RotS Mace Windu VS RotS Count Dooku

Form II: Known as Makashi, this ancient Jedi Knight lightsaber combat technique was developed when pikes and staves were more common in the galaxy. Form II emphasized fluid motion and anticipation of a weapon being swung at its target, allowing the Jedi to attack and defend with minimal effort. Although many Jedi historians considered Form II to be the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, it was dropped in favor of Form III combat when blaster weapons became more prevalent in the galaxy.

Form II, also called Makashi, represents the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. It evolved during an era when battles between Jedi and Dark Jedi had become expected, if not routine, and may have produced the greatest dueling masters the galaxy had ever seen. Masters of Form II developed unique offenses and defenses, and trained studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged.

Form II, Makashi: Form II represents the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Masters of Form II develope unique offenses and defenses, and train studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged.

What we see here is that Makashi is generally accepted to be the ultimate form to use in lightsaber combat; the most refined, efficient, and perhaps practical discipline when dueling against an opponent. On the other hand, Juyo/Vaapad is constantly referred to as the most demanding of all forms and that "only high level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline." Mace is a master of Juyo and the creator of Vaapad; two disciplines that Count Dooku is not known to possess.

What that means, quite simply, is that while Makashi may be the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, it is not the end all be all in terms of combat in general; even amongst Jedi and Sith. There's more to a duel than the swinging of glowing sticks; that Vaapad requires its masters to be high level masters of multiple forms means, quite simply, that it is far more technically demanding and accomplished than Makashi alone.

You guys still arguing about a battle where the winner is obvious?

Don't need to elaborate too much here, so to keep it short and sweet; Mace Windu puts an end to Count Dooku. It’s foolishness for some to say that Vaapad has little relevance here. Vaapad is always relevant.

I could understand Vapaad working against someone like Vader. He's guilt ridden and emotionally unstable ( like some posters here... ).

It would prolly work against an evil SOB like Palpatine. There's gotta be some skeletons in his closet..

Dooku in his mind wasn't a bad guy. He saw his methods as a means to an end and didn't draw so much on rage, anger, hate, etc. Dooku was always calm and collected, never showing a lack of self control.

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
I could understand Vapaad working against someone like Vader. He's guilt ridden and emotionally unstable ( like some posters here... ).

It would prolly work against an evil SOB like Palpatine. There's gotta be some skeletons in his closet..

Dooku in his mind wasn't a bad guy. He saw his methods as a means to an end and didn't draw so much on rage, anger, hate, etc. Dooku was always calm and collected, never showing a lack of self control.

That doesn't work, though. Palpatine himself believed that he was doing the right thing; the fact that Dooku didn't consider himself evil doesn't mean that Vaapad wouldn't work on him and I would contend that Palpatine's self control was far greater than Dooku's, but that didn't save him.

Originally posted by Gideon
That doesn't work, though. Palpatine himself believed that he was doing the right thing; the fact that Dooku didn't consider himself evil doesn't mean that Vaapad wouldn't work on him and I would contend that Palpatine's self control was far greater than Dooku's, but that didn't save him.

Palpatine believed he was doing the right thing??

He was the personification of EVIL. Evil has no conscience. How can the equivalent of the devil have any morality? After all the hard work he went through to get his ultimate tool ( Vader ), Vader went and got dismembered. He considered leaving him for dead on Mustafar..

Dooku was a proud man. That was his downfall but he was also as disillusioned as any other fallen Jedi much like Vader.

Sidious wasn't an anti hero. He was a villian through and through.

Well, there you are. He manages to manipulate "hundreds of tons of dirt and rock" and then move a steamcrawler (which, according to Wookieepedia, is equipped with turrets and large headlamps and was the basis for the Ground Assault Vehicle; all of this is to say that it is, presumably, a large object), though not at the same time.

Manipulates is a strong word - he essentially shoved the already collapsing foundation and then when the "hundreds of tons of dirt and rock" met up with lava (Which noticably slowed its momentum), he rode the earth 'crest' of the wave down until it reached the steamcrawler. He then stabilzed the rubble which had already lurched to a halt.

This passage has been regurgitated in these forums but not properly analyzed. Even I had to reread it many times and clarify with another to really 'get' the meaning behind the passage. Let's take a closer look:

A new tremor from the eruption shook the dirt cliff under his feet. He felt it sag: undercut by the river of lava, the shaking was rapidly destroying the cliff's structural integrity. Any second now it would collapse, sending Mace down into the river, unless he did something first.

The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten beters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, Why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed.

^ This illustrates how Mace must do something or be thrown into the river. His initial intention is not stopping the landslide, but not dying in it. He decides to push the foundation of the cliff so that he can instigate the inevitable, and thus be prepared for it. His first motion is to push an already collapsing foundation. I'd imagine even Anakin or Obi-wan could muster this.

With a subeterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the growing river of lava, organics bursting into flames that the growing landslide instantly smothered as it built itself into a huge wedge shaped berm of raw dirt across the gully; as lava slowly bulged and climbed the upstream face, the down-stream side of the cliff continued to collapse, piling over cooler lava that hardened beneath it, pushing the hotter, more liquid lava into a wave that washed around the steamcrawler's side, welled to the lip of the precipice, then plunged in a rain of fire upon the black jungle far below].

^ The first part underlined for emphasis, but I'll break this down piece by piece.

