RotS Mace Windu VS RotS Count Dooku

Started by SIDIOUS 6614 pages

Originally posted by Eminence
No. It was during Dark Rendezvous, which takes place mere months before RotS.
I am not asking when he said it. I am asking what time he was refering to. Was he talking about when Dooku was a jedi? Pay attention.

No he didn't. Shatterpoint makes it clear that he had developed and mastered Vaapad by the time Dooku left the Order; even his apprentice, Depa, had mastered and surpassed him in the style by that point in time.
How long before Dooku left? I don't think he had invented it while Dooku was still a jedi. I could be wrong.

In all likelihood, Mace hadn't improved significantly in saber combat in quite some time.

Huh?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It just really disappointed me that Dooku was captured by some drunken pirates. Mace has taken out much larger armies of droids with the force alone.

yeah that was crap! even if Mace is superior, a Jedi/Sith of Dookus caliber getting captured by pirates??!! whats that all about? he tosses away, chokes, levitates and completely paralyses the likes of Obiwan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos, but what he cant do that to pirates?? I think its probably Lucas telling us that for all their powers Jedis/Sith are not gods and not invincible by any means. But your right that sucked!

But by the way in episode 22 when Mace Force crushes droids, he does have his lightsaber to deflect any blaster fire coming his way as well. Its quite obvious in the new animated series that neither him or yoda can replicate Maces feat from the clone wars mini series without a lightsaber. As Filoni himself did say that mini series had an "Exaggerated and Over the Top use of the Force."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I am not asking when he said it. I am asking what time he was refering to. Was he talking about when Dooku was a jedi?

It wasnt Mace who said it. It was the Narrator of Dark Rendesvouz.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How long before Dooku left? I don't think he had invented it while Dooku was still a jedi. I could be wrong.

Doesnt really matter because Dark Rendesvouz was set only 6 months before ROTS.
not to mention they clashed blades in Obsession just 5 months before ROTS, and neither it seemed could gain an advantage. And yes Dooku fled, but that means nothing except he knew he culdnt Defeat Mace easily. Remember even Sidious tried to run from Yoda, but in the end it seemed Sidious had the slight advantage in their fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah that was crap! even if Mace is superior, a Jedi/Sith of Dookus caliber getting captured by pirates??!! whats that all about? he tosses away, chokes, levitates and completely paralyses the likes of Obiwan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos, but what he cant do that to pirates?? I think its probably Lucas telling us that for all their powers Jedis/Sith are not gods and not invincible by any means. But your right that sucked!

But by the way in episode 22 when Mace Force crushes droids, he does have his lightsaber to deflect any blaster fire coming his way as well. Its quite obvious in the new animated series that neither him or yoda can replicate Maces feat from the clone wars mini series without a lightsaber. As Filoni himself did say that mini series had an "Exaggerated and Over the Top use of the Force."

I know that the mini series may have made the jedi too powerful, but it is still considered canon. Supposedly Lucas even said that is how he wanted his jedi to be. Even though Mace did not use the force in the same extreme way in TCW, as he did in the mini series, he still impressed me quite a bit. He still reduced a handful of droids to scrap, threw a huge walker over a cliff, and slammed a huge platform to destroy another walker.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I am not asking when he said it. I am asking what time he was refering to.
That's what I was addressing. Pay attention.

It was noted that, "on even ground [...] perhaps only Mace Windu" would be able to stand against Dooku, stressing that on Vjun only Yoda could take him. It applied to the characters as of DR, not some conveniently random point in time when Dooku was a Jedi.

How long before Dooku left? I don't think he had invented it while Dooku was still a jedi. I could be wrong.
You are. I just told you why.

Pay attention.

Huh?
"Huh" what? I don't think that Mace's swordsmanship improved significantly between TPM and RotS; what part of that was hard to understand?

Pay attention.

Originally posted by Eminence
That's what I was addressing. Pay attention.

It was noted that, "on even ground [...] perhaps only Mace Windu" would be able to stand against Dooku, stressing that on Vjun only Yoda could take him. It applied to the characters as of DR, not some conveniently random point in time when Dooku was a Jedi.

You are. I just told you why.

Pay attention.

"Huh" what? I don't think that Mace's swordsmanship improved significantly between TPM and RotS; what part of that was hard to understand?

Pay attention.

Whatever.....

Still doesn't prove Dooku is superior. You said it was implied that only Yoda can take him on Vjun. I thought we were talking about even ground.

I didn't say Dooku was superior...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I know that the mini series may have made the jedi too powerful, but it is still considered canon. Supposedly Lucas even said that is how he wanted his jedi to be. Even though Mace did not use the force in the same extreme way in TCW, as he did in the mini series, he still impressed me quite a bit. He still reduced a handful of droids to scrap, threw a huge walker over a cliff, and slammed a huge platform to destroy another walker.

