Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah. I hate that backward approach to durability, which is probably a means to distance characters from having Superman-esque invincibility (ie. being bulletproof). People like Arthur and Diana can survive blows from class 100+ beings without batting an eye usually. And yet a bullet can pierce their skin or possibly be implied to be fatal to them.
Yup. it's retarded.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's stupid for Diana/Aquaman but it's just retarded for Thor. At least there's a very noticeable gap with those two and someone like Clark even in other areas.
So let me get this straight, when superman falls to a vampire even though previously Dracula himself combusted upon biting him and logic supporting that, it's a clear indication that superman is weak to magic (you don't use this but I've seen people use this) but when thor got ko'd by a bullet (classic thor got ko'd by a hunter's tranquilizer dart before the first destroyer fight) it's retarded? What kind of logic is that, you either accept both or refuse both. Superman has fought very high level magic before (Blaze, satannus, adversary, silver banshee, Arion etc) and won but I won't say he's not vulnerable to magic. It's the same way people refuse to acknowledge Kal's HUGE speed advantage by saying "Thor's been there, done that", Kal has also fought magical opponents and defeated them. It's just people saying"uhuh, speed don't matter but superman's magic weakness would matter". When it's kal's magic vulnerability, it's upon writer to mandate it and whoever didn't write him as a kitten against magic is biased for him despite the fact that he's always written that way (otherwise captain marvel's lightning charged fist would have left him a smear on floor or diana's tiara that can cut throgh diamond thrown with her strength would have decapitated him) but when it comes to thor's durability it's retarded to be ko'd by a bullet despite the fact that he was always written that way?
What's wrong with superman stopping mjlonir? Nefaria did it and I don't see any thor fans crying foul at it, it bounced off magneto's shield but Superman stopped it "uhuh, it's magic. Superman should have his fingers crushed by it". Last I checked magic doesn't reduce superman's strength.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So let me get this straight, when superman falls to a vampire even though previously Dracula himself combusted upon biting him and logic supporting that, it's a clear indication that superman is weak to magic (you don't use this but I've seen people use this) but when thor got ko'd by a bullet (classic thor got ko'd by a hunter's tranquilizer dart before the first destroyer fight) it's retarded? What kind of logic is that, you either accept both or refuse both. Superman has fought very high level magic before (Blaze, satannus, adversary, silver banshee, Arion etc) and won but I won't say he's not vulnerable to magic. It's the same way people refuse to acknowledge Kal's HUGE speed advantage by saying "Thor's been there, done that", Kal has also fought magical opponents and defeated them. It's just people saying"uhuh, speed don't matter but superman's magic weakness would matter". When it's kal's magic vulnerability, it's upon writer to mandate it and whoever didn't write him as a kitten against magic is biased for him despite the fact that he's always written that way (otherwise captain marvel's lightning charged fist would have left him a smear on floor or diana's tiara that can cut throgh diamond thrown with her strength would have decapitated him) but when it comes to thor's durability it's retarded to be ko'd by a bullet despite the fact that he was always written that way?What's wrong with superman stopping mjlonir? Nefaria did it and I don't see any thor fans crying foul at it, it bounced off magneto's shield but Superman stopped it "uhuh, it's magic. Superman should have his fingers crushed by it". Last I checked magic doesn't reduce superman's strength.
No; using the vampire feat is plain stupid.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So let me get this straight, when superman falls to a vampire even though previously Dracula himself combusted upon biting him and logic supporting that, it's a clear indication that superman is weak to magic (you don't use this but I've seen people use this) but when thor got ko'd by a bullet (classic thor got ko'd by a hunter's tranquilizer dart before the first destroyer fight) it's retarded? What kind of logic is that, you either accept both or refuse both. Superman has fought very high level magic before (Blaze, satannus, adversary, silver banshee, Arion etc) and won but I won't say he's not vulnerable to magic. It's the same way people refuse to acknowledge Kal's HUGE speed advantage by saying "Thor's been there, done that", Kal has also fought magical opponents and defeated them. It's just people saying"uhuh, speed don't matter but superman's magic weakness would matter". When it's kal's magic vulnerability, it's upon writer to mandate it and whoever didn't write him as a kitten against magic is biased for him despite the fact that he's always written that way (otherwise captain marvel's lightning charged fist would have left him a smear on floor or diana's tiara that can cut throgh diamond thrown with her strength would have decapitated him) but when it comes to thor's durability it's retarded to be ko'd by a bullet despite the fact that he was always written that way?What's wrong with superman stopping mjlonir? Nefaria did it and I don't see any thor fans crying foul at it, it bounced off magneto's shield but Superman stopped it "uhuh, it's magic. Superman should have his fingers crushed by it". Last I checked magic doesn't reduce superman's strength.