Organic material present is burnt to a crisp; the dirt itself by sheer mass begins to span the gulley of lava.

"it built itself into a huge wedge shaped berm of raw dirt across the gully"

... So basically the wave of dirt Mace forced into motion is losing some momentum and material into a gully filled with lava.

The latter part indicates that the collapsing cliff further filled the gully and buried some of the lava, while it pushed the hotter lava stream ahead of it as it solidified. The lava is explicitly shown streaming past the steamcrawler and moving onwards.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children- and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landlide's roll, came Mace Windu.

^ So here we see that after the initial batch of dirt and rock sinks into the lava-filled gully and part of it not impacted by this carries on in a landslide. The landslide then streams towards the steamcrawler, with Mace struggling to not get buried.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble WHILE he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

^ Here's the important part - the wave comes to a stop at the steamcrawler's cabin, and only at this point is Mace's Force powers explicitly shown to be in effect. After the stop of the wave which he realized he could not control (Hence why he instigated it rather than held it in place at the top of the cliff), he then stablizes the rubble. This is a far cry from he "controlled tons of rock and dirt with the Force LOL'.

So basically Mace's great claim to TK fame is holding dirt together once it's already stopped. Mace Windu does not stop the wave, thus he is not exerting TK force enough to control that amount of weight. Once the the momentum is spent, he can then exert barely enough control to keep it from collapsing back into the lava. Gravity itself is holding the majority of the weight down while he stabilizes the top.

So again, why are we appauding this TK as 'far superior'?

---

What we see here is that Makashi is generally accepted to be the ultimate form to use in lightsaber combat; the most refined, efficient, and perhaps practical discipline when dueling against an opponent. On the other hand, Juyo/Vaapad is constantly referred to as the most demanding of all forms and that "only high level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline." Mace is a master of Juyo and the creator of Vaapad; two disciplines that Count Dooku is not known to possess.

Vaapad is considered the most demanding because of its skirting the Dark Side with its usage. It requires extreme mental discipline to not 'give in' to the rush of battle, as demonstrated in Shatterpoint. However, this doesn't immediately make it better than a fighting style deliberately made to overcome other Jedi. Keep in mind that while Mace Windu was developing and finishing his style, the Sith hadn't been seen in over a thousand years. He is shown to be incredibly instinctual in combat and great at improvising in unusual situations, as demonstrated in Shatterpoint, but even when he had more or less perfected his fighting style, Dooku still beat him.

Additionally, none of the other forms comes close to Makashi for sheer technical ability. It is the penultimate lightsaber form, and pretending that a varied proficiency of styles deliberately made for other uses (blocking or reflecting blaster bolts, channeling your emotions, fueling your abilities with the Force, etc.) is somehow superior is missing the point, or confusing "quantity over quality". Dooku does not "possess" Vaapad because it is a specific school of Juyo taught only by Mace. This doesn't mean he's incapable of defeating it, as he has already done so once before (According to the New Essential Guide to Characters, if I'm not mistaken). Mace's lack of knowledge in Makashi, however, could be a problem. Since Dooku's style is specifically made to defeat other lightsaber opponents, he specializes in the very thing they're both being judged on here. Mace's style is all about him expressing himself and learning to be adaptive. And it's a wonderful style. It's not the best style for all lightsaber fights, though. And it does not elevate his skill above a renowned master who has... wait, did I mention this already? Defeated him before.

Even Dark Rendezvouz implies that Mace being on neutral ground with him is a possible match for Dooku, not that the Jedi Master is clearly equal to or better than Dooku in combat.

What that means, quite simply, is that while Makashi may be the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, it is not the end all be all in terms of combat in general; even amongst Jedi and Sith. There's more to a duel than the swinging of glowing sticks; that Vaapad requires its masters to be high level masters of multiple forms means, quite simply, that it is far more technically demanding and accomplished than Makashi alone.

Way to miss the point.

Lightsaber-to-lightsaber fighting is the deciding factor between combatants who may be similar in Force powers as each other. So for example, Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi could not overcome each other using the Force. So they had to use the lightsaber. Same with Yoda and Dooku, if you remember correctly. Even if you assert that Mace and Dooku's TK is too close to call, you must turn to the lightsaber fighting as the deciding factor (Which it most likely would be, anyways).

Now... You're confusing lightsaber-to-lightsaber as being this narrow-field of combat which only applies if both combatants agree not to kick, elbow, or Force push, neither of which is the case. Dooku in particular mixes his mastery of Makashi with multiple instances of both physical contact and offensive Force usage. He's almost unique in this regard.

So your semantic butchery of the form doesn't hold water. Additionally, Vaapad's requirements don't necessarily make the lightsaber user better at the one thing Makashi exists to perfect - lightsaber fighting. If you break down the individual styles that make up Juyo/Vaapad, you'll see that they all mask weaknesses, or seek to specialize in certain things which do not always have a bearing on lightsaber fighting.

Soresu is originally conceived to provide superior defense for jedi against blaster bolts. It cannot seize the advantage, and can only turtle until one presents itself. Dooku dissects a verified Soresu master in seconds. That form is worthless. Ataru is an acrobatic form which sacrifices defense for a strong offense complete with Force-aided movements. Dooku both trained an Ataru practitioner and trained heavily under one - Yoda is indicated to have dueled with Dooku many times during their lives, and thus Dooku's awareness of the form's strengths and weaknesses have allowed him to pretty much nullify its advantages. Ataru-using Anakin was quickly reversed and destroyed; Yoda's vicious onslaught did not yield any formal victory. This form does not benefit Mace either.

