JA Trilogy Luke vs RoT Bane

Started by Darth Exodus11 pages
"time stood still" is also a figure of speech, because time cannot literally stand still, or you would NEVER reach the next moment. So that is a physical impossiblility. If it really truly appeared as if time stood still, then time would never move on. My point is, these are authors describing enhanced speed.

It never actually said that time stood still, just that it seemed as such becuase Bane was moving so much faster than everyone else.

So which is faster? we can't really know.

Nor do we want to as they'll never be used in an comparison as they described pretty much the same thing for the same character.

Hell, even I, not even a professional swordsman can strike with a blade and have it hit my target 'in the blink of an eye';

Then you must blink really slowly.

Err... lol. I'm sure you can do that yourself; it's not DIFFICULT to wield a normal blade and strike with it so fast that it can barely be seen; the reason why lightsaber are seen is because they're bright and have a certain outline. In addition, take any fast prequel fight (The likes of Obi vs. Anakin, Sidious vs. Yoda, Dooku vs. Yoda, Grievous vs. Obi-Wan...) and try to blink before a strike is made. Once the blink is over, the strike would already have landed; you see, while describing it on in and paper makes it seem more impressive, it's not really that hard to do it.

Nobody is denying Bane's exceptional skill and speed. Using common sense to figure out who is faster is better- of course, someone of, say, ANH Vader's caliber can't be seen as 'really fast' cuz he's not one of the few characters whose speed are emphasized, time and time again.

By NJO, Luke would be logically faster than Bane because he has far more raw power and has a better mastery of the force. See what I mean?

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err... lol. I'm sure you can do that yourself; it's not DIFFICULT to wield a normal blade and strike with it so fast that it can barely be seen; the reason why lightsaber are seen is because they're bright and have a certain outline. In addition, take any fast prequel fight (The likes of Obi vs. Anakin, Sidious vs. Yoda, Dooku vs. Yoda, Grievous vs. Obi-Wan...) and try to blink before a strike is made. Once the blink is over, the strike would already have landed; you see, while describing it on in and paper makes it seem more impressive, it's not really that hard to do it.

The difference is, Bane moved his entire body far beyond what the eyes of trained Force sensitives could see, to the point where he appeared invisible to them. No other Force User has ever displayed that level of speed, and this was something Bane was capable of at a point in time when he was far from his known peak of power, and before obtaining the orbalisk armour, which near continuously pumped adrenaline and darkside energies into his body (both of which would enhance his speed).

By NJO, Luke would be logically faster than Bane because he has far more raw power

Far more raw power? Nothing even suggests that he possesses any superiority in the department. The only Force User who we can undeniably claim to possess more raw power than Bane is Anakin Skywalker, due to him being the Chosen One, but even then, it's up for debate as to exactly how much more raw power he possesses.

Luke being the son of the Chosen One might imply as much, but that's all that it would be: an implication. We still don't fully understand exactly how Force potential is genetically passed down from one generation to another, and it's highly possible that the gap in raw power between Anakin and Luke is greater than it is between Anakin and Bane.

We don't know either way, which is why it's silly to make such outrageous claims.

and has a better mastery of the force.

Bane's displayed the ability to use the Force on the subatomic level, and can use the Force on a planetary scale. Not any other Force User has displayed that level of mastery, and that includes Luke, so really, what justification do have for making such a claim?

Originally posted by HomoSuperior

The difference is, Bane moved his entire body far beyond what the eyes of trained Force sensitives could see, to the point where he appeared invisible to them. No other Force User has ever displayed that level of speed, and this was something Bane was capable of at a point in time when he was far from his known peak of power, and before obtaining the orbalisk armour, which near continuously pumped adrenaline and darkside energies into his body (both of which would enhance his speed).

Far more raw power? Nothing even suggests that he possesses any superiority in the department. The only Force User who we can undeniably claim to possess more raw power than Bane is Anakin Skywalker, due to him being the Chosen One, but even then, it's up for debate as to exactly how much more raw power he possesses.