Lucas said that was his "Ideal Version of Jedis"... so obviously his Ideal versions(ONly shown in CW mini series/and possibly some games) are far superior to the versions we see evrywhere else. so we cant make comparisons like that.

yes Mace did do some serious Droid crushing in the new animation. It even impressed me. but Anakins also done impressive things, he threw one droid into a whole load of others with such force it destroyed them all.
What about when Obi-wan was ambushed by General Greivous and his droids, and he took them ALL out with just the Force(including 3 Destroyer droids).
Although I admit Mace Windus feats seemd a level above these(which should be expected) we still have to bear in mind Dooku doesnt fight Driods, so we dnt knw how much more hed be capable of.

Originally posted by Eminence
I don't think that Mace's swordsmanship improved significantly between TPM and RotS;

I actually think he did improve a lot from TPM to AOTC. round PM time he used to draw with Qui-Gon Jinn in sparring, and used to get beat by Jedi Dooku, who wasnt as Powerful as Sith Dooku. but he hardly improved after AOTC. although he did gain some kind of new found confidence in Shatterpoint which was very early on in the clone wars.

Mace is one of my favorite characters along with Dooku, Kenobi, and Yoda but I can see him losing. It all depends. The surroundings and such.

Dooku has vast dueling experience as does Mace.

Some people have become enchanted with Vapaad and the fantastical portrayal of it by some rather hackish writers.

Mace is one of the most powerful Jedi that ever lived. As was Dooku.

In Lightsaber Combat I would give the slight edge to Mace, due to his age and his better physical condition.

Dooku left the order after the death of Qui Gon.

If I recall correctly, Mace was already a master of his form around the events of TPM.

Dooku himself a master of Makashi, by then.

They were both powerful warriors at the top of they're respective games'.

In terms of Force power and ability, Dooku was said by Yoda to be one of the most powerful of his generation and become one of the most powerful Jedi in the history of the order.

It could go either way. The most likely result being a stalemate between the two. If either defeats the other, it would be by a small margin and the winner would no doubt have been given a serious run for his money.

Old thread is old.

Pretty much, Mace and Dooku would be one of the closest fights in history according to some. Others seem to apply vague traits like "Mace has more raw power" or "Mace's style is more dangerous" or "Mace is blacker and thus has inferior credit to Dooku". In this entire thread, only Faunus was actively applying objective points to the evidence, despite his own opinion on who should win. Kudos to him.

If you break this fight down to the basic level, you have to understand each fighter's strengths:

Mace's strengths lie in his Vaapad style, which is basically centered around his own primal subconscious and the Shatterpoint ability. Vaapad being a personal improvement on the master form Juyo, implies a broad range of lightsaber skills. Mace is described as being difficult to predict, wild, and yet having a semblance of control over himself just barely. This coupled with Shatterpoint makes him an incredibly dangerous and instinctive fighter.

Dooku's strength lies in his refined, competitive, saber-first fighting style and his incredible power in the Force. The first is pretty self-evident - he is able to fight with Yoda on even ground and -while unable to defeat the Jedi Master - is able to keep up with him in a way no one else can in the series. Dooku defeats the likes of Obi-Wan, Anakin, Assajj, and more using his blades. Dooku has defeated Mace before. It is interesting to note that his apprentice, Qui-Gon, apparently stalemated Mace according to EU. Dooku's lessons on both telekinesis and lightsaber training are mandatory in the Jedi Order, becoming both legendary and a staple of Jedi learning in his own lifetime. He's considered by Yoda to be the Order's greatest student in the Force, most powerful, and the most stressing loss. Mace, who is present, does not even reflect otherwise in his own personal thoughts, but remains silent during this.

When it comes to the Force, Dooku's mastery is glaringly apparent. He's noted for being a master of TK (Excepting of course Master Yoda) and shows a high level of casual Force mastery which few in the series enjoy. He has decades more experience than Mace, and he is one of the few duelists in the PT who actually uses the Force combined with his sword work to devastating effect.

----

Even if Vaapad and Makashi cannot be equally explained away, there are some things I'd like to bring up:

1. Makashi is the ultimate refinement of saber fighting in the history of both the Jedi and the Sith. As such, its undisputed living master of the form in recent times is easily the best duelist by sheer technical capability alone. It is an archaic tradition that almost no one studies; Mace is never noted to have extensive knowledge of it.

2. Vaapad is never explicitly shown to be efficient and effective against sword users. If anything, the mental philosophy behind the form seems to enhance pre-existing talent and skill to a preternatural level. No Vaapad signature moves are noted to exist, and the entire basis of the form we have is rooted in one thing - Mace's own personal views on combat. It exploits his raw Force power (Which he admits he is not certain of at all times), his primal, almost dark inner nature, and his combat expertise. While this makes him one of the most dangerous men alive, it does not qualify him as the best duelist of his era.

