JA Trilogy Luke vs RoT Bane

Most biased Sidious fanboy/s? Fair enough. Seeing as you're a perfectly objective person who has a very clear opinion of Bane's level of power. Btw, how the hell does Sidious relate to this argument? I've said Luke > Bane. Nothing that has to do with Sidious.

Most of the points were answered by tulakhordpwns, but yeah... I never said NJO Luke is 'unstoppable', or 'unbeatable'; simply that he is likely the strongest being to ever grace Star Wars; his most impressive abilities being his force attunemenet, and his capacity to slip into a 'trance', as seen in his fight against Sidious and in Yuuzhan Vong butcher, allowing him to become essentially 'one' with the force despite not being dead; regardless of what you might say. Sure, a few people could put up a fight against him- particularly in sabers only.

However, I'm not knowledgable enough on this subject, so I will quit debating on this. Obiviously, people like tulakhordpwns are much better informed to handle such a debate.

And tulak, btw, Nebaris aka HomoSuperior thinks that Sion is the most powerful being in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

And tulak, btw, Nebaris aka HomoSuperior thinks that Sion is the most powerful being in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Gideon
I believe it was either Dark Rendezvous or Labyrinth of Evil. Or perhaps I'm wrong alltogether, and if proven so, will concede.

But I guess it does help your case to randomly assert "LOLZ SITHARY > CHOZUN ONE!!1!" so I suppose I'll permit you to do so.

'moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped'-POD p.g. 205

Its not in LoE; I just read it.
It could be in Dark Rendezvous; I've not read it yet.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
I am not sure why you see this as huge evidence of Bane's power, it is hardly even more impressive than what Dorsk 81 did, just channel the force.

That would be like saying Nihilus dragging a entire fleet out of a gravity well, and Maul Force pushing padawan Obi-Wan are both just telekinesis, and that neither of the two are especially more impressive than the other one because of that.

It's the magnitude of energy that Bane channelled, and the methods he used in doing so that make the display vastly impressive, and it's completely different than what Dorsk 81 did, and much more impressive.

1. The energy that Bane channeled was described as being able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan, whereas the power than Dorsk81 channelled can only be said to have been adequate in pushing back a fleet of starships.

2. While the members of the BoD did [in part] willingly give Bane their power, it was done so in the form of lethal Force lightning, and Bane was forced to absorb the energy into multiple parts of his body, while simultaneously draining them of their power as well (hence the [in part]). Dorsk 81 displayed no ability whatsoever in receiving the power of the other Jedi, but rather they focused their power through him.

3. Whilst doing the above, Bane was also able to contain the energy within him, and presumably protect himself internally from it. Again, no such display from Dorsk 81.

4. After having done all of the above, Bane was able to still reach out with the Force, and redirect the contained energy across the entire Planet. Dorsk 81 only displayed the ability to focus his collective power on a single fleet.

5. Bane displayed little effort throughout the entire ritual, and was in perfect condition at the end of it, whereas the Jedi and Dorsk 81's combined attack ended up costing the clone's life.

As can be seen, the mastery and power Bane displayed in the ritual was miles more impressive than that of Dorsk 81, and in its own right, one of the greatest displays of Force Use there's ever been in the entire recorded history of the Star Wars Universe.

Well, Bane gets completely outclassed by someone from his era (Sirak). Of course, no one would say that Sirak is the most powerful of the sith era. Bane becomes much more powerful, later defeats Sirak, and fights many intense battles against formidable opponents, all of which shows Bane to be extremely powerful. Luke's situation is very similar.

The difference is that when Sirak had kicked his ass that one time, Bane had only been training for about a year, didn't yet fully understand the true nature of the dark side and thus was not tapping into his full potential, and had been learning under an extremely poor knowledge base. If we're using his Ro2 incarnation as a comparison, he had yet to receive over ten more years of training and experience, he had yet to receive the benefits of Sith Magic that he would from the holocrons of Darth Revan and Freedon Nadd, and had yet to receive the many benefits of the Orbalisk armour.

Luke on the other hand had been training for about 30 years (even longer by the time he fought UnuThul), with most of that time in near constant conflict.

Luke had tapped into far more of his potential than Bane had, and shows little improvement to suggest that he would fare better than he had at any later incarnations.

Some remarks on your list...
2) I believe that Nyax is very underestimated. Ahead of Luke in his prime though, no. Some things to remember: You mention how Nyax only fell to a surprise attack. Having the element of surprise is very important in using a force attack.

It can prove to be an extremely huge advantage in some situations, but when you completely outclass your opponent like Nyax did Luke, it's quite unnecessary.

Think of how easily Luke owns Jacen in Inferno when he attacks without lifting a finger or giving Jacen any time to put up a resistance. Yet he is not able to do this later in the book when Jacen is prepared, despite Luke seeing his son tortured. Think of how Luke blocks Unuthul's killik powered force push in the Swarm War, yet is easily pushed by Jacen in Inferno, because Luke thinks Jacen will use lightning.

Most of this is pretty irrelevant, though about Luke blocking UnuThul's force push at the end of the Dark Nest crisis, that was only after an extremely large proportion of Killiks (the people who UnuThul drew his power from) had been killed in the war. Before that point, Unuthul had been quite capable of completely mind dominating Luke, which indicates that he was far more powerful than the Jedi Grandmaster at the point in question.

It is no different in this instance. Luke does not know Nyax's mind control attack is coming, so he is controlled.

