GL Hal Jordan vs Silver Surfer

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I know the most obvious instances of Green Lantern rings being drained of energy is when the Manhunters drain them forcefully, but there are plenty of instances from many Green Lantern comic books where the ring's charge is depleted simply from flying, getting smacked around and firing blasts. And there were clearly no Manhunters around. I can provide scans if you want, but I'm pretty sure this is a very self-evident fact.

Green Lantern rings do not contain unlimited charges. Any action, defense or ability that the ring effectuates, drains it of power. I'm not saying they don't have tremendous power, but they clearly do have a limited amount of power. Look, what's the point of recharging and having power levels in the first place if the only thing that could drain it of power was a Manhunter? Do I really have to provide scans?

How is this different from Silver Surfer getting tired?

Certainly here no one is going to argue that the Surfer has infinite energy...will they?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
First, Bedovian was in sector 3. Second, the sectors are shaped like pyramids with the point of the pyramid converging on Oa. Therefore, it's not very appropriate for you to assume that he was several galaxies away. By being in Sector 0, you are essentially at the meeting focal point of all 3600 sectors, hence why Oa is teh center of the universe. So Bedovian could have been very close and still in another sector. It's ambiguous as what distance he was. Certainly a star system away at least considering the different coloring of the backgrounds Bedovian and John Stewart are in. But several galaxies away? I doubt it.

I love it; taking someone to task for making an assumption, and then finishing off your paragraph by yourself making an assumption!

Spectacular!

The truth is, we don't know how far away they were, but given the general sizes of each sector, it is actually MORE appropriate to assume that he was galaxies away.

And GL's used to be the most underrated folks in these forums. But ever since Draco's GL respect thread, they've become the most overrated. 50% of the more impressive feats are pre-crisis and 40% of the others are miscontrued and taken out of context. I'm sorry, but a single GL breaking even with a herald is ridiculous.

Silver Surfer 7/10.

I'd love to see your refutation of the 40% that are miscontrued and taken out of context; given that I created that respect thread, that is.

And how do you explain the fact that GL's remember PC continuity, and that there is an in-crisis reason for them not being effected by the time-wipe?

Originally posted by Desaad
I love it; taking someone to task for making an assumption, and then finishing off your paragraph by yourself making an assumption!

Spectacular!

The truth is, we don't know how far away they were, but given the general sizes of each sector, it is actually MORE appropriate to assume that he was galaxies away.

I'd love to see your refutation of the 40% that are miscontrued and taken out of context; given that I created that respect thread, that is.

And how do you explain the fact that GL's remember PC continuity, and that there is an in-crisis reason for them not being effected by the time-wipe?

Generally, it's posters that miscontrue feats in respect threads, not the respect thread creators themselves. So there's no need to be so defensive. GL's are overrated because people selectively read 40% of those scans, generalize them and/or magnify them and refuse to keep context in mind.

And it's fallacious to use their knowledge of the Crisis as some kind of correlatory blanket immune effect on GL powers. There are also clear instances of pre-Crisis GL's explicitly not being able to do things in pre-Crisis time and then doing such things post-Crisis. How does that reconcile itself? So while the idea may ruffle your feathers as threatening to undo pre-Crisis feats, you can't have it both ways because it illogically cuts the other way and undermines post-Crisis feats.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Recharging is due to the 24 hour time constraint. If they just ran out of juice, then the hours of battle that they had against the sinestro corps would have depleted them. There was enough juice in the rings AFTER the huge fight that the Manhunters still had to drain them. MMMK.

Originally posted by Desaad
How is this different from Silver Surfer getting tired?

Certainly here no one is going to argue that the Surfer has infinite energy...will they?

How? hal gets tired and his ring gets depleted
Sufer gets tired.

I see a difference, it is obvious the rings charge depletes with use, the 24 hour recharge is a safety measure, there are way to many instances of power levels depleting since rebirth and it will factor in when GL's are in a close fight, blame DC, i dont like it, but its only fair to address it and take it into account when versus matches involve them

Originally posted by starlock
How? hal gets tired and his ring gets depleted
Sufer gets tired.