Considering Dooku has already decimated Sora Bulq, who was said to have mastered many lightsaber styles and helped build Vaapad with Mace (Although was noticably inferior to Mace), this is another point in Dooku's favor.

Or basically, tl;dr: Dooku's been shown to have adequately dealt with both Mace, his numerous fighting styles, and his peers and buddies.

I don't see how Mace fanboys are still thinking he takes this when all they can prove is he holds dirt together and he has "OMFG teh wild style!"

EDIT: Hey, Makashi-man. What's up?

Well, now you're just being completely insensitive. I should warn you: further comments like "semantic butchery" and "Mace fanboys" may just hurt my feelings. We'll address that issue as it comes along, and we'll only do it once. After that, if confining your remarks to the argument itself is too difficult for you, then we needn't continue.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So basically Mace's great claim to TK fame is holding dirt together once it's already stopped. Mace Windu does not stop the wave, thus he is not exerting TK force enough to control that amount of weight. Once the the momentum is spent, he can then exert barely enough control to keep it from collapsing back into the lava. Gravity itself is holding the majority of the weight down while he stabilizes the top.

So again, why are we appauding this TK as 'far superior'?

Who said that it was far superior? I simply said that maintaining a wide Force grip on hundreds of tons of rocks and dirt is more powerful than, say, disarming Quinlan Vos or throttling Motti.

Vaapad is considered the most demanding because of its skirting the Dark Side with its usage. It requires extreme mental discipline to not 'give in' to the rush of battle, as demonstrated in Shatterpoint. However, this doesn't immediately make it better than a fighting style deliberately made to overcome other Jedi. Keep in mind that while Mace Windu was developing and finishing his style, the Sith hadn't been seen in over a thousand years. He is shown to be incredibly instinctual in combat and great at improvising in unusual situations, as demonstrated in Shatterpoint,

Juyo and Vaapad are apparently so difficult to master that it requires "high-level masters of multiple forms" to even attempt it. That blatantly suggests a greater requisite skill than Makashi.

but even when he had more or less perfected his fighting style, Dooku still beat him.

We know that Dooku beat him in the past; what we don't know is the circumstances or timeframe. If you have answers to both, you will need to provide the evidence.

Additionally, none of the other forms comes close to Makashi for sheer technical ability. It is the penultimate lightsaber form, and pretending that a varied proficiency of styles deliberately made for other uses (blocking or reflecting blaster bolts, channeling your emotions, fueling your abilities with the Force, etc.) is somehow superior is missing the point, or confusing "quantity over quality". Dooku does not "possess" Vaapad because it is a specific school of Juyo taught only by Mace.

I'm curious how any of this means that it is better than Vaapad or Juyo. You ever hear the expression "Jack of All Trades, Master of None"? Vaapad is essentially "Jack of All Trades, Master of All." And it's interesting that you mention quality over quantity, since every source makes it quite clear that in order to even attempt to master Vaapad, you must be a "high level master of multiple forms." High level. High. Vaapad has both quality and quantity going for it. What about Makashi?

This doesn't mean he's incapable of defeating it, as he has already done so once before (According to the New Essential Guide to Characters, if I'm not mistaken).

The official databank says that only two Jedi have ever defeated Mace: Yoda and Dooku. It was not specific on the timeframe or circumstances. Prove that he has defeated Vaapad since, by definition, Mace would have had to master multiple forms before he could have created it.

Mace's lack of knowledge in Makashi, however, could be a problem.

Curious how you assume Mace lacks a knowledge of Makashi, since there's nothing particularly special about it relative to other forms (unlike Vaapad), and since Mace is a seasoned Jedi Master, second only to Yoda, and -- oh yes -- a "high-level master of multiple forms."

Since Dooku's style is specifically made to defeat other lightsaber opponents, he specializes in the very thing they're both being judged on here.

Oh, well, then it's decided. Count Dooku wins this and all other matches! Makashi duelists reign supreme!

...

Actually, I'm going to have to retract that. I watched two movies recently, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, where "the undisputed master" couldn't beat two opponents [Yoda, Anakin Skywalker] who were wielding inferior forms.

So much for the idea that Makashi is the end all be all.

Mace's style is all about him expressing himself and learning to be adaptive. And it's a wonderful style. It's not the best style for all lightsaber fights, though. And it does not elevate his skill above a renowned master who has... wait, did I mention this already? Defeated him before.

Mace's style is considered the deadliest form, the most demanding form, and requires all of its masters to be high end masters of other forms. Makashi... has no such particular prerequisites. It is essentially the Honors Algebra II to Vaapad's Calculus.

And yes, you did mention Dooku defeating Mace before. Several times. What you forgot to mention were the timeframe and the circumstances. But, hey, what do the details matter? Guess Anakin's ass kicking of Dooku on Tattooine and Invisible Hand really are a sign of superior skill.

You might want to keep the spin doctoring to yourself, Janus. It's not a road you want to go down.

Even Dark Rendezvouz implies that Mace being on neutral ground with him is a possible match for Dooku, not that the Jedi Master is clearly equal to or better than Dooku in combat.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light."