Not knowing that a specific attack is coming doesn't mean that Luke wouldn't have been putting up a defence for any attack in general, which is what he most certainly would have been doing, being in a battle situation against a visible enemy.

Once Luke knows that Nyax has this trick, Nyax is unable to control him, as Luke demonstrates in their battle.

Where's the proof that he was completely unable to do it again. Nyax was extremely arrogant, and downright irrational at times, it was quite clear that he simply wanted to toy with the party rather than disable them in a heartbeat as he was quite capable of doing.

Also, Nyax is really stupid. He shows this by ignoring the attack that Tahiri makes on him, despite feeling the pain it causes him. Finally, Luke is far from his prime at this point. He still has many more battles with the vong, killiks, and the sith to fight.

Substantiate the idea that he was far from his prime, because he was pretty far into his learning curve by that point, and shows little demonstration of improvement even by LotF, his latest incarnation. Certainly not enough that would suggest he would fare any better than where he failed so miserable not that much longer before.

3) I don't remember Unuthul ever doing anything near what Nyax did. I remember him trying to influence Luke, but not gaining complete control (I might be misremembering).

No, he actually did.

Regardless, Luke demonstrates that he is more powerful in his battle with Unuthul.

Only after UnuThul's source of power had been vastly diminished.

And I don't believe in judging character's power on how they perform while using the force potential of others. Otherwise, even Dorsk 81 would be up there with Bane, because he force pushed an entire fleet.

Already addressed.

Finally, why Nihilus and Sion? I've already written a huge post, so I won't go into detail about how I think Luke is better, but why do you think they are so powerful?

I can understand why you might question Sion, but Nihilus? Being able to completely demolish the inhabitants of an entire planet in a pretty quick and effortless way (as described in Unseen, Unheard) is one of the greatest displays of Force power there's ever been in the entire mythos, and it's certainly above anything displayed by Luke, and this was something Nihilus was capable of while weak and "hungry." Then of course there's the entire concept behind Nihilus being so powerful that he no longer perceived the Universe like regular people do, as well as how people around him were simply bent to his will and had their life drained, purely because of how powerful his presence was. It's strongly implied that he reached a level of power that he was no longer simply a being, but rather a cosmic force of nature. Along with Zonama Sekot and Yuuzhan'tar, he's among the most powerful Force Users ever, and it's not even debatable whether someone like Luke could be above him.

As for Sion, he's virtually invincible, and the sheer fact that he can cheat death, which no one else has been able to do indicates that he had an extraordinarily high level of power. He also demonstrated extreme speed in close combat, being able to land a hit on a Force User of the extremely high calibre of Kreia with one attack. Fighting without the need of self preservation would also make him extremely dangerous and unorthodox in close combat, and putting everything into perspective, I'd say he definitely deserves to be placed among the others as being more powerful than Luke, or at least more effective in close combat.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Most biased Sidious fanboy/s? Fair enough. Seeing as you're a perfectly objective person who has a very clear opinion of Bane's level of power. Btw, how the [b]hell does Sidious relate to this argument? I've said Luke > Bane. Nothing that has to do with Sidious.

Most of the points were answered by tulakhordpwns, but yeah... I never said NJO Luke is 'unstoppable', or 'unbeatable'; simply that he is likely the strongest being to ever grace Star Wars; his most impressive abilities being his force attunemenet, and his capacity to slip into a 'trance', as seen in his fight against Sidious and in Yuuzhan Vong butcher, allowing him to become essentially 'one' with the force despite not being dead; regardless of what you might say. Sure, a few people could put up a fight against him- particularly in sabers only.

However, I'm not knowledgable enough on this subject, so I will quit debating on this. Obiviously, people like tulakhordpwns are much better informed to handle such a debate.

And tulak, btw, Nebaris aka HomoSuperior thinks that Sion is the most powerful being in Star Wars. [/B]

Again, he didn't become "one with the Force" in his final battle against the Yuuzhan Vong, and there's no proof whatsoever that there is such a thing as a "capacity" for it. It's quite obviously everything to do with the will of the Force, and is, as I said, a completely anomalous occurrence, making it irrelevant, as you cannot claim with any sense of certainty that he might slip into such a trance against any given opponent, much like he didn't do so against any opponent with the exception of Sidious.

Give it up Noobaris.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
I can understand why you might question Sion, but Nihilus? Being able to completely demolish the inhabitants of an entire planet in a pretty quick and effortless way (as described in Unseen, Unheard) is one of the greatest displays of Force power there's ever been in the entire mythos, and it's certainly above anything displayed by Luke, and this was something Nihilus was capable of while weak and "hungry." Then of course there's the entire concept behind Nihilus being so powerful that he no longer perceived the Universe like regular people do, as well as how people around him were simply bent to his will and had their life drained, purely because of how powerful his presence was. It's strongly implied that he reached a level of power that he was no longer simply a being, but rather a cosmic force of nature. Along with Zonama Sekot and Yuuzhan'tar, he's among the most powerful Force Users ever, and it's not even debatable whether someone like Luke could be above him.

Err... lol, none of us denied that Nihilus is uber and all, but his feat of ravaging a planet is not without predecent nor does it make him the most powerful person in history; Sidious did the same with his force storms, said force storms being capable of ravaging planets (according to the Dark Side Sourcebook), obliterating entire fleets and was called possibly the most powerful force power in history. Now then, that doesn't make Sidious the most powerful force user in history, but as you see; Nihilus's technique really isn't 'unmatched'.