Luke being the son of the Chosen One might imply as much, but that's all that it would be: an implication. We still don't fully understand exactly how Force potential is genetically passed down from one generation to another, and it's highly possible that the gap in raw power between Anakin and Luke is greater than it is between Anakin and Bane.

We don't know either way, which is why it's silly to make such outrageous claims.

Bane's displayed the ability to use the Force on the subatomic level, and can use the Force on a planetary scale. Not any other Force User has displayed that level of mastery, and that includes Luke, so really, what justification do have for making such a claim? [/B]

Are you Nebaris? Because if you are, it's no wonder you get caught so easily. Using the same reasonings every single time ('Subatomic level'😉 is just bound to get you caught. Although I have no will to debate with you, just for the sake of the argument, I'll counter the specific things you said in that post...

Lol. Luke has a slightly inferior force potential than Anakin, but still, as he IS a Skywalker- you know why he's the most powerful character in Star Wars? Because he has the absolute greatest raw power imaginable. Maybe the fact that Luke had displayed far more impressive feats than Bane, displaying a greater mastery of the light side than any before him...

And I suppose Sidious' 'blur of speed/invisible to other people', Luke's '20 sabers at once' don't match Bane. Yeah, right.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Are you Nebaris? Because if you are, it's no wonder you get caught so easily. Using the same reasonings every single time ('Subatomic level'😉 is just bound to get you caught. Although I have no will to debate with you, just for the sake of the argument, I'll counter the specific things you said in that post...

You know, you really do have a nasty habit of saying that you're going to counter someone's points, and then failing miserably. It's adorable, really.

Lol. Luke has a slightly inferior force potential than Anakin,

Only "slightly" inferior? Substantiate this highly idiotic and completely unsupported claim.

but still, as he IS a Skywalker-

Substantiate what effect BEING a Skywalker has, and prove that it automatically puts his potential above Bane's.

you know why he's the most powerful character in Star Wars?

Fallacy of many questions.

Because he has the absolute greatest raw power imaginable.

Fallacy of Division.

Maybe the fact that Luke had displayed far more impressive feats than Bane,

Like? What's far more impressive than being able to absorb and contain a planetary level of Force power, and then being able to redirect it with a planetary scale? That's a planetary level of both power and mastery; Luke's never displayed anything far above that.

displaying a greater mastery of the light side than any before him...

Bane's not a lightsider, and he's displayed a greater mastery of the Force (period) than anyone before or after him (that we've yet to see, which includes Luke).

And I suppose Sidious' 'blur of speed/

As much as you wish the opposite was the case, the fact remains that George Lucas retconned the part of the novel that frames Sidious and Mace moving at such speeds, and made no effort whatsoever at even hinting that Mace and Sidious may have been moving at such speeds in the final product.

Not that it matter anyway, as Bane was likely moving faster than Sidious would have been anyway (appearing invisible to the likes of Kas'im >>> than appearing like a blur to the likes of Anakin Skywalker (I don't care if he was the Chosen One, his developed power and Force mastery was severely lacking at that particular point of time, whereas Kas'im was able to defend against an attack that would have been able to disintegrate his undefended body, which suggests that he was at a higher level of power than Anakin)), and again, at a time where he was miles away from his highest level of power.

invisible to other people',

Sidious has never displayed that level of speed, and to reiterate, Bane appeared that way to trained Force Users (Kas'im being one that was among them) when he was literally miles away from being as fast as he would be by RoT.

Luke's '20 sabers at once' don't match Bane. Yeah, right.

All that was said was that Luke might as well have been wielding twenty lightsabers, which essentially amounts to him being able to wield his lightsaber with twenty times the efficiency than that of an unknown measuring device, and even then, that's if the statement wasn't an exaggeration. There's also the fact that he was in a powerful Force meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, enhancing his abilities to a similar degree that Battle Meditation likely would. Hell, the fact that Jaina was capable of seeing him during the entire process at least tells us that he wasn't moving faster than what such a calibre of Jedi were capable of seeing.