Don't lie. The line is "perhaps only Mace Windu" -- meaning that Mace Windu is the only definite equal. It's not an implication nor a possibility.

Way to miss the point.

Lightsaber-to-lightsaber fighting is the deciding factor between combatants who may be similar in Force powers as each other. So for example, Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi could not overcome each other using the Force. So they had to use the lightsaber. Same with Yoda and Dooku, if you remember correctly. Even if you assert that Mace and Dooku's TK is too close to call, you must turn to the lightsaber fighting as the deciding factor (Which it most likely would be, anyways).

Don't reference Yoda and Dooku; their Force powers weren't close at all. Yoda regarded Dooku's power with something bordering on contempt and disdain; demonstrated by the fact that he didn't even bother fighting back until the lightning came along the last time.

The lightsaber is the primary means of fighting during a duel, I recognize this. But who said it was the only factor?

Now... You're confusing lightsaber-to-lightsaber as being this narrow-field of combat which only applies if both combatants agree not to kick, elbow, or Force push, neither of which is the case. Dooku in particular mixes his mastery of Makashi with multiple instances of both physical contact and offensive Force usage. He's almost unique in this regard.

Wrong. "Lightsaber-to-lightsaber" is a qualifier; the statement wasn't even given "lightsaber combat" or "combat." It means, quite simply, that only with the banging of the sticks does Makashi demonstrate its glory. And Dooku's physical and offensive Force use is consigned to only when he is outnumbered, which he is not here.

So your semantic butchery of the form doesn't hold water. Additionally, Vaapad's requirements don't necessarily make the lightsaber user better at the one thing Makashi exists to perfect - lightsaber fighting. If you break down the individual styles that make up Juyo/Vaapad, you'll see that they all mask weaknesses, or seek to specialize in certain things which do not always have a bearing on lightsaber fighting.

What bullshit. All forms carry inherent weaknesses, Janus. I realize you're not a fan of the novelization, but Dooku's own thoughts make it clear: even Makashi has weaknesses. It's, kinetically, as lame as they come, which is why he struggled against Skywalker.

Soresu is originally conceived to provide superior defense for jedi against blaster bolts. It cannot seize the advantage, and can only turtle until one presents itself. Dooku dissects a verified Soresu master in seconds. That form is worthless. Ataru is an acrobatic form which sacrifices defense for a strong offense complete with Force-aided movements. Dooku both trained an Ataru practitioner and trained heavily under one - Yoda is indicated to have dueled with Dooku many times during their lives, and thus Dooku's awareness of the form's strengths and weaknesses have allowed him to pretty much nullify its advantages. Ataru-using Anakin was quickly reversed and destroyed; Yoda's vicious onslaught did not yield any formal victory. This form does not benefit Mace either.

I'm curious how this is relevant; Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda, who used an inferior form. Same for Anakin. Twice. And same for Windu on Boz Pity. Windu is a "high end master" of multiple forms; he is a master of offensive and defensive techniques. He isn't Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is essentially consigned to a defensive style nor is he Anakin Skywalker, relegated to a straightforward, barbarous discipline like Djem So. He's got versatility and a vastly wider arsenal than Dooku.

Considering Dooku has already decimated Sora Bulq, who was said to have mastered many lightsaber styles and helped build Vaapad with Mace (Although was noticably inferior to Mace), this is another point in Dooku's favor.

Lame and for two reasons:

1.) You mention that he is noticeably inferior to Mace. Which somehow makes me wonder how the argument is valid...

2.) Dooku didn't own Sora Bulq with "lulz uber Makashi moves!!1!" He removed him with Force lightning. Or did I miss the part where Makashi is defined as "the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat and zapping the **** out of people suddenly"?

Or basically, tl;dr: Dooku's been shown to have adequately dealt with both Mace,

You mean the sparring matches he won when Mace was younger? When the timeframe and circumstances aren't given? When he might not have invented Vaapad?

Or do you mean the time that he told his minions on Boz Pity to "leave the Jedi to [him]!" and yet, when confronted with Mace, decided to haul ass away and blindside him with Magnaguards?

his numerous fighting styles,

You mean shocking the hell out of Sora Bulq's "Vaapad" (which he didn't really even master)? Or taking out Obi-Wan Kenobi's Soresu with the Force? Or losing to Anakin's Djem So (twice) and Yoda's Ataru (twice)?

and his peers and buddies.

You mean shocking the hell out of Sora Bulq's "Vaapad" (which he didn't even really master)? Or taking out Obi-Wan Kenobi's Soresu with the Force? Or losing to Anakin's Djem So (twice) and Yoda's Ataru (twice; both of which were on Confederacy strongholds with advantages that truly boggle the mind)?

I don't see how Mace fanboys are still thinking he takes this when all they can prove is he holds dirt together and he has "OMFG teh wild style!"

Man, you sure are quick to throw out the fanboy title to anyone who disagrees with you. Mace is a new one; I'm either a Sidious fanboy or a Mace fanboy, Janus. Pick one and stick with it; you've lost your flair for originality.

Who said that it was far superior? I simply said that maintaining a wide Force grip on hundreds of tons of rocks and dirt is more powerful than, say, disarming Quinlan Vos or throttling Motti.