According to Kreia, Nihilus had simply grown drunk on power and basically went insane from it; in fact, she said that his hunger was not power, but rather a primal thing which controlled him; he had no control over his power, nor did he have any sort of mastery. He became an animal.

Also, you'll have to prove that Nihilus, other than his weird drain, will be capable of doing anything to Luke, Sidious, Bane, or the likes in combat; and as you see, this drain stuff can probably be blocked. See, Nihilus had displayed the ability to corrupt people around him and drain entire planets. Other than that- absolutely nothing. He was pretty much owned in saber combat when he fought, nor is there any indication of his other techniques being particularly powerful. Yeah. Being an Ancient Sith and possessing a powerful technique that's not really elaborated upon or told in great detail doesn't make you all-powerful.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
As for Sion, he's virtually invincible, and the sheer fact that he can cheat death, which no one else has been able to do indicates that he had an extraordinarily high level of power. He also demonstrated extreme speed in close combat, being able to land a hit on a Force User of the extremely high calibre of Kreia with one attack. Fighting without the need of self preservation would also make him extremely dangerous and unorthodox in close combat, and putting everything into perspective, I'd say he definitely deserves to be placed among the others as being more powerful than Luke, or at least more effective in close combat.

I think that this is even more ridiculous than your claim about Nihilus being the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Sion? Wtf? The guy had done absolutely nothing impressive; sure, he was capable of cheating death- but how the hell can he survive against significantly faster, more potent, and more skilled duelists like Luke, Sidious, and Bane? He has absolutely no chance, seeing as he'll be decapacitated in the space of seconds. Also, what would prevent him from being disintergrated by lightning or be severed from the force? The force keeps him together. Losing it will cause him to die.

ok shut up. I's been established bane wins this pages back. Noobaris should be bitchslapped.... again...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err... lol, none of us denied that Nihilus is uber and all, but his feat of ravaging a planet is not without predecent nor does it make him the most powerful person in history; Sidious did the same with his force storms, said force storms being capable of ravaging planets (according to the Dark Side Sourcebook), obliterating entire fleets and was called possibly the most powerful force power in history. Now then, that doesn't make Sidious the most powerful force user in history, but as you see; Nihilus's technique really isn't 'unmatched'.

Actually, Sidious' Force Storms could only ravage the surface of planets, and were ritualistic in nature and not representative of Sidious' regular level of ability (not that all rituals are the same, just that with the Force Storms, there are a certain number of actions involved that demand minimal amounts of power, that combine together and cause a chain reaction that summons a wormhole).

According to Kreia, Nihilus had simply grown drunk on power and basically went insane from it; in fact, she said that his hunger was not power, but rather a primal thing which controlled him; he had no control over his power, nor did he have any sort of mastery. He became an animal.

No, he had no control over his hunger, and in result, used his draining powers to cause as much death as he could to feed his hunger. His mastery of his powers itself however was clearly immense, considering how he could focus it on an entire planet (Katarr) or alternatively a single being (Exile), as well as use it simultaneously with force lightning and telekinesis. All of those actions are quite clearly indicative of control over his power: the planetwide range indicates an extremely high level of mastery, as does being able to use it simultaneously with two other powers, and the fact that he can apply his drain to one opponent at least proves that he doesn't compeltely lack control like you were trying to argue. Also, Kreia called his technique the greatest of all the Ancient Sith teachings, and labelled Nihilus an outright master of it.

Also, you'll have to prove that Nihilus, other than his weird drain, will be capable of doing anything to Luke, Sidious, Bane, or the likes in combat; and as you see, this drain stuff can probably be blocked. See, Nihilus had displayed the ability to corrupt people around him and drain entire planets. Other than that- absolutely nothing.

His drain is testament to his power, and he was also able to pull an entire fleet of starships out of a gravity well.

Along with his cosmic awareness (which apparently only surfaces with people who have reached a certain level of power), and the passive effect his mere presence had, and he's quite clearly beyond any Force user, with, again, the exception of the two living planets.

He was pretty much owned in saber combat when he fought, nor is there any indication of his other techniques being particularly powerful. Yeah. Being an Ancient Sith and possessing a powerful technique that's not really elaborated upon or told in great detail doesn't make you all-powerful.

1. When he fought the exile and his party, he was already at an extremely low level of power (as evident by his need to feed off of Telos), yet he was still quite capable of stunning all three of them at the same time (including one exceptionally powerful Force user, and another [not necesarily exceptionally powerful, but Force User nonetheless]), and could have ended the fight there and then.

2. Instead, he chose to try and drain the Exile, another wound in the force, and thus was even further weakened. Yet, he was still able to fight the party and was so dominant that Visas believed that he was still too powerful for them to defeat, and it may have even taken her sacrifice to finally defeat him.

So as can be seen, he was hardly "owned," and under the circumstance, was vastly weakenned.

As for the ability, it was considered the greatest of all the Sith teachnings, and Nihilus was an absolute master of it (as stated by Kreia), and like with everything else he displays, it's all testament to extraordinary ability. As much as you may not like it, Nihilus is simply far above the likes of Luke Skywalker and Sidious in ability, it's no contest really.

I think that this is even more ridiculous than your claim about Nihilus being the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Sion? Wtf? The guy had done absolutely nothing impressive; sure, he was capable of cheating death-

Something completely unprecedented, and indicative of extreme power.

but how the hell can he survive against significantly faster, more potent, and more skilled duelists like Luke, Sidious, and Bane?

Provide proof for any of that, or stop talking.

He has absolutely no chance, seeing as he'll be decapacitated in the space of seconds.