I see a difference, it is obvious the rings charge depletes with use, the 24 hour recharge is a safety measure, there are way to many instances of power levels depleting since rebirth and it will factor in when GL's are in a close fight, blame DC, i dont like it, but its only fair to address it and take it into account when versus matches involve them

👆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]What assumption did I make? That he was at least another star system away? It's clear from the background coloring where Bedovia is hiding that he was not within the immediate area of Sector 0's star system, otherwise the space surrounding him would have been reddish like where Oa and John Stewart was. It's odd that you don't me to assume that they were at least a star system away, because this actually lends a slight credence to your baseless assumption. I suppose he could have been as far away as Pluto is from our Sun. So fine, have it your way.

You make the assumption that he was "probably no more than a few star systems away".

Given the size of a sector, statistically speaking, it is more likely that he was indeed galaxies away.

If you want to believe he was merely a star system away, thats fine, but don't believe you are taking anyone to task for believing Bedovian was Galaxies away -- they two interpretations are equally valid.

Generally, it's posters that miscontrue feats in respect threads, not the respect thread creators themselves. So there's no need to be so defensive.

I don't believe it is defensive to ask for some sort of backup to your claim.

GL's are overrated because people selectively read 40% of those scans, generalize them and/or magnify them and refuse to keep context in mind.

Can you give some sort of example of this occuring in this thread?

And it's fallacious to use their knowledge of the Crisis as some kind of correlatory blanket immune effect on GL powers.

If that were my only point, I would agree; the fact that pre crisis stories are continually referenced in GL's post Crisis reality - GA/GL days, the Broome/Kane days, the Wolfman days, the Wein days, etc - it is clear that his history was not destroyed as it was for Wonder Woman and Superman.

There are also clear instances of pre-Crisis GL's explicitly not being able to do things in pre-Crisis time and then doing such things post-Crisis. How does that reconcile itself?

The same way that Silver Age Marvel characters' like Thor being able to drive back Galactus reconciles itself with them being unable to do so in modern times?

So while the idea may ruffle your feathers as threatening to undo pre-Crisis feats, you can't have it both ways because it illogically cuts the other way and undermines post-Crisis feats.

No more than one writer's opinion of a character's power level (Say, Starlin) undermines another writer's opinion of a character's power level (Say, DeMatteis).

Different showings are different showings, and I make no claims about trying to reconcile all of them into one complete and self consistent character base. But it is clear that, in the case of Hal, those Pre-Crisis stories are in continuity, even if they are retro-fitted for a Post Crisis world (so, for instance, the Superman Hal's power knocked out might have been Post Crisis in nature, despite the fact that the actual showing happened Pre-Crisis).

Originally posted by starlock
How? hal gets tired and his ring gets depleted
Sufer gets tired.

I see a difference, it is obvious the rings charge depletes with use, the 24 hour recharge is a safety measure, there are way to many instances of power levels depleting since rebirth and it will factor in when GL's are in a close fight, blame DC, i dont like it, but its only fair to address it and take it into account when versus matches involve them

I've never seen the ring deplete in a one on one battle, when Hal was fully charged at the beginning of that battle.

He not only beat Sinestro, but then defeated Parallax with one ring charge, and was not showing fatigue at all.

Yeah, Hal can run out of power. But I very much doubt it is going to become a factor in this fight.

And if the argument is that his reliance on the ring somehow gives him heightened weakness to energy absorption, that too is patently false, since the Surfer has been drained of his energy many more times than has Hal, and by more 'standard' energy absorbers.

Originally posted by Desaad
I've never seen the ring deplete in a one on one battle, when Hal was fully charged at the beginning of that battle.

He not only beat Sinestro, but then defeated Parallax with one ring charge, and was not showing fatigue at all.

Yeah, Hal can run out of power. But I very much doubt it is going to become a factor in this fight.

And if the argument is that his reliance on the ring somehow gives him heightened weakness to energy absorption, that too is patently false, since the Surfer has been drained of his energy many more times than has Hal, and by more 'standard' energy absorbers.