I fail to see how that compares to what Bane displays in Pod, and comparing the circumstances (Luke being in powerful Force Meld/Bane far from his known peak of power) behind what they display even further undermines how what Luke displays stacks up to Bane's level of speed.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Only "slightly" inferior? Substantiate this highly idiotic and completely unsupported claim.

If you've proven anything in your posts, it's merely simply about how much of a blatant idiot you are. Very nice.

And you know what? According to George Lucas, Luke had the same; yes, same force potential as Anakin Skywalker, the being who was known to have potential to be the strongest person in Star Wars history. Yes, even above Bane! *gasp*. According to Lucas in the ESB Director's Commentary, Luke's force potential is actually twice as much as Sidious', and also happened state in the making of RotS that Anakin could have went on to become twice as powerful as Sidious. See the similarities? Like it or not, Luke's raw power FAR exceeds Bane's.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Substantiate what effect BEING a Skywalker has, and prove that it automatically puts his potential above Bane's.

How about my evidence above, made by GL, who is TEH source, superior to anything else? Also, how about the fact that Leia, a being who had almost no training with her friggin' FETUS could channel the entire light side of the force to cut off Sidious from the force? Yeah, if there was ever something that screams out "raw power!!!" more than this, I'll probably eat my hat. If I had a hat.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Fallacy of many questions.

Fallacy of Division.

How could I forget that you think that Sion is the most powerful being in Star Wars.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Like? What's far more impressive than being able to absorb and contain a planetary level of Force power, and then being able to redirect it with a planetary scale? That's a planetary level of both power and mastery; Luke's never displayed anything far above that.

Err... Sidious replicated the same feat with his force storms, and this is WITHOUT the aid of 25 other Sith Lords; and Luke is stated to be more powerful than Sidious. The same Luke whose attunement to the force was to the extent that he could construct a lightsaber- something that only Padawans who had their training almost entirely complete, training that generally spanned several years- with basically no training whatsoever? Yeah.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Bane's not a lightsider, and he's displayed a greater mastery of the Force (period) than anyone before or after him (that we've yet to see, which includes Luke).

I basically "ROFL" at this. Bane would get trashed in the force by Luke, both due to Luke's raw power, his EXTREME saber skills. How about him being able to use lightning to a potency that he was able to WTFpwn friggin' Yuuzhan Vong slayers? Deflect blasts from AT-ATs using the force exclusively? Yeah, as much as you like, Bane is trumped in mastery of the force by a large amount of people.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
As much as you wish the opposite was the case, the fact remains that George Lucas retconned the part of the novel that frames Sidious and Mace moving at such speeds, and made no effort whatsoever at even hinting that Mace and Sidious may have been moving at such speeds in the final product.

The only thing he 'retconned' were the fact that Anakin did not see the actual fight; he implied absolutely no where that they were fighting slower. According to Ian McDiarmid- who has no motive to lie- Sidious was supposed to be one of the fastest duelists around. Sure, his 500 times the speed was an exaggerration, but still, the fact remains that BOTH Sidious and Mace fought with extreme speeds. Think of the novel as "What Anakin would've saw had he seen the duel".

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Not that it matter anyway, as Bane was likely moving faster than Sidious would have been anyway (appearing invisible to the likes of Kas'im >>> than appearing like a blur to the likes of Anakin Skywalker (I don't care if he was the Chosen One, his developed power and Force mastery was severely lacking at that particular point of time, whereas Kas'im was able to defend against an attack that would have been able to disintegrate his undefended body, which suggests that he was at a higher level of power than Anakin)), and again, at a time where he was miles away from his highest level of power.

And what the f*** implies the fact that force = enhanced vision? I didn't see it anywhere; sure, you can use the force to 'see' your opponent's strikes, that's how these sorts of people can keep up with each other; but nevertheless, these points are made from merely visual sight, and therefore, Anakin and Kas'im are equally reliable sources.

Oh, and by the way, maybe Bane's 'moving so fast time stood still' is also an exaggerration, like you claim Luke's 20 sabers to be?

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Sidious has never displayed that level of speed, and to reiterate, Bane appeared that way to trained Force Users (Kas'im being one that was among them) when he was literally miles away from being as fast as he would be by RoT.