You need to step back and get out of your Superman jammies. I never denied that Superman doesn't have good showings against mystical enemies (I said the exact opposite in fact), but at the same time, he has plenty of less than stellar scenes. For this specific trait, I treat it by a case by case basis, because it depends solely on the writer.
No one is denying that Superman has a speed advantage. It's just a matter of recognizing how they fight on average. No one is even denying that Superman can win. At least I'm not.
I'm not sure why you're comparing Superman's mystical vulnerability to Thor's backwards durability. Thor's durability is retarded, if you feel the same way about Clark and magic, that's fine, I don't give a shit. If you want to know my feelings on the matter, then I believe Clark's vulnerability makes more sense (As much as it can) than Thor's weakness to low end caliber weapons. I'm not denying evidence for Thor under the pretense that it's retarded, I acknowledged it. There's no contradiction on my part.
For the record, I'm pretty sure that Superman falling to vampires happened before the scene with Dracula. Like it or not, Superman has been fairly vulnerable to mystical forces, neither is particularly silly. As a matter of fact, the vulnerability came first. Heck, I'm pretty sure the reason Dracula was able to control and pierce Superman's skin in the first place was due to a mystical vulnerability.
I dislike the scene, but Busiek has an extreme take on Superman's mystical vulnerability. On the other end of the scale, a writer would have had Superman's hand crushed etc. It's just a matter of recognizing both stances that's important to me.
All in all, this was a pretty pointless post. Did you want me to reassure you about Superman's capabilities or something? I'm not here to listen to your complaints, PM Pr if you're feeling like a Superfag in a Thorbag world.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You need to step back and get out of your Superman jammies. I never denied that Superman doesn't have good showings against mystical enemies (I said the exact opposite in fact), but at the same time, he has plenty of less than stellar scenes. For this specific trait, I treat it by a case by case basis, because it depends solely on the writer.
LOL, so now it's case by case basis when it comes to superman but when it's thor you're claiming it's retarded, can you tell me about these less than stellar scenes. For every weak showing there's a strong showing. But for you it's only weak ones that matter, don't it? You yourself posted BOTH JMS and Busiek said that he was weak to bullets, so why not get to the cases of thor's "retarded" weakness to bullets when it's not even exclusive to him? Can you tell me about any other character in comics who is "outright" weak to magic? Everyone has a problem with magic but only superman is weak to it? It does not make any more sense than thor's "retarded" bullet weakness. Btw, I'm perfectly fine in my superman jammies, how's thor nowdays? Don't tell me he's dead once again.....oh wait.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus No one is denying that Superman has a speed advantage. It's just a matter of recognizing how they fight on average. No one is even denying that Superman can win. At least I'm not.
Never said you denied that superman can win? I am just calling on the hypocrisy.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus I'm not sure why you're comparing Superman's mystical vulnerability to Thor's backwards durability. Thor's durability is retarded, if you feel the same way about Clark and magic, that's fine, I don't give a shit. If you want to know my feelings on the matter, then I believe Clark's vulnerability makes more sense (As much as it can) than Thor's weakness to low end caliber weapons. I'm not denying evidence for Thor under the pretense that it's retarded, I acknowledged it. There's no contradiction on my part.
Who said I give a shit about what you think about Kal and his magic weakness? I am just laughing at the fact that in the same sentence you are calling thor's backward durability "more retarded" when it's not even exclusive to him but you are calling Kal's magic weakness makes sense when no other character is "outright" weak to magic.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus For the record, I'm pretty sure that Superman falling to vampires happened before the scene with Dracula. Like it or not, Superman has been fairly vulnerable to mystical forces, neither is particularly silly. As a matter of fact, the vulnerability came first. Heck, I'm pretty sure the reason Dracula was able to control and pierce Superman's skin in the first place was due to a mystical vulnerability.
No it happened in JLA Tenth circle which came in 2004 while dracula scene happened in Superman v2 180 IIRC which came in 2002. So did Thor's weakness to bullets, so I guess superman can ko thor using his finger at high speed. If a magical teeth can pierce superman then Captain marvel's fist should splatter superman, right?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus I dislike the scene, but Busiek has an extreme take on Superman's mystical vulnerability. On the other end of the scale, a writer would have had Superman's hand crushed etc. It's just a matter of recognizing both stances that's important to me.
Who would write superman's fingers crushed other than Byrne?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus All in all, this was a pretty pointless post. Did you want me to reassure you about Superman's capabilities or something? I'm not here to listen to your complaints, PM Pr if you're feeling like a Superfag in a Thorbag world.