Not sure how this goes with what i said but.......should i now go and find all of surfers one on one fights and see if he gets exausted?

Because you doubt it will be a factor means it wont?

Surfer has been drained...sure but has he lost his power from using it in battle and defensive ways? it is shown time after time that displays of his power from flying to using cosmic awareness, cause him to have his power levels to get lower and lower with each use? are there bubbles of narrarator and or from the surfer that keeps track of his current power level?

With an energy and matter manipulator like surfer, i think it will be a factor.

Originally posted by Desaad
You make the assumption that he was "probably no more than a few star systems away".

Given the size of a sector, statistically speaking, it is more likely that he was indeed galaxies away.

If you want to believe he was merely a star system away, thats fine, but don't believe you are taking anyone to task for believing Bedovian was Galaxies away -- they two interpretations are equally valid.

And your interpretation can be questioned far more then my own. For Bedovian and John Stewart to snipe at each other's locations, they'd have to see each other. Light travels at a constant rate. Therefore, if they are too far from each other, what they would be seeing is what would have happened many ages ago. The same way that what we see in the night sky, is more likely the way a star has appeared thousands if not millions of years ago since light can only travel so fast. It's more proper to assume that they are not too far apart since they are able to see each other near real-time and are able to shoot at each other with beams at near real-time. The scan below demonstrates what I'm talking about.

Here, Hal is approximately a light-minute away from his opponent. He had shot him with an attack and when he goes to see if he shot him he uses a GL telescope construct. But he knows the limitations of physics. He realizes that what he is seeing is what happened a minute ago (before he fired his attack), and therefore he can't see what happened. This helps bring context to the sniping contest between Bedovian and John Stewart. John Stewart used a GL sniping scope construct to pinpoint Bedovian as well. They shouldn't be galaxies apart or hundreds of light years apart because they can snipe and see each other at or near real-time:

Originally posted by Desaad
If that were my only point, I would agree; the fact that pre crisis stories are continually referenced in GL's post Crisis reality - GA/GL days, the Broome/Kane days, the Wolfman days, the Wein days, etc - it is clear that his history was not destroyed as it was for Wonder Woman and Superman.

The same way that Silver Age Marvel characters' like Thor being able to drive back Galactus reconciles itself with them being unable to do so in modern times?

No more than one writer's opinion of a character's power level (Say, Starlin) undermines another writer's opinion of a character's power level (Say, DeMatteis).

Different showings are different showings, and I make no claims about trying to reconcile all of them into one complete and self consistent character base. But it is clear that, in the case of Hal, those Pre-Crisis stories are in continuity, even if they are retro-fitted for a Post Crisis world (so, for instance, the Superman Hal's power knocked out might have been Post Crisis in nature, despite the fact that the actual showing happened Pre-Crisis).

Retrofitting is fine, especially if post-Crisis feats lend credence to pre-Crisis feats. And retrofitting is ok, if post-Crisis feats don't necessarily contradict pre-Crisis feats. Yea, go ahead and hold onto them if you want. But when post-Crisis contradicts or weakens the credence of pre-Crisis, then you don't retrofit... you retcon. That was the point of the Crisis.

Originally posted by starlock
Not sure how this goes with what i said but.......should i now go and find all of surfers one on one fights and see if he gets exausted?

Because you doubt it will be a factor means it wont?

Surfer has been drained...sure but has he lost his power from using it in battle and defensive ways? it is shown time after time that displays of his power from flying to using cosmic awareness, cause him to have his power levels to get lower and lower with each use? are there bubbles of narrarator and or from the surfer that keeps track of his current power level?

With an energy and matter manipulator like surfer, i think it will be a factor.

Silver Surfer 7/10.

Originally posted by starlock
[B]Not sure how this goes with what i said but.......should i now go and find all of surfers one on one fights and see if he gets exausted?

If that gets your blood pumping, why not?

Because you doubt it will be a factor means it wont?