3. Additionally, Vaapad's strengths against those who channel the Dark Side is moot; Dooku is not shown to embrace the darkness fully except when fighting Yoda in Dark Rendezvouz and (possibly) Anakin at some point. Because his fighting style relies on precision, balance, and control, he cannot embrace his inner self like Mace or Anakin can to further boost himself.

Looking at it this way, it's not clear to see the advantage Vaapad offers over Makashi. Considering a large bulk of Mace's strengths lie in his 'wild' style and Shatterpoint, it makes the idea of his winning to be on shaky ground. Shatterpoint itself is not a sure-fire guarantee of victory either; it simply (And rarely quickly) shows him a weakness in a given object or person. That weakness is not always physical; part of the weaknesses he exploited in the novel Shatterpoint were mental ones on behalf of his opponents, none of which were truly seasoned Jedi or Sith.

Examining the fight of RotS and accepting the existence of Vaapad here despite its apparent absence according to Nick G and GL, you see the style in motion. One of the most important points to notice about Mace's fighting style (And this can be inferred from AotC as well) is that it's a very direct and non-flashy style. There's no apparent haste, and Mace does not press the attack. It could be that he needs time to assess his foes before making the move, or that his Shatterpoint ability distracts him from the present fight, slowing him down as he searches for a way to exploit the visible weakness.

Some observations:

* Mace's fighting style is not nearly as quick as Dooku's. Dooku's style maintains a better defense than Mace's, and better controls the fight.

For a fine example of Mace's relative lack of adequate defense:

* Mace's "raw power" is nowhere to be seen. He even struggles to overpower Palpatine in a saber lock.

* Mace is an extremely cautious fighter, and doesn't commit his all to bumrushing his opponent. Considering his fighting style is the only thing he's got going for him in this fight, being dominated by Sidious early on illustrates how he could be potentially undone by a swift and efficient Dooku.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Old thread is old.

Pretty much, Mace and Dooku would be one of the closest fights in history according to some. Others seem to apply vague traits like "Mace has more raw power" or "Mace's style is more dangerous" or "Mace is blacker and thus has inferior credit to Dooku". In this entire thread, only Faunus was actively applying objective points to the evidence, despite his own opinion on who should win. Kudos to him.

If you break this fight down to the basic level, you have to understand each fighter's strengths:

Mace's strengths lie in his Vaapad style, which is basically centered around his own primal subconscious and the Shatterpoint ability. Vaapad being a personal improvement on the master form Juyo, implies a broad range of lightsaber skills. Mace is described as being difficult to predict, wild, and yet having a semblance of control over himself just barely. This coupled with Shatterpoint makes him an incredibly dangerous and instinctive fighter.

Dooku's strength lies in his refined, competitive, saber-first fighting style and his incredible power in the Force. The first is pretty self-evident - he is able to fight with Yoda on even ground and -while unable to defeat the Jedi Master - is able to keep up with him in a way no one else can in the series. Dooku defeats the likes of Obi-Wan, Anakin, Assajj, and more using his blades. Dooku has defeated Mace before. It is interesting to note that his apprentice, Qui-Gon, apparently stalemated Mace according to EU. Dooku's lessons on both telekinesis and lightsaber training are mandatory in the Jedi Order, becoming both legendary and a staple of Jedi learning in his own lifetime. He's considered by Yoda to be the Order's greatest student in the Force, most powerful, and the most stressing loss. Mace, who is present, does not even reflect otherwise in his own personal thoughts, but remains silent during this.

When it comes to the Force, Dooku's mastery is glaringly apparent. He's noted for being a master of TK (Excepting of course Master Yoda) and shows a high level of casual Force mastery which few in the series enjoy. He has decades more experience than Mace, and he is one of the few duelists in the PT who actually uses the Force combined with his sword work to devastating effect.

----

Even if Vaapad and Makashi cannot be equally explained away, there are some things I'd like to bring up:

1. Makashi is the ultimate refinement of saber fighting in the history of both the Jedi and the Sith. As such, its undisputed living master of the form in recent times is easily the best duelist by sheer technical capability alone. It is an archaic tradition that almost no one studies; Mace is never noted to have extensive knowledge of it.

2. Vaapad is never explicitly shown to be efficient and effective against sword users. If anything, the mental philosophy behind the form seems to enhance pre-existing talent and skill to a preternatural level. No Vaapad signature moves are noted to exist, and the entire basis of the form we have is rooted in one thing - Mace's own personal views on combat. It exploits his raw Force power (Which he admits he is not certain of at all times), his primal, almost dark inner nature, and his combat expertise. While this makes him one of the most dangerous men alive, it does not qualify him as the best duelist of his era.