Prove that that can even happen. The exile's lightsaber was completely ineffective against him, and it was made quite clear that he simply couldn't be killed by her under normal circumstances.

Also, what would prevent him from being disintergrated by lightning or be severed from the force? The force keeps him together. Losing it will cause him to die.

He was able to get right on up after receiving a full onslaught of lightning, telekinesis, and force drain (which targets one's life force and force connection)... He can quite clearly receive a fvck load of damage, and also can quite clearly adequately defend himself against attacks that target his Force connection.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Actually, Sidious' Force Storms could only ravage the surface of planets, and were ritualistic in nature and not representative of Sidious' regular level of ability (not that all rituals are the same, just that with the Force Storms, there are a certain number of actions involved that demand minimal amounts of power, that combine together and cause a chain reaction that summons a wormhole).

This gross misrepresentation has gone on long enough, Nebaris, and it's time that we start putting things back into proper perspective. According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Force Storms are the most destructive Force technique in existence and Palpatine can use it to "demolish fleets" and "tear the surfaces off of worlds". And the fact remains that Palpatine remains the only Force sensitive within the whole of canon with the power to summon and control one; the whole scenario with Freedon Nadd is irrelevant, because he only has "knowledge" of the Force Storm -- which does not imply or state mastery of it. Your constant fellating of how Darth Bane channelled "planet destroying abilities" does not even begin to compare to the Emperor's -- unlike Palpatine, Bane could not generate such power himself and was forced to rely on the entire Brotherhood -- and if we use your own pattern of logic, Bane's maneuver was entirely ritualistic as well. The fact that Palpatine personally generated the power of his Force Storm is cemented the moment that he loses control of it -- it converges back on him and destroys it. Not to mention that when the uncontrolled Storm destroyed Palpatine, it also destroyed his flagship, Eclipse -- the most powerful starship in canon that is capable of resisting gigatons of energy.

That is the Force Storm in proper perspective.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
That would be like saying Nihilus dragging a entire fleet out of a gravity well, and Maul Force pushing padawan Obi-Wan are both just telekinesis, and that neither of the two are especially more impressive than the other one because of that.

It's the magnitude of energy that Bane channelled, and the methods he used in doing so that make the display vastly impressive, and it's completely different than what Dorsk 81 did, and much more impressive.

1. The energy that Bane channeled was described as being able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan, whereas the power than Dorsk81 channelled can only be said to have been adequate in pushing back a fleet of starships.

2. While the members of the BoD did [in part] willingly give Bane their power, it was done so in the form of lethal Force lightning, and Bane was forced to absorb the energy into multiple parts of his body, while simultaneously draining them of their power as well (hence the [in part]). Dorsk 81 displayed no ability whatsoever in receiving the power of the other Jedi, but rather they focused their power through him.

3. Whilst doing the above, Bane was also able to contain the energy within him, and presumably protect himself internally from it. Again, no such display from Dorsk 81.

4. After having done all of the above, Bane was able to still reach out with the Force, and redirect the contained energy across the entire Planet. Dorsk 81 only displayed the ability to focus his collective power on a single fleet.

5. Bane displayed little effort throughout the entire ritual, and was in perfect condition at the end of it, whereas the Jedi and Dorsk 81's combined attack ended up costing the clone's life.

As can be seen, the mastery and power Bane displayed in the ritual was miles more impressive than that of Dorsk 81, and in its own right, one of the greatest displays of Force Use there's ever been in the entire recorded history of the Star Wars Universe.

As is quite clearly explained, all that Palpatine does is move the Force in a controlled way down his body, concentrating his anger through his willpower, to unleash "the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power." It's made explicitly clear that the attack by its nature is completely ritualistic, relying on an organised procedure, that grants Palpatine access to power that he wouldn't usually have access to under normal circumstances.

It can prove to be an extremely huge advantage in some situations, but when you completely outclass your opponent like Nyax did Luke, it's quite unnecessary.

Most of this is pretty irrelevant, though about Luke blocking UnuThul's force push at the end of the Dark Nest crisis, that was only after an extremely large proportion of Killiks (the people who UnuThul drew his power from) had been killed in the war. Before that point, Unuthul had been quite capable of completely mind dominating Luke, which indicates that he was far more powerful than the Jedi Grandmaster at the point in question.

Not knowing that a specific attack is coming doesn't mean that Luke wouldn't have been putting up a defence for any attack in general, which is what he most certainly would have been doing, being in a battle situation against a visible enemy.

Where's the proof that he was completely unable to do it again. Nyax was extremely arrogant, and downright irrational at times, it was quite clear that he simply wanted to toy with the party rather than disable them in a heartbeat as he was quite capable of doing.

Substantiate the idea that he was far from his prime, because he was pretty far into his learning curve by that point, and shows little demonstration of improvement even by LotF, his latest incarnation. Certainly not enough that would suggest he would fare any better than where he failed so miserable not that much longer before.

Nebaris is quite fond of using labyrinthine double standards. Nowhere has the summoning of Force Storms been stated to be explicitly ritualistic, and yet Nebaris deems it so, and therefore not an accurate depiction of his powers. Yet when the same standard applies to Bane? Oh, no. It's clearly an indication that Bane is a superubermegaForce conduit of doom.

Pa-****ing-thetic. I think I'll put him on ignore as well until he learns to raise his game.

Originally posted by Gideon
This gross misrepresentation has gone on long enough, Nebaris, and it's time that we start putting things back into proper perspective.