So instead of addressing the point-by-point analysis I provided you ignore it and reassert something else? Well, whatever works for you. I've provided evidence that Mace was not maintaining the entirety of the "hundreds of tons of rocks and dirt" in that landslide. Considering most of it fell into a lava-filled gully and later splashed down past the very steamcrawler he was on, there's no way you could accurately say it was more than a truck load of dirt and rocks before him, much less "hundreds of tons". And he wasn't supporting it up in the air - he was keeping it from spilling back into the lava filled gully.

Let's go over the passage again since you're apparently incapable of reading comprehension:

"Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof."

Now, look at that. The last "remnants" kissed the edge of the steamcrawler, and Mace uses his wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble WHILE he gets down to the roof. So yeah, he did not "grip" all of the "hundreds of tons" of the landslide by any measure, only the remnants which formed a mound after the thing had already lurched to a halt.

A mound. Jeez, what a mountain comprised of "tons" of rock and dirt!

"In seizing the 'crawler he'd lost his Force-hold on the landslide, and the unstable mound of dirt and rock had begun to shift under the little girl and the two boys, sending them sliding down toward the lava."

Apparently, this mound was so heavy, with its tons of dirt and rock, that the weight of three kids pretty much made it unstable and want to slide back down into a gully. That's some heavy rocks and dirt right there!

Juyo and Vaapad are apparently so difficult to master that it requires "high-level masters of multiple forms" to even attempt it. That blatantly suggests a greater requisite skill than Makashi.

You're being daft again - more is not always better. Learning how to be proficient at blaster bolts, or aggressive Force-aided jump spins does not make you a better duelist in lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Being the expert of a form which specializes in lightsaber to lightsaber combat does, however.

Good to know you're awesome at reading comprehension.

We know that Dooku beat him in the past; what we don't know is the circumstances or timeframe. If you have answers to both, you will need to provide the evidence.

I don't get this at all; Dooku and Mace fought as Jedi, meaning they fought in a sparring competition. The excerpt did not say 'Dooku ninja-ambushed Mace while the latter was coming out of the bar and completely unarmed'. So suddenly I have to substantiate a noted win in Dooku's record because you don't like it, but when I ask you to substantiate how Agen and Saessee are more fools with lightsabers, you fall back on EU blanket statements and refuse to elaborate.

Jeez, hypocrisy much?

Unless the excerpt says that "Dooku beat Mace in an unfair match, and was a punk about it", I don't see any reason to substantiate this with material I don't have in the first place. Dooku beat Mace, presumably on neutral ground. Dark Rendezvouz states that Mace MIGHT be an equal for Dooku on neutral ground. Keyword - might. And this is months before RotS. So obviously, even if Mace has grown in power since then, he's still not overshadowing Dooku at all.

Skipping the next part because it's regurgitation of the same nonsense. The quality of the multiple levels needed in Juyo aren't styles specializing in lightsaber to lightsaber dueling. If I specialize in heart transplants, and you're a general surgeon, you are not better than me at heart transplants, even if some of your general duties may touch on heart transplant techniques. Learn to realize that "OMFG MOAR STYLEZ" doesn't mean better dueling capability. Cin Drallig knew almost every style out, including some Makashi, and he got completely tooled.

The official databank says that only two Jedi have ever defeated Mace: Yoda and Dooku. It was not specific on the timeframe or circumstances. Prove that he has defeated Vaapad since, by definition, Mace would have had to master multiple forms before he could have created it.

Well, considering Dooku left the Jedi Order between TPM and AotC, and furthermore since Mace's star pupil Depa was a Council member and no longer in training as of TPM, it's not an unreasonable that the duel occurred not only before TPM, but after Mace's mastery of the style. Depa was the only real Vaapad practitioner who had learned it after Mace completed it, and she was again, a Council member and no longer in his training as of TPM.

Curious how you assume Mace lacks a knowledge of Makashi, since there's nothing particularly special about it relative to other forms (unlike Vaapad), and since Mace is a seasoned Jedi Master, second only to Yoda, and -- oh yes -- a "high-level master of multiple forms."

In every single description of Vaapad/Juyo, the styles it's made up of or compared to always include Soresu, Djem So, and Ataru. Those are "multiple forms". Nowhere is the description listing "all forms". Cin Drallig, who knows "all of the forms", clearly illustrates Vaapad's methods with quotes referring it to these same three fighting styles.

There was a quote from him which clearly stated that those were the only ones which made it up, but after the better part of an hour trying to locate it, I've given up.

Oh, well, then it's decided. Count Dooku wins this and all other matches! Makashi duelists reign supreme!

...

Actually, I'm going to have to retract that. I watched two movies recently, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, where "the undisputed master" couldn't beat two opponents [Yoda, Anakin Skywalker] who were wielding inferior forms.

So much for the idea that Makashi is the end all be all.

Yoda is clearly stated to be better than Dooku and helped train him, and sparred with him for decades. Of course he'll do well. Yoda never overcame Dooku, however.

As for Anakin, he got in close and used his immense physical strength and tapped the Dark Side to overcome Dooku. Normal Skywalker couldnt' beat Dooku with pure skill; he benefited from the Count's arrogance and apparently plan to capture but not kill Skywalker, and things got out of hand.

Considering Skywalker in all other situations was roundly defeated by Dooku, even when working with buddies, the exception isn't the rule.