Right. How about DE? Oh, I forgot, you think that Bane's breathe could kill DE Sidious.

I'm not gonna turn this into another Sidious vs. Bane debate; it ended being a very murky and annoying debate between Faunus and myself.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
All that was said was that Luke might as well have been wielding twenty lightsabers, which essentially amounts to him being able to wield his lightsaber with twenty times the efficiency than that of an [b]unknown measuring device, and even then, that's if the statement wasn't an exaggeration. There's also the fact that he was in a powerful Force meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, enhancing his abilities to a similar degree that Battle Meditation likely would. Hell, the fact that Jaina was capable of seeing him during the entire process at least tells us that he wasn't moving faster than what such a calibre of Jedi were capable of seeing.[/B]

The fact that 20 sabers basically means that Luke seemed to be wielding 20 sabers, as you yourself said, which actually means the fact that he attacked so fast he looked like he wasn't attacking with one saber, but rather with twenty sabers- basically, with 20 times the speed of what would likely be expected of the average Jedi; like it or not, that is still far more impressive than anything Bane could do. 'Time stood still' isn't particularly clear, and just as 20 sabers at once could appear to be an exaggerration, time stood still is even MORE likely to be an exaggerration. Unless your own rules don't apply to Bane.

Other than you, basically every single person agrees that Luke's capacity with the force is well beyond what Bane could do; indeed, this is the same Luke that canonically, unless you want to argue with GL, has the highest (tied with Anakin) recorded raw power in history. While he may not have the highest mastery or the broadest knowledge, he certainly isn't lacking in that; as you could see, Luke, a far superior user of the force in comparison with Bane, could logically empower himself and allow himself speed beyond what Bane could do.

During the battle of Yuuzhan'tar, Luke is described as a malestorm of force energy, and shocked the likes of Jacen and Jaina with his incredible speed and ferociety; essentially, he became one with the force and allowed himself to be put into a 'trance' by its power. It's similar to his duel with reborn Sidious upon the Eclipse, when the entire light side of the force and the extreme battle meditation offered by his sister and nephew empowered him to a similar degree; however, this time, he is doing it himself, and is displaying power greater than anything Bane could even come close to displaying during his lifetime.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
I fail to see how that compares to what Bane displays in Pod, and comparing the circumstances (Luke being in powerful Force Meld/Bane far from his known peak of power) behind what they display even further undermines how what Luke displays stacks up to Bane's level of speed.

As you fail to see that, you're absolutely blind and cannot see the most obivious thing in Star Wars history. Now, I'm going to take the advice of my wise comrade, Ivalice, and stop debating with you. You obiviously cannot see the obivious, and none can point it out to you, either.

just don't argue with him, report him, move on with your life...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
If you've proven anything in your posts, it's merely simply about how much of a blatant idiot you are. Very nice.

"Merely Simply?" Lol, YAYz for redundant redundancy?

And you know what?

No, what?

According to George Lucas, Luke had the same; yes, same force potential as Anakin Skywalker, the being who was known to have potential to be the strongest person in Star Wars history.

For future reference, as, and by your own admission, you don't actually have first hand knowledge of most of these quotes, when you don't, please share with us where exactly you're getting your information from, because this, like most of what you reference, is made up nonsense.

What was actually said was that Luke could become what Anakin could not, after a lengthy passage about Anakin no longer possessing the potential to one day surpass the Emperor. A few members here, for some strange and possibly homosexual reason, chose to interpret the statement as meaning that Luke possessed the exact same Force potential as Anakin, when it's much more likely that all that the statement was alluding to, was that, like Anakin, he possessed the potential to oneday surpass the Emperor.

A few members had this discussion with Advent about it a while back, you can see it for yourself here (killermovies.kom/forums/showthread.php?threadid=436003&pagenumber=3), and as was quite clearly established, the statement in no way undeniably points to them possessing the same potential, meaning, as usual, you have no point (remove the "K" from "KOM" and it basically starts right at the bottom).

