I personally believe the punishment has been put forth.
God has left us, left us in this place to our own devices, surely that would be the worst punishment we could receive.
Afterall, if Gods world is Just , Right, Fair and filled with Compassion and Forgiveness..
then what does a God-less World look like.
I think we already know the answer to that question, we're in one!
-2 cents-
Originally posted by Juk3n
I personally believe the punishment has been put forth.God has left us, left us in this place to our own devices, surely that would be the worst punishment we could receive.
Afterall, if Gods world is Just , Right, Fair and filled with Compassion and Forgiveness..
then what does a God-less World look like.I think we already know the answer to that question, we're in one!
-2 cents-
So, when times are good that mean that god is there with you, and when times are bad, that mean god has left you? That sounds like a fair weather friend to me.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A fair weather friend is with you when things are good.His sentiment is the converse: Things are good when God is with you.
And I turned it on it's head on purpose. Sometimes when you flip things over, you get a different perspective.
From my point of view, things are always good or bad because of humans, and never because of a god.
Originally posted by Juk3n
I personally believe the punishment has been put forth.God has left us, left us in this place to our own devices, surely that would be the worst punishment we could receive.
Afterall, if Gods world is Just , Right, Fair and filled with Compassion and Forgiveness..
then what does a God-less World look like.I think we already know the answer to that question, we're in one!
-2 cents-
God hasn't left us, WE left God.
Originally posted by Kapton JACif your god is the catholic god, god created humans knowing they would betray him. he had prior knowledge. no choice involved. it was going to happen. he forsaw it. and NOTHING anyone can do can change that if hes real.
God hasn't left us, WE left God.
if you have omniscience, free will isnt really free. because actions are determined. once they are determined you are set to do them. forever. its not probability with complete knowledge, only fact
Originally posted by chickenlover98
if your god is the catholic god, god created humans knowing they would betray him. he had prior knowledge. no choice involved. it was going to happen. he forsaw it. and NOTHING anyone can do can change that if hes real.if you have omniscience, free will isnt really free. because actions are determined. once they are determined you are set to do them. forever. its not probability with complete knowledge, only fact
You have logical fallacy in this argument. First of all you are assuming that a choice without influence can still not be a free choice, this is logically flawed by the very definition of freedom. Second, you are limiting God's omniscience by saying that He cannot know the outcome of perfectly free choices. For every choice there are billions of tangential outcomes, God knows the actual as opposed to the tangential outcome. Think of this example: I can know that you will walk over to a bench and sit down. When you go to that bench you make a completely free choice to sit down. I happen to know the actual outcome rather than the tangential one, which means that you made a completely, influence-free, free choice. Also, even if we take this all for granted, that there is no free choice etcetera, you then have to explain why there is a Hell, sin, or evil for that matter. In Timothy 2: 3-4,
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior , 4Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ."So why then does sin or damnation occur if God knows and "predestines" all outcomes, for he wants ALL to be saved.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
You have logical fallacy in this argument. First of all you are assuming that a choice without influence can still not be a free choice, this is logically flawed by the very definition of freedom. Second, you are limiting God's omniscience by saying that He cannot know the outcome of perfectly free choices. For every choice there are billions of tangential outcomes, God knows the actual as opposed to the tangential outcome. Think of this example: I can know that you will walk over to a bench and sit down. When you go to that bench you make a completely free choice to sit down. I happen to know the actual outcome rather than the tangential one, which means that you made a completely, influence-free, free choice. Also, even if we take this all for granted, that there is no free choice etcetera, you then have to explain why there is a Hell, sin, or evil for that matter. In Timothy 2: 3-4,
So why then does sin or damnation occur if God knows and "predestines" all outcomes, for he wants ALL to be saved.
the fallacy in your argument is the presumption that you can KNOW uninfluenced outcomes. you KNOW things by knowing there cause, and you know things/event in the future PERFECTLY by knowing their causes PERFECTLY. if there are NO causes/influences{as you stated} then god can NOT know. if he KNOWS it to be true, then by definition, the influences which caused the event exist to begin with. you are basing your assumption on the oppinion that human conciousness is exempt from the causal influences in their surrounding which is false to begin with. also, without INFLUENCE, there wont be much of a choice to make now would there as everything from consequences to historical context IS an influence. with the complete absence of influences, there would be nothing to choose FROM or make a choice ABOUT as things which are made a choice between are themselves influential in the choice being made. basically, without influences there is no inclination to choose anything.