So was your post complaining about thor's backward durability. It exists whether you like or not just like Kal's magic vulnerability but you won't find me calling it's retarded.I don't have to get assurance from anyone about Kal's capabilities. Entire world know about that and even you have admitted several times that Superman holds an edge against Thor. You realize that you're currently in a thread where currently superman has a lead over Thor, right? I don't like calling fans **** or anything like that, I know how to respect other people's views.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So let me get this straight, when superman falls to a vampire even though previously Dracula himself combusted upon biting him and logic supporting that, it's a clear indication that superman is weak to magic (you don't use this but I've seen people use this) but when thor got ko'd by a bullet (classic thor got ko'd by a hunter's tranquilizer dart before the first destroyer fight) it's retarded? What kind of logic is that, you either accept both or refuse both. Superman has fought very high level magic before (Blaze, satannus, adversary, silver banshee, Arion etc) and won but I won't say he's not vulnerable to magic. It's the same way people refuse to acknowledge Kal's HUGE speed advantage by saying "Thor's been there, done that", Kal has also fought magical opponents and defeated them. It's just people saying"uhuh, speed don't matter but superman's magic weakness would matter". When it's kal's magic vulnerability, it's upon writer to mandate it and whoever didn't write him as a kitten against magic is biased for him despite the fact that he's always written that way (otherwise captain marvel's lightning charged fist would have left him a smear on floor or diana's tiara that can cut throgh diamond thrown with her strength would have decapitated him) but when it comes to thor's durability it's retarded to be ko'd by a bullet despite the fact that he was always written that way?What's wrong with superman stopping mjlonir? Nefaria did it and I don't see any thor fans crying foul at it, it bounced off magneto's shield but Superman stopped it "uhuh, it's magic. Superman should have his fingers crushed by it". Last I checked magic doesn't reduce superman's strength.
You aren't understanding what's being discussed here. At all.
Originally posted by abhilegend
despite the fact that he's always written that way (otherwise captain marvel's lightning charged fist would have left him a smear on floor or diana's tiara that can cut throgh diamond thrown with her strength would have decapitated him)
Yeah but I dnt remember Supes simply deflecting Marvel's Lightning with his hand, with nothing more than a little grunt. In fact it hurt him quite a lot. Just like Wonder Woman's magical weapons always have backed by her strength (which is not greater than Thor's strength)..
Originally posted by abhilegend
What's wrong with superman stopping mjlonir? Nefaria did it and I don't see any thor fans crying foul at it, it bounced off magneto's shield but Superman stopped it "uhuh, it's magic.
When Thor goes all out he's always been able to overpower Magneto's shileds.
The whole scene was wrong! He would never just tank Supes heat vision. He didnt against Gladiator. Why would he against Supes??
And Supes isnt THAT much stronger than Thor to do that. Add in Any Vulnerability to magic at all, and yeah theres no way he should be able to do that- Unless of course Thor was really THAT weakened from the HV, which as Iv said shouldn't have happened anyway.
Supes vs Thor would be an awsome battle. But the way it was done in that comic was pure PIS in favour of Supes, and not nearly the awsome battle we should have got between the 2 titans.
Originally posted by Silent Master
John Byrne, he said as much on his forum just after the JLA/Avengers fight came out.
If that's because of the magic weakness, it's kind of funny, because Byrnes the one that had Silver Banshee with her magical killer scream only put Supes in a coma.
Meaning in JB's estimation, his durability gave him some amount of resistance to that magically lethal attack..
Originally posted by cdtm
If that's because of the magic weakness, it's kind of funny, because Byrnes the one that had Silver Banshee with her magical killer scream only put Supes in a coma.Meaning in JB's estimation, his durability gave him some amount of resistance to that magically lethal attack..
IIRC, he did list Superman's magic weakness as being the reason.
Originally posted by abhilegend
LOL, so now it's case by case basis when it comes to superman but when it's thor you're claiming it's retarded, can you tell me about these less than stellar scenes. For every weak showing there's a strong showing.
It’s always been a case by case when it comes to Superman but that doesn’t in anyway contradict or put him at a disadvantage when in comparison to Thor. Yes, I think it’s retarded, but I’m not going to use that as an argument to dismiss evidence, then you’d have grounds for all this bitching.
Thor was specifically vulnerable to lower end artillery but it disappeared over time. Clark’s vulnerability to magic was a legitimate weakness that circumvented his durability but it lessened over the years to the point where a Morrison type portrayal is probably the fairest.
I thought you were a Superman fan? Clark has various weak showings against magic.
Originally posted by abhilegend
But for you it's only weak ones that matter, don't it?
