skills. That's why he could run into Deathstroke's sword before realizing it. He's sped up his motor skills but not his perception. Do any of you doubt that he could have that kind of control?
Is it always smart in a fight? No. Is it recommended? No. But dammit. If the man is going to keep sane, he's got to do that. Think about also when he's fighting alongside other people. Consider how important communication is during team fights. If he accelerates his perception to such a degree that seconds feel like minutes or hours or days, he could never communicate with his teammates. So other than sanity, you have communication to think about. This explains every single time why Flash gets nicked by a boomerang, or grazed with a bullet or smacked in the face with a punch or quite famously stabbed in the shoulder by a sword.
The same can go for all potential, but not confirmed (WW, Thor, Surfer) and obvious super speedsters (Supes, Flash). In the beginning of 'House of M,' Quicksilver screams at Magneto but he's so distraught and caught up in what he is saying, he doesn't realize he's speaking at superspeed and Magneto can't understand. He then consciously slows himself down to communicate with Magneto. Same concept. Yes, your natural state can be superspeed, but if you want to interact with others, you have to bring yourself down to their level.
Superman controls himself in a similar manner. He consciously limits himself. He doesn't walk around with full strength and then tries to touch things with a mere fraction of his strength. He appears to have great control in how much strength he has available at any time. Indeed, he was able to will himself to a depowered state and back again during "52" and "One Year Later." Like the other guy said, it'd be crazy trying to walk around using only a millionth of your strength. He limits his power very precisely. Which can explain why he can get punched in the face by an admittedly non super-speedster and knocked back in one instance and then later on speedblitz him. Think of your typical Mongul fight.
Now take those ideas and project them onto a being like Thor. Because Thor is a whole lot different. He is a god. An immortal. The significance I take from his immortality is that he has lived thousands of years. I would imagine that 10 years is really only a mere week for a being such as him. You read comparisons like this all the time in comics, where immortal beings exhort their mortal counterparts about how their lifetimes are a mere speck compared to their own. It's like comparing our own life to a mayfly's life that lasts days.
So what's my point? My point is this: In order for Thor to live among us and interact with mortals, he has to adjust his consciousness and power to a certain level. While I'm not trying to draw religious parallels, it's like God in the form of Jesus Christ. God could spend an eternity in a single instant or consider an eternity to be a single instant to Him. But as Jesus Christ, He brought Himself down to a mortal's existence and state of being to interact with us on a personal level.
So what does this mean? This is the logical reason to reconcile all the feats Thor has had and all the intuitions that fans have of him. He is capable of super-speed and super-strength. Intuition tells us so since he has thrown down with Surfer and Gladiator. Think about it some more. Thor could think and react in super-speeds. Thor could obliterate the planet with one powerful Mjolnir strike. But to do so would be to force himself out of a state that he has consciously attuned himself to in this mortal world. If you want to have a conversation with Captain America, you have to think, act and communicate on a mortal level. If you're in your full-powered form all the time with all the benefits of an immortal mind, how could you carry on a conversation with Cap? This is exactly why cosmic beings employ M-bodys or manifestations to communicate to mortals or interact with them.
This idea can explain the infamous Mongoose incident and help reconcile it with how Thor could instinctively raise Mjolnir to deflect a bolt of Phoenix's telepathic energy. In the former, he's been walking around trying to relate to us mortals and consciously attuned himself to our conception of time, our perceptions of speed, etc. He gets bushwhacked by Mongoose. It takes him a conscious effort to reassert himself and say, "Screw this. I'm taking your ass down. You think you know fast?" In the latter incident, Phoenix Rachel Grey shoots a bolt of telepathic energy at him and Thor raises Mjolnir and deflects it. Such an attack is about as instantaneous as you can get. Such an accomplishment requires ftl speeds on Thor's part just to move his arms. But if you read the captions, Thor does not consciously assess the threat in superspeed accelerated thought. His battle instincts, in direct proportion to the size and speed of the threat immediately allow him to access superspeed to raise his hands from his waist to in front of his face to deflect the telepathic bolt. His instincts allowed him to skip the part where he had to consciously reassert his immortal nature and the power and speed he was privy to.
This can explain why both events, which appear to be so widely disparate, could feasibly happen to the same character. Indeed, both of those events happened during the same writer's run on Thor, if I'm not mistaken. Thor, even more than Superman, has to attune his immortal mind and spirit to be able to interact coherently with a mortal world. Indeed, that is exactly why Odin sent him to Earth and gave him his Donald Blake persona, to live like a mortal and understand mortality. It was Thor's purpose on Marvel Earth. And this can also explain why he so often relies on pouring his power into Mjolnir rather than extending it directly from himself. Mjolnir acts as a buffer and conduit for his immortal forces, which if fully utilized just through himself could have grave consequences. Thus this also explains why he used Mjolnir to eventually stop Mongoose rather than just accelerating himself to superspeeds.