Funny, because I can recall providing quotes and applying context every single time I lay down this "gross misrepresentation" and you... running off into Darth Sexy's arms every single time and not responding.

Now, again:

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force." – The Essential Guide to the Force, Pg 179.

As is explained, all that's required is moving the Force down your body, in a controlled way, concentrating your anger through your willpower, and meditating it from the lower vital centers of the body. Where exactly do you get power from that? The scale is minimal (limited to a human body) and even then nothing even hints that any certain level of power would be required at all.

If anything, great control is implied (keywords = very/vital center), but even then, if you wanted to make a point about it, it would be up to you to substantiate it, and it's immediately undermined anyway by the extreme implications and high likelihood of the Emperor using the Eclipse (which is where he was every single time he unleashed a Force Storm) to help focus his powers.

But as I said, no real power is implied whatsoever.

^ For the record, that's what you'd call putting things into perspective. You're clearly not someone who's actually capable of it, and maybe if/when you start actually analysing evidence and evaluating your points, you'll one-day join our number.

According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Force Storms are the most destructive Force technique in existence and Palpatine can use it to "demolish fleets" and "tear the surfaces off of worlds".

I don't deny the power of the Force Storms (even though there are still far greater examples of Force power), I question the methods that Palpatine used in summoning them, and as established, they don't scream uber power like you apparently wish (despite claiming in the past how you hate how overpowered they make Palpatine seem).

And the fact remains that Palpatine remains the only Force sensitive within the whole of canon with the power to summon and control one;

Substantiate the power required, because as established, there's no indication that a set amount of power acts as a prerequisite, and as for control, how about substantiating that as well; for one, the power itself grants the user limited control over it (as the TotJ Companion states); can you prove that Palpatine demonstrated an impressive level of control on top of the "limited control" given to him by the technique itself?

the whole scenario with Freedon Nadd is irrelevant, because he only has "knowledge" of the Force Storm -- which does not imply or state mastery of it.

Actually, in the given context, knowledge of the power quite clearly is indicative of the capability of using it, and I say this because in Freedon Nadd's section, under his abilities, it's stated that he possesses the knowledge of all the abilities mentioned in the Sourcebook, in respect to what abilities he would possess if you were to use him as a character, and before anyone questions it, no, it's not gameplay specific, because there's also a reference (in the exact same sentence) made to unknown secrets hidden in ancient holocrons and tomes, which has no bearing whatsoever on gameplay, but the storyline.

Your constant fellating of how Darth Bane channelled "planet destroying abilities" does not even begin to compare to the Emperor's

1. Not even Palpatine's Force Storms can generate such power, and his actual regular level of ability, when used offensively, has at best only caused a street level of damage. Be serious here, Palpatine is not a planetary level threat.

2. As I explained to tulakhordpwns, Bane was able to absorb, contain, and direct a level of power that Palpatine could only ever dream of.

It's the magnitude of energy that Bane channelled, and the methods he used in doing so that make the display vastly impressive, and it's completely different than what Dorsk 81 did, and much more impressive.

1. The energy that Bane channeled was described as being able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan, whereas the power than Dorsk81 channelled can only be said to have been adequate in pushing back a fleet of starships.

2. While the members of the BoD did [in part] willingly give Bane their power, it was done so in the form of lethal Force lightning, and Bane was forced to absorb the energy into multiple parts of his body, while simultaneously draining them of their power as well (hence the [in part]). Dorsk 81 displayed no ability whatsoever in receiving the power of the other Jedi, but rather they focused their power through him.

3. Whilst doing the above, Bane was also able to contain the energy within him, and presumably protect himself internally from it. Again, no such display from Dorsk 81.

4. After having done all of the above, Bane was able to still reach out with the Force, and redirect the contained energy across the entire Planet. Dorsk 81 only displayed the ability to focus his collective power on a single fleet.

5. Bane displayed little effort throughout the entire ritual, and was in perfect condition at the end of it, whereas the Jedi and Dorsk 81's combined attack ended up costing the clone's life.

As can be seen, the mastery and power Bane displayed in the ritual was miles more impressive than that of Dorsk 81, and in its own right, one of the greatest displays of Force Use there's ever been in the entire recorded history of the Star Wars Universe.

The Emperor has never even come close to some of the stuff that Bane (when he was 27, had received less than three years of training, and had yet to obtain the orbalisk armour) pulls off in the ritual, and we have no reason to believe that he can.

-- unlike Palpatine, Bane could not generate such power himself and was forced to rely on the entire Brotherhood

All we can claim for sure, actually, is that he didn't believe himself capable of generating and directing the power on his own at the specific time. That doesn't mean that he didn't possess the capabilities of generating such power, or that he didn't possess the potential to do so, and it doesn't deny the possibility that he could, but simply couldn't be sure either way. His raw power, after-all, was directly stated to be far greater than that of the entire BoD (which according to page 26 of the 2005 Star Wars Chronology, encompassed 20,000 Force Sensitives).

-- and if we use your own pattern of logic, Bane's maneuver was entirely ritualistic as well.

Inability to keep up with correctly applied logic, and false comparisons FTW!

Typical Gideon.

The difference between the ritualistic nature of what Bane and Palpatine did is that with Bane, for the Force Lightning Storm Ritual, there were certain actions that were required and that Bane had to perform single-handedly under his own ability.

^Those are what I've been using as evidence for Bane's level of power; the fact that he performed the actions in a ritual is irrelevant; he was able to absorb, contain, and redirect a planetary magnitude of energy, and all under his own ability.