3. Additionally, Vaapad's strengths against those who channel the Dark Side is moot; Dooku is not shown to embrace the darkness fully except when fighting Yoda in Dark Rendezvouz and (possibly) Anakin at some point. Because his fighting style relies on precision, balance, and control, he cannot embrace his inner self like Mace or Anakin can to further boost himself.

Looking at it this way, it's not clear to see the advantage Vaapad offers over Makashi. Considering a large bulk of Mace's strengths lie in his 'wild' style and Shatterpoint, it makes the idea of his winning to be on shaky ground. Shatterpoint itself is not a sure-fire guarantee of victory either; it simply (And rarely quickly) shows him a weakness in a given object or person. That weakness is not always physical; part of the weaknesses he exploited in the novel Shatterpoint were mental ones on behalf of his opponents, none of which were truly seasoned Jedi or Sith.

Examining the fight of RotS and accepting the existence of Vaapad here despite its apparent absence according to Nick G and GL, you see the style in motion. One of the most important points to notice about Mace's fighting style (And this can be inferred from AotC as well) is that it's a very direct and non-flashy style. There's no apparent haste, and Mace does not press the attack. It could be that he needs time to assess his foes before making the move, or that his Shatterpoint ability distracts him from the present fight, slowing him down as he searches for a way to exploit the visible weakness.

Some observations:

* Mace's fighting style is not nearly as quick as Dooku's. Dooku's style maintains a better defense than Mace's, and better controls the fight.

For a fine example of Mace's relative lack of adequate defense:

* Mace's "raw power" is nowhere to be seen. He even struggles to overpower Palpatine in a saber lock.

* Mace is an extremely cautious fighter, and doesn't commit his all to bumrushing his opponent. Considering his fighting style is the only thing he's got going for him in this fight, being dominated by Sidious early on illustrates how he could be potentially undone by a swift and efficient Dooku.

Holy Shi/t. What's up Janus? I remember you from this forum's Hey Day. You, Faunus, Nai Fohl, Nebaris, Ox, and Sorgo. lol what up dude?

I concur with your point and I'm astonished at how you picked apart Vapaad..

Good job. lol

I hear people say Dooku was more powerful in the force than Mace, but how? Mace has displayed more impressive tk than Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I hear people say Dooku was more powerful in the force than Mace, but how? Mace has displayed more impressive tk than Dooku.

Wasn't Telekinesis Dooku's speciality as well? Windu however has a mean Force Crush.

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
Wasn't Telekinesis Dooku's speciality as well? Windu however has a mean Force Crush.

Yeah, Dooku was great at it, but Mace did some over the top stuff with it.

Dooku's was more refined, controlled telekinesis. Mace, supposedly, manipulated the direction of thousands of tons of falling rocks, demonstrating more power with it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Dooku's was more refined, controlled telekinesis. Mace, supposedly, manipulated the direction of thousands of tons of falling rocks, demonstrating more power with it.

I thought he just triggered the rock slide(which was going to happen anyway) and rode them down. Did he was use tk on them after the rock slide was triggered?

According to Faunus.

A new tremor from the eruption shook the dirt cliff under his feet. He felt it sag: undercut by the river of lava, the shaking was rapidly destroying the cliff's structural integrity. Any second now it would collapse, sending Mace down into the river, unless he did something first.

The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten beters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, Why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed.

With a subeterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the growing river of lava, organics bursting into flames that the growing landslide instantly smothered as it built itself into a huge wedge shaped berm of raw dirt across the gully; as lava slowly bulged and climbed the upstream face, the down-stream side of the cliff continued to collapse, piling over cooler lava that hardened beneath it, pushing the hotter, more liquid lava into a wave that washed around the steamcrawler's side, welled to the lip of the precipice, then plunged in a rain of fire upon the black jungle far below.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children- and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landlide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

On the roof were two young boys, both about six, and a girl of perhaps eight standard years. They clung to each other, sobbing, terror-filled eyes staring through their tears.

[...][dialogue w/kids][...]

[...][another kid shoots at him][...]

Mace bared his teeth to the night. With the Force, he seized the steamcrawler and yanked it back into place- but a squeal from above grabbed his attention. In seizing the 'crawler he'd lost his Force-hold on the landslide, and the unstable mound of dirt and rock had begun to shift under the little girl and the two boys, sending them sliding down toward the lava.

Mace calmed his hammering heart and extended one hand; he had to close his eyes for a moment to reassert his control on the slide and stabilize it- but its shift had left it less stable than before. He could hold it for the minute or two it would take the girl and boys to reach the relative safety of the outcrop above, not much more.

[he then convinces the last boy to leave the crawler and ends the excursion]

Well, there you are. He manages to manipulate "hundreds of tons of dirt and rock" and then move a steamcrawler (which, according to Wookieepedia, is equipped with turrets and large headlamps and was the basis for the Ground Assault Vehicle; all of this is to say that it is, presumably, a large object), though not at the same time.