Mace's style is considered the deadliest form, the most demanding form, and requires all of its masters to be high end masters of other forms. Makashi... has no such particular prerequisites. It is essentially the Honors Algebra II to Vaapad's Calculus.

Yoda graciously referred to Vaapad as the deadliest form, and then goes on to explain its personal dangers. You've taken that out of context before. Likewise, Cin Drallig, who actually has some expertise in the field of Juyo, Vaapad's foundation form, states that it's demanding and rewarding. But he also states that Makashi is THE refinement of saber-to-saber fighting, which clearly means that Makashi is better for the purpose of (gasp!) lightsaber fighting!

It's so axiomatic I can't believe you're putting up this huge deal about it. Again, general ER surgeon isn't better at heart surgery then the heart specialist. Get it through your head already.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light."

Don't lie. The line is "perhaps only Mace Windu" -- meaning that Mace Windu is the only definite equal. It's not an implication nor a possibility.

Dear Santa, please bring Esape some common sense and reading comprehension for Christmas. Thank you.

Jeez, perhaps only Escape could wow us with his incredible skills of "not understanding English" and "using statements as absolutes only when they're twisted to meet his own ends". The entire fact that the narration puts a CONDITIONAL on the idea of Mace being Dooku's equal means that it's not a given that he's even in the same ballpark. Mace may be slightly beneath Dooku, or a tier below. Learn how to read, Escape.

The lightsaber is the primary means of fighting during a duel, I recognize this. But who said it was the only factor?

The entire point is you're dumbing down Makashi's importance in a duel, trying to pretend like it's too specific to be of use. There's no evidence to prove this, and you haven't substantiated how lightsaber fighting specialists would somehow be inferior to those who have varied non-dueling-centric styles proficiency. In other words, Dooku can kick and Force choke and drop ceilings on folks in mid-combat. Why are you ****ing bringing this up?

Wrong. "Lightsaber-to-lightsaber" is a qualifier; the statement wasn't even given "lightsaber combat" or "combat." It means, quite simply, that only with the banging of the sticks does Makashi demonstrate its glory. And Dooku's physical and offensive Force use is consigned to only when he is outnumbered, which he is not here.

"A refinement of blade-against-blade combat, Form II has produced some of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen. By the time of Star Wars saga, Form II had pretty much become an archaic curiosity, as modern Jedi had not faced lightsaber-wielding foes in over a thousand years."

Duuuur. You fail at teh readingz, Escape!

I guess blade-to-blade combat is a highly rituatlized, non-varied sport which is like modern fencing. Dooku taps Mace five times on the chest and gets the Gold Medal! Yay!

You completely abuse the English language to suit your agenda, it's kind of sad. If Socrates could read these semantic failings of yours, he'd eat poison all over again. So I guess all those great dueling masters who originated in the years of combat between Jedi and Sith/Dark Jedi fighting totally couldn't handle anyone who knew JUYO since it implies something other than uh... lightsaber mastery. So I guess Mace Windu is going to pull out nunchucks and Dooku is completely ****ed, right?

Do you really believe this stuff?

What bullshit. All forms carry inherent weaknesses, Janus. I realize you're not a fan of the novelization, but Dooku's own thoughts make it clear: even Makashi has weaknesses. It's, kinetically, as lame as they come, which is why he struggled against Skywalker.

Which doesn't make sense in general, since Dooku in-movie is clearly shown to be able to withstand the combined blows and strength of Obi-wan and Anakin. While Anakin "in teh zone" obviously has more physical power than normal, the exception isn't the rule. Dooku withstood blows from Yoda... Yoda who BREAKS saber locks with Sidious like it's his job, despite being physically smaller and having less leverage. The same Yoda who's got incredible strength in his blows, able to KNOCK SIDIOUS OFF BALANCE with his assault, and yet Dooku whethers it without a stutter in his stride.

So yeah, great job talking about a weakness not explicitly seen in the movies.

I'm curious how this is relevant; Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda, who used an inferior form. Same for Anakin. Twice. And same for Windu on Boz Pity. Windu is a "high end master" of multiple forms; he is a master of offensive and defensive techniques. He isn't Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is essentially consigned to a defensive style nor is he Anakin Skywalker, relegated to a straightforward, barbarous discipline like Djem So. He's got versatility and a vastly wider arsenal than Dooku.

You've made it a point that "moar forms means teh bettur". When some of the forms have no clear advantage against Dooku, I question the quality of the forms that do not 'make up' Vaapad, but allow for better use (Cin Drallig's own words, mind you).

Lame and for two reasons:

1.) You mention that he is noticeably inferior to Mace. Which somehow makes me wonder how the argument is valid...

2.) Dooku didn't own Sora Bulq with "lulz uber Makashi moves!!1!" He removed him with Force lightning. Or did I miss the part where Makashi is defined as "the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat and zapping the **** out of people suddenly"

The whole point was that Sora Bulq helped make Vaapad and he was supposively a saber prodigy who knew all forms. He got trashed, although I don't remember how long he and Dooku crossed blades. I don't have any scans other than the one where he gets zapped.

I'm going to finish my little essay and then I'll get back to you.

I have a strong feeling that this will end as it usually does, so I’m going to make an attempt to preempt that colossal waste of time and address the major points, one final time.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So instead of addressing the point-by-point analysis I provided you ignore it and reassert something else? Well, whatever works for you.