And now to finally address masterbruce's comment, the same thing applies to super strength. Limiting yourself to 100 ton strength helps you cope with having to live in this fragile world and most of the time it is enough to deal with the superpowered threats you face, like Namor. If 100 ton strength is good enough and usually gets the job done in most situations, why bother undoing the limits you've set upon yourself? Then again, every once in a while, you have to tow the Earth or grapple the Midgard Serpent and you're forced to kick it up a notch. No disrespect to Namor, but beings like Juggernaut and Hercules don't have to kick it up a notch aginst him. I think SMvFL cannot be perfectly tucked away by ideas like this, but it goes a lot further to explain things. In my comics experience, PIS and CIS is rarely foolish stupidity on anybody's part. You just have to think about it and things start to make sense.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Characters don't have to be dumbed down in order for the story to hold weight. There are perfectly valid reasons why Flash could get tagged or why Thor would strain in strength.I'd imagine that in the same way Superman writers have written how much he holds back, many super-powered characters do as well. Consider Flash. How could he ever get tagged by Cold's ice-gun? Well, there was something interesting in 'Rogue War' if you read it. Flash was in the waiting room of a hospital awaiting a pregnancy test result. When he is alone and brooding, the seconds feel like an eternity to him. He thinks about how in that state he cannot relate to anybody. He actually reads medical encyclopedias during the several minutes he waits. He gets jogged out of this state by his wife.
Now think about that. Flash, using the Speedforce all the time to accelerate his perception would basically have to live his life out like that where seconds feel like hours. Can you imagine going into a fight, tapping the Speed Force fully in that manner and having to spend a literal eternity waiting for someone to throw a punch so you can dodge it? I would think that Flash consciously chooses to stay in real-time or an accelerated version of it while vastly accelerating his motor skills. That's why he could run into Deathstroke's sword before realizing it. He's sped up his motor skills but not his perception. Do any of you doubt that he could have that kind of control?
Is it always smart in a fight? No. Is it recommended? No. But dammit. If the man is going to keep sane, he's got to do that. Think about also when he's fighting alongside other people. Consider how important communication is during team fights. If he accelerates his perception to such a degree that seconds feel like minutes or hours or days, he could never communicate with his teammates. So other than sanity, you have communication to think about. This explains every single time why Flash gets nicked by a boomerang, or grazed with a bullet or smacked in the face with a punch or quite famously stabbed in the shoulder by a sword.
The same can go for all potential, but not confirmed (WW, Thor, Surfer) and obvious super speedsters (Supes, Flash). In the beginning of 'House of M,' Quicksilver screams at Magneto but he's so distraught and caught up in what he is saying, he doesn't realize he's speaking at superspeed and Magneto can't understand. He then consciously slows himself down to communicate with Magneto. Same concept. Yes, your natural state can be superspeed, but if you want to interact with others, you have to bring yourself down to their level.
Superman controls himself in a similar manner. He consciously limits himself. He doesn't walk around with full strength and then tries to touch things with a mere fraction of his strength. He appears to have great control in how much strength he has available at any time. Indeed, he was able to will himself to a depowered state and back again during "52" and "One Year Later." Like the other guy said, it'd be crazy trying to walk around using only a millionth of your strength. He limits his power very precisely. Which can explain why he can get punched in the face by an admittedly non super-speedster and knocked back in one instance and then later on speedblitz him. Think of your typical Mongul fight.
Now take those ideas and project them onto a being like Thor. Because Thor is a whole lot different. He is a god. An immortal. The significance I take from his immortality is that he has lived thousands of years. I would imagine that 10 years is really only a mere week for a being such as him. You read comparisons like this all the time in comics, where immortal beings exhort their mortal counterparts about how their lifetimes are a mere speck compared to their own. It's like comparing our own life to a mayfly's life that lasts days.
So what's my point? My point is this: In order for Thor to live among us and interact with mortals, he has to adjust his consciousness and power to a certain level. While I'm not trying to draw religious parallels, it's like God in the form of Jesus Christ. God could spend an eternity in a single instant or consider an eternity to be a single instant to Him. But as Jesus Christ, He brought Himself down to a mortal's existence and state of being to interact with us on a personal level.