Yes, even above Bane! *gasp*. According to Lucas in the ESB Director's Commentary, Luke's force potential is actually twice as much as Sidious', and also happened state in the making of RotS that Anakin could have went on to become twice as powerful as Sidious. See the similarities? Like it or not, Luke's raw power FAR exceeds Bane's.[quote]

Again, made up nonsense (the bit about Luke possessing double Sidious' potential). It's likely that someone somewhere (whoever you got that piece of information from) was either lying, or knew of the quote but was mixing Luke up with Anakin. Either way, the quote you provided doesn't exist.

[quote]How about my evidence above, made by GL, who is TEH source, superior to anything else?

Wait, hold up, I've always known that GL is the source when it comes to Star Wars... but TEH source? For real? Seriously? Damn, I had no idea. Either way, it doesn't matter, because GL didn't say any of the things you mentioned that applies to Luke.

Also, how about the fact that Leia, a being who had almost no training with her friggin' FETUS could channel the entire light side of the force to cut off Sidious from the force? Yeah, if there was ever something that screams out "raw power!!!" more than this, I'll probably eat my hat. If I had a hat.

That had nothing to do with her potential whatsoever. It was a completely anomalous occurrence, much like when Ganner was able to do the same in Traitor. Is he TEH shit when it comes to Force potential as well now?

How could I forget that you think that Sion is the most powerful being in Star Wars.

Poisoning the well, much? Please, just accept that your reasoning was as fallacious as it gets and then we'll go back to being best buds.

Err... Sidious replicated the same feat with his force storms,

Err... no. Sidious was only ever able to use a Force Storm to swallow a fleet, he never even came close to using it on a planetary scale, and aside from that, they're not valid representations of his power.

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force." – The Essential Guide to the Force, Pg 179.

As is quite clearly explained, all that Palpatine does is move the Force in a controlled way down his body, concentrating his anger through his willpower, to unleash "the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power." It's made explicitly clear that the attack by its nature is completely ritualistic, relying on an organised procedure, that grants Palpatine access to power that he wouldn't usually have access to under normal circumstances.

Then there's also the fact Sidious hasn't ever displayed a level of control over them that would indicate that he'd be capable of using it against an opponent in close combat without swallowing himself up in it with them, so essentially, they're useless to bring up.

and this is WITHOUT the aid of 25 other Sith Lords;

Bane did everything I described WITHOUT the aid of 25 other Sith Lords as well. He absorbed the power, contained it, and redirected it all under his own level of ability.

and Luke is stated to be more powerful than Sidious.

He's not, though it's quite clearly the case regardless.

The same Luke whose attunement to the force was to the extent that he could construct a lightsaber- something that only Padawans who had their training almost entirely complete, training that generally spanned several years- with basically no training whatsoever? Yeah.

...

Constructing a lightsaber? That's what you're using to support your argument with? Firstly, Luke had received training, via Obi-Wan's diary, and secondly, it's something that has nothing to do with Force ability. It's a mechanical process, nothing more.

Really, I find it mind baffling that you think that this somehow puts his raw power above that of someone like Bane.

Someone who was described as being far more powerful than the entire BoD (an Order of hundreds, at the very least) in the inside flap summary of PoD, someone who was able to fill up a room capable of housing hundreds of students with lightning after having learnt the technique just an hour earlier, and someone who became one of the most powerful beings we've ever seen with less than three years of training, to the point where he was capable of using the Force on a planetary scale. What did Luke ever do with such little training that compares to any of that/i]?

I basically "ROFL" at this. Bane would get trashed in the force by Luke, both due to Luke's raw power, his EXTREME saber skills. How about him being able to use lightning to a potency that he was able to WTFpwn friggin' Yuuzhan Vong slayers? Deflect blasts from AT-ATs using the force exclusively? Yeah, as much as you like, Bane is trumped in mastery of the force by a large amount of people.

Try to stay on topic, please. We're talking Force mastery here, what has Luke (or anyone, for that matter) ever displayed that would put them on par with someone who can both use the Force on a planetary scale, or alternatively on the subatomic level? Who else has ever displayed such range, such extreme ability on both ends?