Sidious, on the other hand, activates a Force Storm by applying [from what we know] a minimal level of energy that causes somewhat of a chain reaction that summons these Force Storms. They're not testament to his regular level of ability, bottom line.

The fact that Palpatine personally generated the power of his Force Storm is cemented the moment that he loses control of it -- it converges back on him and destroys it. Not to mention that when the uncontrolled Storm destroyed Palpatine, it also destroyed his flagship, Eclipse -- the most powerful starship in canon that is capable of resisting gigatons of energy.

Again, I do not deny the power of the Force Storm, nor do I deny that Palpatine was able to summon them under his own power. What I'm doing is questioning the methods he used, and they simply don't suggest that any certain amount of power was necessarily required.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nebaris is quite fond of using labyrinthine double standards. Nowhere has the summoning of Force Storms been stated to be explicitly ritualistic, and yet Nebaris deems it so, and therefore not an accurate depiction of his powers. Yet when the same standard applies to Bane? Oh, no. It's clearly an indication that Bane is a superubermegaForce conduit of doom.

Pa-****ing-thetic. I think I'll put him on ignore as well until he learns to raise his game.

Nice. Your excuses for getting your ass kicked on so many levels were getting kind of lame, at least you're starting to give them to me beforehand.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Nice. Your excuses for getting your ass kicked on so many levels were getting kind of lame, at least you're starting to give them to me beforehand.

Poor Noobaris, still in denial. I can't even begin to count how many times Escape has destroyed anything you have typed coming close to an argument. You're still the hilarious forum clown lying to himself. However, after 40 bans and no debate wins, it's time for you to seek out a new hobby.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
1) Only a fleet of starships? "Pellaeon's entire fleet of star destroyers" to be exact. He pushed them far enough that they could not be used in the battle.

Worthless information, much? The point is, he was only able to effect a fleet (no matter how great it was) with his powers, which in terms of scale is miles behind being able to affect an entire planet.

All Bane did was unleash a storm that burned the forest where the Jedi were hiding, not destroy a planet.

Actually, in the comic, and novel, [and Dark Side Sourcebook I believe], it's stated that had the other Sith not broken their connection, that Bane would have been able to destroy the entire Planet. Meaning he had already absorbed all of the power, already contained all of it, and would have been capable of redirecting it over the entire planet (and thus, possessed such a level of mastery over it). Any direct reference to a forest, and just a forest, is easily explained by the fact that Ruusan was a Forest World, covered in it. It encompassed the entire planet.

[quote]2) It is never said that the Brotherhood is is using force lightning. PoD says "The night sky filled with dark clouds and a fierce wind swirled across the plateau, tearing at the cloaks and capes of the Sith. The air shook with the thunder and crackle of a mounting electrical storm. . . . The Brotherhood slipped deeper into the collective trance, barely even aware of the storm now raging about their physical selves." It is the storm that Bane is creating which gives off lightning.

Actually, no. The entire purpose of the ritual was for the Brotherhood to give Bane their power, and it came in the form of Force Lightning, which Bane was able to draw into himself and feed off of.

Just look at the comic, it's quite clearly illustrated: swtimeline.ru/?view=860&size=M&page=066

3/5) Dorsk is not nearly as strong in the force as the combined power of the jedi assisting him, so naturally his body cannot handle the power.

This claim requires proof. Where, in any canon source, has it been stated or shown, or even implied that the body of a Force User can't contain a level of power that goes beyond what the Force User possesses? Not that it matters, this wouldn't in any way undermine Bane's display anyway.

Bane, you say is more powerful than the Brotherhood, making it a sustainable amount of energy.

He is in raw power, though, again, the idea that the body of a Force User can't contain more power than the Force User is capable of generating remains completely unsupported. But again, not that it matters, just saying.

4) Bane never directs the storm across an entire planet, just the forest where the jedi were.

He did actually, it's even stated somewhere in PoD, not that it matters, because it's stated that he would have been able to destroy the entire planet regardless, which would require an even greater scale of redirection.

now I quote you regarding Palpatine:

If you believe this, then you would not be so impressed with Bane's storm. Bane himself calls the technique a "ritual".

See my reply to Gideon.

He also thinks while drawing on the power of the Brotherhood "This is how it should be! All the power of the Brotherhood in one body! The only way to unleash the full potential of the dark side!" Clearly he is drawing on power he would not normally have.

No, all he's saying is that the darkside taps into its full potential only when focused in one vessel. That doesn't mean he's not capable of generating such power himself.

You seem to think that Nyax can completely outclass Luke even without the advantage of surprise.

He did, and he never even had the advantage of surprise, so yes.

Yet that is not true, as the second time Nyax tries to control Luke, it does not work. And it is not just Luke, even Mara is able to resist the attack the second time around.

...What? When did he ever try again?

It is relevant because I was showing how big of an advantage surprise is, and the only time Nyax and UnuThul were able to affect Luke was when they had surprise on their side.

That's absolute rubbish; Luke had been prepared against both of them each time. His defencive powers simply failed him.

[quote]I skimmed through DN, and nowhere did I read about Unuthul dominating Luke, so please tell me where this happens.

Well you did skim read it... and I really don't care about proving this point enough to go download the novel and find the quote for you.

The closest thing I could find to UnuThul controlling Luke is this quote:
"Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that [b]in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might."-Joiner King
Even here Luke is only close to being overwhelmed because of surprise.

That's not it, he actually basically had his mind under complete control, and Luke had been fully prepared against him.