So what does this mean? This is the logical reason to reconcile all the feats Thor has had and all the intuitions that fans have of him. He is capable of super-speed and super-strength. Intuition tells us so since he has thrown down with Surfer and Gladiator. Think about it some more. Thor could think and react in super-speeds. Thor could obliterate the planet with one powerful Mjolnir strike. But to do so would be to force himself out of a state that he has consciously attuned himself to in this mortal world. If you want to have a conversation with Captain America, you have to think, act and communicate on a mortal level. If you're in your full-powered form all the time with all the benefits of an immortal mind, how could you carry on a conversation with Cap? This is exactly why cosmic beings employ M-bodys or manifestations to communicate to mortals or interact with them.
This idea can explain the infamous Mongoose incident and help reconcile it with how Thor could instinctively raise Mjolnir to deflect a bolt of Phoenix's telepathic energy. In the former, he's been walking around trying to relate to us mortals and consciously attuned himself to our conception of time, our perceptions of speed, etc. He gets bushwhacked by Mongoose. It takes him a conscious effort to reassert himself and say, "Screw this. I'm taking your ass down. You think you know fast?" In the latter incident, Phoenix Rachel Grey shoots a bolt of telepathic energy at him and Thor raises Mjolnir and deflects it. Such an attack is about as instantaneous as you can get. Such an accomplishment requires ftl speeds on Thor's part just to move his arms. But if you read the captions, Thor does not consciously assess the threat in superspeed accelerated thought. His battle instincts, in direct proportion to the size and speed of the threat immediately allow him to access superspeed to raise his hands from his waist to in front of his face to deflect the telepathic bolt. His instincts allowed him to skip the part where he had to consciously reassert his immortal nature and the power and speed he was privy to.
This can explain why both events, which appear to be so widely disparate, could feasibly happen to the same character. Indeed, both of those events happened during the same writer's run on Thor, if I'm not mistaken. Thor, even more than Superman, has to attune his immortal mind and spirit to be able to interact coherently with a mortal world. Indeed, that is exactly why Odin sent him to Earth and gave him his Donald Blake persona, to live like a mortal and understand mortality. It was Thor's purpose on Marvel Earth. And this can also explain why he so often relies on pouring his power into Mjolnir rather than extending it directly from himself. Mjolnir acts as a buffer and conduit for his immortal forces, which if fully utilized just through himself could have grave consequences. Thus this also explains why he used Mjolnir to eventually stop Mongoose rather than just accelerating himself to superspeeds.
And now to finally address masterbruce's comment, the same thing applies to super strength. Limiting yourself to 100 ton strength helps you cope with having to live in this fragile world and most of the time it is enough to deal with the superpowered threats you face, like Namor. If 100 ton strength is good enough and usually gets the job done in most situations, why bother undoing the limits you've set upon yourself? Then again, every once in a while, you have to tow the Earth or grapple the Midgard Serpent and you're forced to kick it up a notch. No disrespect to Namor, but beings like Juggernaut and Hercules don't have to kick it up a notch aginst him. I think SMvFL cannot be perfectly tucked away by ideas like this, but it goes a lot further to explain things. In my comics experience, PIS and CIS is rarely foolish stupidity on anybody's part. You just have to think about it and things start to make sense.
Beautiful post and it makes a lot of sense. Wrote it good and everything that you said seems to fall in place. Someone need to make a thread just for this post so that if we have a argument about anything that has something to do with power etc.... we can fall back on this.
Again, nice post
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You obviously have never been hit in the face with a hammer. Either way, both do a crapload of damage. As regards to you still attempting to prove that the magic weakness was not ignored you point to the possibility that, it did effect him, but he just healed up dandy like he always does. Except, no significantly initial damage was done to him when he was first struck. Little bit of blood. That happens when Martian Manhunter hits him in the face. Therefore, you cannot say that the weakness to magic is accounted for. The crucial missing element is the presence of the initial damage. We both agree he could heal from it, but what is peculiarly missing inthe JLA/Avengers depiction is that the magic weakness affected any kind of enhanced damage at all.
I never stated that a Mjolnir shot would one-shot him. I explicitly stated it probably wouldn't. A lot of what people are saying is right, EVEN WITH a weakness to magic, his pure willpower allows him to be able to keep fighting. I don't think anybody has argued that Mjolnir blow would one-shot ole Supes. Just think of how Iron Man clearly has the strength to knock out Caps, but Cap still stands. I credit Superman with having superhuman will as well, maybe not on Cap's level but clearly extraordinary will.Also, if Superman knew that Mjolnir was magical itself, he wouldn't be so stupid as to soak up the blow completely. He would do his best to roll with the blow to avoid full impact. But if he didn't know it was magic backed, his face'd be f'ed up because he'd be thinking, "Oh look at me. I'm invulnerable because I have a bio-field aura and this hit won't do a darn thing, so I won't bother rolling with the blow. Oh... here it comes, stupid looking hamme-ZONK!" You seem to admit, if Thor cheapshotted Superman in the back of the skull, Superman would get knocked the f out. So we agree to that point.