as for the last part, who says there is a hell/heaven or god for that matter? scriptures are never proven accurate or even right, quite the contrary. heaven and hell have never been prove to exist. infact, the above is an argument AGAINST the very existance of these things.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the fallacy in your argument is the presumption that you can KNOW uninfluenced outcomes. you KNOW things by knowing there cause, and you know things/event in the future PERFECTLY by knowing their causes PERFECTLY. if there are NO causes/influences{as you stated} then god can NOT know. if he KNOWS it to be true, then by definition, the influences which caused the event exist to begin with. you are basing your assumption on the oppinion that human conciousness is exempt from the causal influences in their surrounding which is false to begin with. also, without INFLUENCE, there wont be much of a choice to make now would there as everything from consequences to historical context IS an influence. with the complete absence of influences, there would be nothing to choose FROM or make a choice ABOUT as things which are made a choice between are themselves influential in the choice being made. basically, without influences there is no inclination to choose anything.as for the last part, who says there is a hell/heaven or god for that matter? scriptures are never proven accurate or even right, quite the contrary. heaven and hell have never been prove to exist. infact, the above is an argument AGAINST the very existance of these things.
Though it isn't proven doesn't mean it isn't true. There are several things that are widly accepted that have no actual PROOF, only theroies and conjecture, and yet they are not only widly accepted but is taught as un-disputable fact.
^yes, but most of those things have sever enough consequences as the beleif in god. and none of those things{atleast in logical circles} are actually DISPROVEN like the traditional conceptions of god and scritpures are.
also, if you are talking about scientific theories like evolution etc. there is a lot of EVIDENCE pointing towards them being true and they are never taught as ultimate perfect truth either, all scientists accept that there cud be modifications in the theory, but theres no reason to beleive{and ever reason to disbelieve} that these modifications wud come from mystical beings liek god. also, all things in science are theories, not facts. but it isnt theory as used in general language, it is as near to fact as it gets{for many accepted theories} based on evidence, but is called a theory because unlike normal language and faith, science accepts that nuthing can be claimed to be knwon with 100% accuracay. what you are refrring to are HYPOTHESIS, whcih are different from THEORIES.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the fallacy in your argument is the presumption that you can KNOW uninfluenced outcomes. you KNOW things by knowing there cause, and you know things/event in the future PERFECTLY by knowing their causes PERFECTLY. if there are NO causes/influences{as you stated} then god can NOT know. if he KNOWS it to be true, then by definition, the influences which caused the event exist to begin with. you are basing your assumption on the oppinion that human conciousness is exempt from the causal influences in their surrounding which is false to begin with. also, without INFLUENCE, there wont be much of a choice to make now would there as everything from consequences to historical context IS an influence. with the complete absence of influences, there would be nothing to choose FROM or make a choice ABOUT as things which are made a choice between are themselves influential in the choice being made. basically, without influences there is no inclination to choose anything.as for the last part, who says there is a hell/heaven or god for that matter? scriptures are never proven accurate or even right, quite the contrary. heaven and hell have never been prove to exist. infact, the above is an argument AGAINST the very existance of these things.
Originally posted by chickenlover98
if your god is the catholic god, god created humans knowing they would betray him. he had prior knowledge. no choice involved. it was going to happen. he forsaw it. and NOTHING anyone can do can change that if hes real.
That is what I was responding to, and that is why I used the Bible, leonheart. When one insults the Lord, they better have something massive to make their point on. And on the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden; God allowed humans to betray Him so that free will could exist. It makes a very interesting point, God valued freedom so much, that He allowed evil and dissidence from Him.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^yes, but most of those things have sever enough consequences as the beleif in god. and none of those things{atleast in logical circles} are actually DISPROVEN like the traditional conceptions of god and scritpures are.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
also, if you are talking about scientific theories like evolution etc. there is a lot of EVIDENCE pointing towards them being true and they are never taught as ultimate perfect truth either, all scientists accept that there cud be modifications in the theory, but theres no reason to beleive{and ever reason to disbelieve} that these modifications wud come from mystical beings liek god.