No, because you can't prove it will be a factor means it won't.

Surfer has been drained...sure but has he lost his power from using it in battle and defensive ways? it is shown time after time that displays of his power from flying to using cosmic awareness, cause him to have his power levels to get lower and lower with each use?

In the sense that his energy isn't inexhaustible, yes. In the sense that he has shown tiredness, say, travelling through time even with the added energy of Nova, yes.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't understand how you could have misread not just one, but two of posts. I said that Bedovian is a star system away at least. I never said he could only be a star system away. So either you've just misread both my posts or are twisting my words. You tell us which it is.

Don't be ridiculous.

Your implication is that somehow the feat is less impressive because we don't know exactly how far away Bedovian was when he was sniping, and then go on to talk about how you "doubt" that Bedovian could be several galaxies away.

You have no more basis to doubt that he is several galaxies away than anyone does to SAY he was several galaxies away. LESS so, given the size of sectors.

Try to squirm out of it all you want, but you are making baseless assumptions.

And your interpretation can be questioned far more then my own. For Bedovian and John Stewart to snipe at each other's locations, they'd have to see each other. Light travels at a constant rate. Therefore, if they are too far from each other, what they would be seeing is what would have happened many ages ago. The same way that what we see in the night sky, is more likely the way a star has appeared thousands if not millions of years ago since light can only travel so fast. It's more proper to assume that they are not too far apart since they are able to see each other near real-time and are able to shoot at each other with beams at near real-time. The scan below demonstrates what I'm talking about.

The rings regularly allow faster than light travel. The base of your theory would also negate the idea that Bedovian could be at Pluto, or really anywhere but just beyond earth, given the speed at which Jon and Bedovian were blasting each other.

It is quite OBVIOUS that we are dealing with faster than light warfare, here, at least in regards to the speeds of their beams and their scopes' ability to see.

Here, Hal is approximately a light-minute away from his opponent. He had shot him with an attack and when he goes to see if he shot him he uses a GL telescope construct. But he knows the limitations of physics. He realizes that what he is seeing is what happened a minute ago (before he fired his attack), and therefore he can't see what happened. This helps bring context to the sniping contest between Bedovian and John Stewart. John Stewart used a GL sniping scope construct to pinpoint Bedovian as well. They shouldn't be galaxies apart or hundreds of light years apart because they can snipe and see each other at or near real-time:

Again, your light-speed theory doesn't hold up when examining the actual issue, try desperately as you might to hide behind it.

Again, you've made baseless assumptions; please stop.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]Retro-fitting requires reconciliation. And since we are in post-Crisis days, pre-Crisis feats must reconcile themselves with how post-Crisis characters react in similar situations. Pre-Crisis Superman in his younger days used to sneeze galaxies away, post-Crisis Superman in adult form clearly can't do that. Pre-Crisis GL rookie used to close black holes with ease. Post-Crisis GL rookies like Vath, Isamot, Natu and several others couldn't resist being overcome by black holes.

Because rookies are all the same level? Because all writers have the same concept for how powerful a Green Lantern is?

In one issue, the Silver Surfer is more than capable of travelling back in time under his own power. In another, he gets exhausted from doing the same with the help of Nova.

Should we now examine all the feats from the previous era and cast them out? After all, it seems we have two conflicting showings, doesn't it?

Or is it possible that maybe - just maybe - different writers have different opinions on the power levels of these characters, and that these things naturally vary?

Originally posted by Desaad
Don't be ridiculous.

Your implication is that somehow the feat is less impressive because we don't know exactly how far away Bedovian was when he was sniping, and then go on to talk about how you "doubt" that Bedovian could be several galaxies away.

You have no more basis to doubt that he is several galaxies away than anyone does to SAY he was several galaxies away. LESS so, given the size of sectors.

Try to squirm out of it all you want, but you are making baseless assumptions.