Still don't believe me? Still think surprise is not to blame? Well, just like with Nyax, UnuThul is never able to replicate this "feat". From 1 page later:
"Raynar stepped toward Luke, and suddenly the dark presence returned, pressing against him, trying to push him toward the edge of the dais. Luke opened himself to the Force and pushed back, standing firm until Raynar came toe-to-toe with him, and they stood glaring into each other's eyes, two strangers who had been, in another life, Master and pupil."

The second time, as I said, is after the Killik populace had been vastly devastated, thus reducing UnuThul's potential for power.

Jacen managed force push Luke (Inferno) when Luke was expecting lightning, another physical attack. The fact that Nyax cannot control the likes of Mara or Tahiri when robbed of the element of surprise is proof enough that he is hardly dominating forcewise.

Again, what? He never once attempted to control them again.

I would love for you to explain how Nyax is arrogant, or why he was toying with them.

He displays it throughout the battle, thinking thsat the three of them never had a chance against him. He had them all under his control, yet chose to give it up to play around with them in physical combat. He clearly wasn't taking the battle seriously.

Nyax is "outraged" at Tahiri, there is no indication he wants to toy with her.

Outraged after she stabs him in the back (literally), yes. However, before that, he had been completely toying with them, which was quite clear.

He gets much more experience, fighting opponents like Shimmra, multiple slayers, superpowered Lomi Plo, superpowered Welk, superpowered Raynar, Lumiya, and Caedus. He shows new tricks like killing force lightning, choke, turning away laser cannons, dissappearing in the force, force grabbing without any movement, and even shatterpoint I here.

1. Again, more experience against the Vong only amounts to him adapting to a completely different kind of opponent than the ones who had ever shown clear signs of superiority over him. It works against him, nor for him, as he would be even less orientated against such an opponent.

2. While he does get more experience, and while he does display more knowledge, he doesn't show any improvement whatsoever in Force power. I mean, he was already capable of shielding entire planets with the Force and manipulating miniature black holes in the NJO series; some have even questioned whether or not he may have been growing weaker from those point up to the LofT era. Either way, as I've been saying this entire time, he was significantly less powerful than UnuThul and Nyax (and Zonama as well, which you don't appear to disagree with) and hasn't demonstrated a significant enough of an improvement for him to be logically placed above them.

I don't have time for a full response, so I will just post a quote from the Nyax fight.
"Luke felt Nyax's astonishment, his outrage at having been wounded, however trivially. Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.
This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the time's he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
Luke reached for Mara again and found her similarly armored, but with logic, not emotion. Running through her mind was a cold calculation of allies and opponents, actions and consequences. Uppermost in it was a realization that Nyax could rule any individual, and out of individuals whole galaxies were made."
-Rebel Stand

Seeing as I have read DN several times, and your memory has been faulty in some cases, I think you should provide quotes for when you claim UnuThul controls Luke.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Funny, because I can recall providing quotes and applying context every single time I lay down this "gross misrepresentation" and you... running off into Darth Sexy's arms every single time and not responding.

I see you're keen on further demonstrating to the entire virtual world why no one here takes you seriously. It's curious that, despite your ever-changing arguments and stances [and, of course, usernames], your lackluster wit and ability to assign great amounts of time into being here continue to shine through. It's probably the reason that you're so very easily identified; it might behoove you to stick to the argument and not bother with the banter, you tend to bring up "lame" material.

Now, again:

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force." – The Essential Guide to the Force, Pg 179.

As is explained, all that's required is moving the Force down your body, in a controlled way, concentrating your anger through your willpower, and meditating it from the lower vital centers of the body. Where exactly do you get power from that? The scale is minimal (limited to a human body) and even then nothing even hints that any certain level of power would be required at all.

I find your very premise most offensive to those of us who are capable of reason; Nebaris, even if we are to assume that this is the entire and total account of how to summon Force Storms [because Palpatine is legendary for his honesty], perhaps you ought to read a bit more carefully? "I have learned to open the hidden resevoirs of dark side Power" -- since, clearly, Force sensitives vary in terms of raw strength and attunement to the Force and Palpatine remains the only darksider to possess the ability to summon and control Force Storms -- clearly Force strength is a requirement.

If anything, great control is implied (keywords = very/vital center), but even then, if you wanted to make a point about it, it would be up to you to substantiate it, and it's immediately undermined anyway by the extreme implications and high likelihood of the Emperor using the Eclipse (which is where he was every single time he unleashed a Force Storm) to help focus his powers.

Palpatine is not Naga Sadow and you have yet to prove that the Eclipse is a focusing mechanism for dark side energies or that he was on his flagship when he first used the Force Storm to deposit Skywalker into the Lictor-class dungeon ship. Another example of your legendary double standards.

But as I said, no real power is implied whatsoever.

Well, as we understand, you tend to be wrong.

^ For the record, that's what you'd call putting things into perspective. You're clearly not someone who's actually capable of it, and maybe if/when you start actually analysing evidence and evaluating your points, you'll one-day join our number.

Perhaps we could take you a bit more seriously if you weren't well past the point of delusion? It's like a moron [you] lecturing a genius [me] on intelligence; you must always consider the source, Nebaris, and your sentiments lose considerable luster.

I don't deny the power of the Force Storms (even though there are still far greater examples of Force power), I question the methods that Palpatine used in summoning them, and as established, they don't scream uber power like you apparently wish (despite claiming in the past how you hate how overpowered they make Palpatine seem).