You should really stop lecturing on reading comprehension, Janus, because it’s not as if you’re some sort of expert on that particular art. What I said wasn’t so much a reassertion as it was a clarification of my original premise, since you attempted to deliberately take it out of context.

You're being daft again - more is not always better. Learning how to be proficient at blaster bolts, or aggressive Force-aided jump spins does not make you a better duelist in lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Being the expert of a form which specializes in lightsaber to lightsaber combat does, however.

Good to know you're awesome at reading comprehension.

So, what you’re trying to say is that Makashi is the end all be all and that Dooku is, by extension, the Force’s gift to lightsaber combat? Why won’t you just come out and say these things? Probably because—and I don’t mean to interrupt your wet dream—it’s directly contradicted by both the movies and the EU. The movies show Dooku defeated by Yoda and Anakin, the EU shows Dooku being defeated by Yoda and Anakin and driven off by Windu’s mere presence. The idea that Dooku will win this fight because he wields Makashi flies about as well as the Hindenburg.

The databank’s comment on the issue is thus: “In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi Order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him—Yoda and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master his Form VII discipline of combat—the deadly technique known as Vaapad—for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.”

That’s it. You’ve yet to offer the name or statements from the elusive source that somehow indicates Dooku defeated Mace in a royal curbstomp even with Vaapad at his disposal. What does the excerpt from the databank mean? It means, quite simply, that Yoda and Dooku were the only ones who had ever defeated him in combat. Ever. It doesn’t even remotely imply a timeline; they could have sparred when Mace was an up-and-coming Jedi Knight, when he was just developing Vaapad, when he had ripped his Achilles tendon, when he just mastered the second of the “multiple” forms required to master Vaapad… all sorts of options. Moreover, understand that Dooku had been a Jedi for, what? Five to six decades? There’s literally no telling when the fight occurred. You have been using this fact as the means by which to promote a Dooku-laden agenda in this argument and it doesn’t work. Period.

There was a quote from him which clearly stated that those were the only ones which made it up, but after the better part of an hour trying to locate it, I've given up.

The fact that Cin Drallig compares Vaapad to three certain forms does not mean that those are the requisite forms; they are never mentioned in a specific source.

Yoda is clearly stated to be better than Dooku and helped train him, and sparred with him for decades. Of course he'll do well. Yoda never overcame Dooku, however.

Yoda never overcame Dooku? Jesus, it’s nice to know the Dooku shadowfeed is still alive and kicking. Goebbels would have a field day with your special brand of propaganda. Seriously; it would make a Special Ed class raise their collective eyebrow.

Yoda drove the Count to retreat twice. The second time was most telling: despite the fact that Dooku was on a Confederacy-held planet, with an army at his disposal, and the fact that it was a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force—the novel making reference that his powers were enhanced—Dooku had a strategist’s wildest dream of a home turf advantage and still ran. Hell, to add to the embarrassing defeat: he even recognized, on some level, that this probably wouldn’t be enough to stop Yoda. He outright confesses to it, and mentions that’s why he had a missile put in high orbit. Dooku used some of his enhanced yet woefully inadequate mojo to haul ass in a retreat.

What’s more telling is that Dooku began the fight hurling a woman out of a window and attacking Yoda while he struggled to save her; he said he would take great pleasure killing Yoda, whose response was “Wish to hurt you, I do not!”

In both situations, Dooku enjoyed the home turf advantage and was fighting a foe who specifically didn’t want to kill him. And he ran. If Yoda attacked Dooku like he attacked Sidious? Dooku would have been crushed.

Normal Skywalker couldnt' beat Dooku with pure skill; he benefited from the Count's arrogance and apparently plan to capture but not kill Skywalker, and things got out of hand.

“Apparently plan to capture and not kill Skywalker?” This is about as hilarious as the reading comprehension jabs. Words can’t capture the nature of your hypocrisy; if Webster could read this, he’d scratch his head looking for an adjective. I seem to recall a certain statement from Yoda that Dooku must be “captured” before he rallied more systems to his cause… Yoda not fighting back in the Force battle until the very last salvo… also seem to recall Yoda going to Vjun to win his beloved protégé over again… constant assurances that he didn’t wish to hurt him…

You’ll probably ignore this, but here’s for our viewers!

"A refinement of blade-against-blade combat, Form II has produced some of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen. By the time of Star Wars saga, Form II had pretty much become an archaic curiosity, as modern Jedi had not faced lightsaber-wielding foes in over a thousand years."

Form II has produced some of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy had ever seen. The key word—the qualifier—being some. SOME. What’s this? Not all of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy had ever seen were Makashi users? But… wait. Wait, wait. How can that be? Makashi is the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat! Every other form is inferior. It’s the end all be all. How can it produce only some? That would imply that Soresu masters can be among the greatest. Or Ataru masters. Or… dare I say it… Juyo users?

Could it be that, since it seems as though masters of other forms can ascend to plateaus as high as Makashi masters, that Juyo—a form that requires “high end masters of multiple forms”—a form with far greater demands and skill sets required to use it adequately—a form that “only the most skilled” could use—is such a form?

Could it be? Could it be that that means that Count Dooku, who has been defeated by users of inferior forms, the one who fled—like the most blatant and unrepentant of cowards after assuring his minions that they should “leave the Jedi to him”—from the opponent he is now, for the purposes of the thread, dueling… could lose?