Moving onto magic-backed hits... I never said Thor's fists would do the same. Yes, Thor's a god and he's got magic in him and he can expel magical energies, but he is not a being made of magic. His flesh and sinew are not made of magic. I would argue the same thing about Wonderwoman. Yeah, her garments are magic, but her flesh isn't magic. I would argue the same about Etrigan. He's not pure magic. He's a demon who wields magic. I don't know enough about the other guy in your scan to make a similar assumption. But that is how I reconcile what happens when Superman fights magic users. As such, a magic wielder or magician like Dr. Strange can't just walk over to Superman and kick him in the nuts and make Superman crumple over (as much as we all love Dr. Strange). Spectre on the other hand... I can see him being entirely made of magic and yes, even without being Presence- backed I can see him walking over to Superman and blueballing poor Supes.
Please note in IC #1 that Superman's hands are bleeding. Yes, a normal person can catch a sword in their bare hands with a double clasp because they avoid the edges of the blade. Apparently, Superman couldn't even achieve this fully, he still got cut. But it is inappropriate to directly compare this with stopping Mjolnir in his bare hand. For one, his bare hand doesn't avoid Mjolnir's bulk or weight. He doesn't catch Mjolnir's handle. He stops the bulk of Mjolnir itself. Just imagine you have a 25 lbs dumbbell. Imagine, one end of the dumbbell has fallen off. You now have an approximately 13 lbs Mjolnir lookalike. Now go ahead and swing that down on your hand fiercely and stop its momentum completely. Your hand by the way cannot budge from its position. That would simulate what would really happen in JLA/Avengers. If you were somehow able to accomplish such a feat, your hand's bones will be shattered. That is why, that part of JLA/Avengers pissed me off also. But apparently, nearly everybody accepts that JLA/Avengers was garbage and PIS. So I'll drop it.
I have thought about this as well. I am convinced that if I myself, took a magic hammer and swung it in Superman's face, he'd be hurt. So why not a being with superhuman strength literally decapitating Superman since physical strength ought not to be ignored? Many would argue that this inconsistency clearly indicates that Superman's bio-aura isn't completely eroded by magical objects. Unfortunately, you'd be wrong. It is that aspect of Superman's powers that appears facially inconsistent. You have to understand, this happens with Kryptonite as well. Batman punches him with Kryptonite ring and Superman gets bruised up. Now what were to happen if Batman were superstrong? Wouldn't Superman's face be caved in? Unfortunately, we've seen this isn't so. Take someone like Superboy Prime smashing a kryptonite rock over Supes' face in IC #7, and all he gets is a bloody face. WTH.I have my theories on this, but I need to see more of Superman and his tussles with magic to make a detailed explanation. Suffice it to say, that just like Kryptonite, if a normal human hit him in the face with a magic ring, he'd get bruised up. And if a superstrong human hit him in the face with a magic ring, he'd still only get bruised up. Inconsistent? Yes. But does it clearly happen? Yes. Still, I'm sure it is somehow reconcilable, we just need more analysis. Therefore, with this long post, I've given my position on how Superman's weakness to magic works. It is not an off-switch, no. But the potential for great damage is there. And just as Lex Luthor stated magic alone would not beat Superman, I'm willing to bet Lex Luthor would agree that magic + super-strength + godlike energies + immortal experience + significant warrior prowess would be quite challenging. And that still isn't Thor in a nutshell.
For all those people who deny that Thor could overpower Superman, or deal with his superspeed, then read this respect thread and take a gander at the scans: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/369118_8-respek-the-mighty-thor There are only fourteen pages. But having read it just now, I am in awe of what he has done under his own power. Particularly page 8 at the bottom. Just read the fight he has with both Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock before he gets the Power Gem. This fight left my jaw dropped for three reasons: 1) Silver Surfer took off the gloves and was going all-out with his Power Cosmic if you read the prior 1v1 fight; 2) Thor withstands Adam Warlock's Soul Gem karmic blast; 3) finally we see evidence (Adam Warlock's own observations) not only of Thor's super-speed but his being able to fight at super-speed with super-beings (other than weak examples like being able to see and block bullets in mid-air). I was going to give Thor the very slight majority here... but after seeing what he does to Silver Surfer AND Adam Warlock. I dunno, I'll need to step back for a while to get rid of the pure awesome of that fight to give an unbiased view. Like the thread states: Respeck the Mighty Thor!
Hail onedumbgo