For the record, I despise all manner of Force techniques such as the Force Storm, and prefer the days where the Force was mystical rather than outright magical and comic bookish. And yes, they happen to be the Rob Halford or Sebastian Bach of screaming uber power.

Substantiate the power required, because as established, there's no indication that a set amount of power acts as a prerequisite, and as for control, how about substantiating that as well; for one, the power itself grants the user limited control over it (as the TotJ Companion states); can you prove that Palpatine demonstrated an impressive level of control on top of the "limited control" given to him by the technique itself?

Of course I can. The only time he erred in his use of the Force Storm was when he was cut off from the Force by the applied powers of the trio of Skywalkers. As far as the power required, it's already established that the technique does require considerable "resevoirs" of power. This coming from a sorcerer who was being destroyed under the "well of dark side energies" that he became.

Actually, in the given context, knowledge of the power quite clearly is indicative of the capability of using it, and I say this because in Freedon Nadd's section, under his abilities, it's stated that he possesses the knowledge of all the abilities mentioned in the Sourcebook, in respect to what abilities he would possess if you were to use him as a character, and before anyone questions it, no, it's not gameplay specific, because there's also a reference (in the exact same sentence) made to unknown secrets hidden in ancient holocrons and tomes, which has no bearing whatsoever on gameplay, but the storyline.

I'm afraid that doesn't cut it, Nebaris. "Knowledge" =/= "mastery". It's far too ambiguous [remember that particular word?].

1. Not even Palpatine's Force Storms can generate such power, and his actual regular level of ability, when used offensively, has at best only caused a street level of damage.

I'm afraid not. Palpatine is the only master and user of the technique, which is capable of ripping the surfaces off worlds. There is no condition based on higher levels of energy; Palpatine remains capable of destroying the surface of a planet.

Be serious here, Palpatine is not a planetary level threat.

Correct. From the narrative and story, given that he is the "imbalance in the Force" that clouded the perceptions of the Jedi and diminished their own ability to use the Force, he's a galactic level threat. According to the New Essential Guide to Characters he is "the greatest evil in galactic history" and according to the Complete Visual Dictionary "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power". You're done, Nebaris.

2. As I explained to tulakhordpwns, Bane was able to absorb, contain, and direct a level of power that Palpatine could only ever dream of.

You mean a level of power capable of destroying the surface of a world? That he did so with great help and assistance? You mean the same sort of power that Palpatine is capable of summoning and controlling on his own? Ah, yes. Now I know what you mean.

The Emperor has never even come close to some of the stuff that Bane (when he was 27, had received less than three years of training, and had yet to obtain the orbalisk armour) pulls off in the ritual, and we have no reason to believe that he can.

"We"? The only one who seems to believe that is you and you clearly suffer from multiple personality disorder. And they all seem to have one similarity: they lack the ability to reason properly. Such a disgrace.

All we can claim for sure, actually, is that he didn't believe himself capable of generating and directing the power on his own at the specific time. That doesn't mean that he didn't possess the capabilities of generating such power, or that he didn't possess the potential to do so, and it doesn't deny the possibility that he could, but simply couldn't be sure either way. His raw power, after-all, was directly stated to be far greater than that of the entire BoD (which according to page 26 of the 2005 Star Wars Chronology, encompassed 20,000 Force Sensitives).

Sadly, this is all total speculation. Perhaps if you had something to ground it with...?

Inability to keep up with correctly applied logic, and false comparisons FTW!

Your family motto?

Typical Gideon.

Such brilliance, yes, seems to be my prominent trait.

The difference between the ritualistic nature of what Bane and Palpatine did is that with Bane, for the Force Lightning Storm Ritual, there were certain actions that were required and that Bane had to perform single-handedly under his own ability.

Yes. It's my understanding that he managed to stand up straight under his own ability. That's about it. Palpatine did everything else (including standing up straight) on his own.

^Those are what I've been using as evidence for Bane's level of power; the fact that he performed the actions in a ritual is irrelevant; he was able to absorb, contain, and redirect a planetary magnitude of energy, and all under his own ability.

I see. So to you, when Bane does a ritual, the fact that it required assistance and preparation is irrelevant? Hard to believe people have a tough time thinking you're objective. Seriously, why do I even need to point the gross stupidity of your logic out? You do a hell of a job on your own.

Sidious, on the other hand, activates a Force Storm by applying [from what we know] a minimal level of energy that causes somewhat of a chain reaction that summons these Force Storms. They're not testament to his regular level of ability, bottom line.

I decide the bottom line, not you. The bottom line is that Palpatine uses his power and concentration to summon the "most destructive" Force technique ever all on his own accord. But if we match up those standards to Bane's feat, you're right, him becoming a mere wall outlet of the Force doesn't seem to mean much for his regular level of ability.

Again, I do not deny the power of the Force Storm, nor do I deny that Palpatine was able to summon them under his own power. What I'm doing is questioning the methods he used, and they simply don't suggest that any certain amount of power was necessarily required.

Yes, yes, we've been through this. The fact remains that Palpatine was able to utilize the most powerful Force technique ever created of his own accord and remains the only person to do it. This technique is capable of doing what Bane required dozens of fellow Sith to do, as well as destroy capital ships capable of resisting gigatons of damage, as well as alter its purpose to teleport Luke Skywalker into a dungeon ship.

Final score? Gideon and Palpatine have a clear advantage over Nebaris and Darth Bane. Raise your game or get off the court, Nebaris, and clearly? It's time for you to pack your bags.

pwned