These questions are rhetorical, because the answer is obvious: yes.
In short, Dooku’s mastery of Makashi doesn’t even suggest a guaranteed win. Mace is the master of a more dangerous, more demanding, more versatile lightsaber form. He is the master of the shatterpoint charism, with supernatural perceptions. He was able to use those tools to defeat Palpatine—the man who held Dooku in servile submission for decades—the one who was in terrible awe of Sidious as a man and as a Force user. The man who is more powerful and more capable than Dooku. If Windu can do that, the chances are high that he can defeat Dooku.

Particularly since, and have I mentioned this before? Dooku ran from Windu. He couldn't even beat him with help.

Woo hoo, semantic redirection and evasion! Five points go to Gryffindor!

Seriously, you are just wasting my time now. I realize it would absolutely destroy your credibility if you actually agreed with me on something, since you made a career in this place of challenging me on every topic imaginable, but now you're just being completely daft and whiny.

I'm tired of debating with you, Escape. Go preach to the other people who can't be bothered to evaluate their own opinions and use reason to come about proper answers. You aren't worth the time to reply to anymore.

And keep on obeying those commandments:

The Commandments of Fanboyism.

I. Thou shalt not adhere to logic if and when it impedes the progress of your biased argument.

II. Thou shalt insult the opposition as a diversionary tactic when thy arguments are proven horribly false.

III. Thou shalt not admit under any circumstances that thou art lost concerning thy argument.

IV. Thou shalt use hyperbole liberally throughout thy argument.

V. Thou shalt not reply directly to any well-formulated rebuttals or questions.

VI. Thou shalt always retreat back to an earlier defeated point when thy latest point runs aground.

VII. Thou shalt not respect the equally valid sources of thy opposition and should seek to destroy their credibility with extreme prejudice.

VIII. Thou shalt play the victim when thy argument is being destroyed and thy own personal ignorance coming under fire.

IX. Thou shalt exclusively debate topics which deal with thy most favorite, unreproachable characters.

X. Thou art infallible in so much as thou crusade against the opposition with all the lowly weapons of thy craft.

Amen.

Well, that was predictable. I tend to forget that you define "evasion" as "arguing the point and not submitting to my will!!1!" You should know, however, that that's not the real definition.

I'm tired of debating with you, Escape. Go preach to the other people who can't be bothered to evaluate their own opinions and use reason to come about proper answers. You aren't worth the time to reply to anymore.

Translation: "I'm tired of losing and will save face by telling the other side that they are losing and retreat."

Please. Don't bother, you'll be back to argue with me. Where else will middle aged men get their online kicks? People your age are out tending to their grandchildren. You need teenagers to argue with.

Not worth your time... lol.

Gideon how can you say Makashi doesn't demonstrate the kinetic force to keep up with Vapaad? The only true practitioner and master of Makashi we've seen is Dooku who is in his 80's. Kinda hard for and 80 yr. old to generate kinetic energy when they run a 70/30 chance of breaking a hip.

Back in the day when I used to spar with my cousins I would use a one handed/finesse style and never found myself being thrown around because of it.

If you were to put Dooku's expertise, experience, prowess, and brains in Anakin's body it would be scary.

You seem to hate Dooku a lot despite your loyalty to the other old british guy who isn't even half the actor Christopher Lee is...

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
Gideon how can you say Makashi doesn't demonstrate the kinetic force to keep up with Vapaad?

Dooku's own musings that Makashi -- not him -- was unable to keep up with Djem So, which is kinetically weaker than Vaapad.

The only true practitioner and master of Makashi we've seen is Dooku who is in his 80's. Kinda hard for and 80 yr. old to generate kinetic energy when they run a 70/30 chance of breaking a hip.

Dark Rendezvous mentions that Dooku is in superb physical shape and wore his eighty plus years better than most people half his age. And once again, Dooku noted Makashi wasn't capable of doing it.

Back in the day when I used to spar with my cousins I would use a one handed/finesse style and never found myself being thrown around because of it.

That's cool, but not relevant.

If you were to put Dooku's expertise, experience, prowess, and brains in Anakin's body it would be scary.

That's cool, but not relevant.

You seem to hate Dooku a lot despite your loyalty to the other old british guy who isn't even half the actor Christopher Lee is...

Tons and tons of problems with this...

First, I don't hate Dooku. I recognize him to be a powerful Sith Lord. I just realize he's not the end all be all.

Second, comparing McDiarmid and Lee is irrelevant; we're comparing their characters.

Third, I'm not loyal to Palpatine. I've just recognized (and proven) that he is the most powerful Force user in the mythos, who happens to be more powerful, smarter, and greater than Dooku. Not personal preference, merely a reflection of canon truths.

Just out of curiosity, but how is kinetic force relevant in a duel with weightless weapons? which means they have no mass and therefore it doesn't matter how much kinetic force you use. It would be similar to banging those swimming pool stick floats around.

EDIT - Not to mention all you have to do is tap somebody with a lightsaber to seriously injure them.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Just out of curiosity, but how is kinetic force relevant in a duel with weightless weapons? which means they have no mass and therefore it doesn't matter how much kinetic force you use. It would be similar to banging those swimming pool stick floats around.

EDIT - Not to mention all you have to do is tap somebody with a lightsaber to seriously injure them.

Beats me. But you still seem to think that LFL makes sense. 😄