AND even failing that theory. The scan details that Hal was able to use his ring simply to will it's way to its target even though he couldn't see him. But instead of going into the analysis and hypothesis that I just gave to support your theory, OR using the scan itself as support, you've instead just completely engaged in conclusory assumptions of your position. So you calling my assumption baseless, when I've provided reasoning and scans and support for my position is just downright ignorant. And I hope that my demonstration of reasoning for your position highlights that ignorance, because you've completely forgone supporting it yourself and engaged in the most basest of criticisms.

Originally posted by Desaad
The rings regularly allow faster than light travel. The base of your theory would also negate the idea that Bedovian could be at Pluto, or really anywhere but just beyond earth, given the speed at which Jon and Bedovian were blasting each other.

It is quite OBVIOUS that we are dealing with faster than light warfare, here, at least in regards to the speeds of their beams and their scopes' ability to see.

Again, your light-speed theory doesn't hold up when examining the actual issue, try desperately as you might to hide behind it.

Again, you've made baseless assumptions; please stop.

My arguments and reasoning are clearer and have on-panel support. Your arguments are just mere criticism laced with incredulity that your understanding of a comic could be questioned. Sorry, buddy. On-panel evidence speaks volumes. You go ahead and show me a GL scan where those physics are clearly annulled and I'll concede that our interpretations could be equally valid. Until then, for you to characterize my position as an "assumption" and as "baseless," when I just reasoned them from every single angle and provided you with clear, concrete proof from a Green Lantern comic itself goes past mere ignorance, it whole heartedly lends itself into the category of being asinine.

Silver Surfer 7/10.

EDIT: Bah, forgot the scan. Who cares, for people who are interested, it's up about three or four posts.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What assumption did I make? That he was at least another star system away? It's clear from the background coloring where Bedovia is hiding that he was not within the immediate area of Sector 0's star system, otherwise the space surrounding him would have been reddish like where Oa and John Stewart was. It's odd that you don't me to assume that they were at least a star system away, because this actually lends a slight credence to your baseless assumption. I suppose he could have been as far away as Pluto is from our Sun. So fine, have it your way.

Generally, it's posters that miscontrue feats in respect threads, not the respect thread creators themselves. So there's no need to be so defensive. GL's are overrated because people selectively read 40% of those scans, generalize them and/or magnify them and refuse to keep context in mind.

And it's fallacious to use their knowledge of the Crisis as some kind of correlatory blanket immune effect on GL powers. There are also clear instances of pre-Crisis GL's explicitly not being able to do things in pre-Crisis time and then doing such things post-Crisis. How does that reconcile itself? So while the idea may ruffle your feathers as threatening to undo pre-Crisis feats, you can't have it both ways because it illogically cuts the other way and undermines post-Crisis feats.
Err. No, every single thing the ring does drains the ring of power. One clear instance off the top of my head is the first time Sinestro whacks Hal Jordan in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Hal says, "Damn." He picks himself up and then he asks his ring for a power check and the ring replies 98.1% or something close to that. After one blow by Sinestro. Clearly no Manhunters sucking power dry at that time.

you do know that a space sector is indeed several galaxies. Krypton and Earth are in the same sector 2814 and they aren't even in the same galaxy.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
you do know that a space sector is indeed several galaxies. Krypton and Earth are in the same sector 2814 and they aren't even in the same galaxy.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
First, Bedovian was in sector 3. Second, the sectors are shaped like pyramids with the point of the pyramid converging on Oa. Therefore, it's not very appropriate for you to assume that he was several galaxies away. By being in Sector 0, you are essentially at the meeting focal point of all 3600 sectors, hence why Oa is teh center of the universe. So Bedovian could have been very close and still in another sector. It's ambiguous as what distance he was. Certainly a star system away at least considering the different coloring of the backgrounds Bedovian and John Stewart are in. But several galaxies away? I doubt it.

Close, but Surfer takes this due to energy draining and absorbtion capabilities, speed and strength amping, and a huge endurance edge.

Draw.

hmmm its close but I give it to Jordan, he can stop time and just knock SS out during that time.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
hmmm its close but I give it to Jordan, he can stop time and just knock SS out during that time.

Norin can go back in time (timetravel) 😬