Quote me where I said anything of the sort or stop putting words in my mouth. Never did I once treat Superman unjustly when it comes to magic, whenever it appears that someone is overestimating or underestimating his vulnerability, I correct them. There are extremes portrayals (Busiek and Bryne) or a middle ground (Morrison) but it all depends on the writer at this point. It’s the only fair stance. As a matter of fact, I’ve gone out of my way to clarify that I don’t take the mystical vulnerability into account during their battles and that it probably wouldn’t be in a comic. But that’s irrelevant, I don’t have to explain myself to you, clearly you have no idea what my stance is.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You yourself posted BOTH JMS and Busiek said that he was weak to bullets, so why not get to the cases of thor's "retarded" weakness to bullets when it's not even exclusive to him? Can you tell me about any other character in comics who is "outright" weak to magic? Everyone has a problem with magic but only superman is weak to it? It does not make any more sense than thor's "retarded" bullet weakness. Btw, I'm perfectly fine in my superman jammies, how's thor nowdays? Don't tell me he's dead once again.....oh wait.
I'm sorry, but you need to clear that sentence up because I'm unsure as to what you mean.
Magic has been shown to be a foil against plenty of characters, but that’s immaterial. I think Superman’s weakness to magic makes more sense than Thor’s weakness to lower caliber weapons. Maybe it’s because I grew up in a time period where the Odinson was already bulletproof while Clark was still vulnerable to magic, maybe it’s because I’m a Thor bag, I could come up with a logical enough argument but it really doesn’t matter in the end does it? You’re unhappy with my stance and that’s the root of the problem. Unfortunately, no matter how much you complain, it’s not going to change. It’s my opinion, one that so far hasn’t colored my view when it comes to Clark and magic. As long as that doesn't happen, you can bugger off.
Bullets bounce off of Thor now, Superman just got raped by rotting teeth so I’m good. I’m sorry that this has upset you so. 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said I give a shit about what you think about Kal and his magic weakness? I am just laughing at the fact that in the same sentence you are calling thor's backward durability "more retarded" when it's not even exclusive to him but you are calling Kal's magic weakness makes sense when no other character is "outright" weak to magic.
I understand your complaint but this was unnecessary and essentially just a waste of time.
Originally posted by abhilegend
No it happened in JLA Tenth circle which came in 2004 while dracula scene happened in Superman v2 180 IIRC which came in 2002. So did Thor's weakness to bullets, so I guess superman can ko thor using his finger at high speed. If a magical teeth can pierce superman then Captain marvel's fist should splatter superman, right?
There are two scenes earlier than 2002. In Action Comics Annual #1 from 1987, Superman was helpless against a Vampire who was moments away from biting him (Batman saved him), it took a large chunk out of him with it's claws. In Superman #70 from 1993, he was once again helpless against a Vampire, and was almost bitten. There was another scene in the JLA where Superman had to stay out of a battle with mystical bats (Not real vampires but worth mentioning I guess) because he was no more resistant to magic than humans, it happened in like 2001 I'd guess. Like I said earlier, there are various scenes indicating a specific vulnerability to magic (The further back you go, the more common they are than vise versa), but
Why do you keep trying to entrap be in a contradiction and a statement that lowballs Superman? Do you want me to underestimate him? Will that justify this stupid little fit you’re throwing?
It’s not even a smart attempt at baiting. No, Superman won’t be able to knock out Thor with his finger at super speed, and Captain Marvel wouldn’t be able to splatter Clark.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Who would write superman's fingers crushed other than Byrne?
He isn’t enough? He represents an extreme as does Busiek. I know other writers would give Thor the win over Clark for the mystical vulnerability alone such as Simonson or Jurgens. I don’t know about his hand being crushed but he isn’t going to be successful in the venture.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So was your post complaining about thor's backward durability. It exists whether you like or not just like Kal's magic vulnerability but you won't find me calling it's retarded.I don't have to get assurance from anyone about Kal's capabilities. Entire world know about that and even you have admitted several times that Superman holds an edge against Thor. You realize that you're currently in a thread where currently superman has a lead over Thor, right? I don't like calling fans **** or anything like that, I know how to respect other people's views.
I don’t understand why that statement has so profoundly affected you. I wasn’t giving Thor more privileges than Clark. Call it whatever the f*ck you want, I don’t give a shit unless you start using fallacious and/or double standard reasoning. Clearly that isn't sufficient based on all the bitching that you do about how unfair everything is to him, you complain more than a woman. They have respective advantages, neither is clearly superior in one category besides Clark with speed and Thor with raw power output.
Sorry, but you are a **** and I’m done hearing you PMS.