The only thing he 'retconned' were the fact that Anakin did not see the actual fight;

How you appear visually depends and varies upon who sees you. Them appearing as a blur is 100% specific to how Anakin sees them. He didn't see them, as the movie shows us, ergo the entire segment is retconned.

he implied absolutely no where that they were fighting [i]slower.

It doesn't matter, the only indication that they were moving at such a speed exists only in N-Canon material. You could only argue that it fits GL's ultimate vision regardless of him retconning the scene if he at least made an attempt to include it in the final product. He didn't, ergo it's inadmissible as evidence.

According to Ian McDiarmid- who has no motive to lie- Sidious was supposed to be one of the fastest duelists around.

He pretty much was, however that doesn't automatically mean that he can move at speeds that he registers purely as a blur to trained Force Users. Nothings suggests that he's that fast.

Sure, his 500 times the speed was an exaggerration, but still, the fact remains that BOTH Sidious and Mace fought with extreme speeds. Think of the novel as "What Anakin would've saw had he seen the duel".

No, I'll think of it exactly as it is: N-Canon material that only guys that are attracted to old men would use as evidence.

And what the f*** implies the fact that force = enhanced vision? I didn't see it anywhere; sure, you can use the force to 'see' your opponent's strikes, that's how these sorts of people can keep up with each other; but nevertheless, these points are made from merely visual sight, and therefore, Anakin and Kas'im are equally reliable sources.

Apparently you can't quite grasp the entire concept behind moving faster than the eye can see. It doesn't actually mean that your vision is in any way lacking (though even if that were the case, Jedi do use the Force to augment their senses, as explained by Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan in the Jedi Apprentice series), what it actually means is that something is moving so quickly that your brain isn't capable of keeping up with it. Reaction speed, reaction timing, reflexes, whatever you want to call it, is what determines whether your brain can keep up with a particular movement or not, and it's something that Jedi are fully capable of enhancing. So no, Kas'im would be far more capable than Anakin in keeping up with such a movement.

Oh, and by the way, maybe Bane's 'moving so fast time stood still' is also an exaggerration, like you claim Luke's 20 sabers to be?

Except for the fact that the author goes completely out of his way to make it clear that Bane really was literally invisible to these Force Users, three different times (the first time with the statement "it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world," the second with a detailed description of how he was able to pull of the manoeuvre in the blink of an eye, and the third time with the description that he had moved "so much faster than their eyes could see,"😉. It was made explicitly clear that these Force Users quite simply weren't able to see a single thing throughout the entire manoeuvre. The statement that Luke might as well have been wielding twenty lightsabers, however, is always going to be subject to hyperbole, simply because the idea that he was wielding his lightsaber with exactly twenty times the efficiency of someone else wielding one is far too precise a calculation for it to realistically be taken 100% literally.

Right. How about DE?

Right. How about being elaborate?

Cite examples, and substantiate them, because as it stands, you haven't in any way supported the idea that Sidious' speed equals or surpasses Bane's (primarily due to the fact that it doesn't).

Oh, I forgot, you think that Bane's breathe could kill DE Sidious.

RotS Sidious, actually.

I'm not gonna turn this into another Sidious vs. Bane debate; it ended being a very murky and annoying debate between Faunus and myself.

Thanks for the newsflash.

The fact that 20 sabers basically means that Luke seemed to be wielding 20 sabers, as you yourself said, which actually means the fact that he attacked so fast he looked like he wasn't attacking with one saber, but rather with twenty sabers- basically, with 20 times the speed of what would likely be expected of the average Jedi; like it or not, that is still far more impressive than anything Bane could do.

Again:

1. The statement's naturally subject to hyperbole, due to the extremely precise number given.

2. All it means, if you take it completely literally, was that Luke was wielding his lightsaber with 20 times the efficiency of an unknown measuring device. It could be an average Jedi, it could be an average Human. We don't know either way.

3. He had been in a powerful Force Meld with his niece and nephew at the time.

4. Bane's level of speed was, again, when Bane was far from his peak, and before obtaining the orbalisk armour.

Really, you have no argument whatsoever. Based on what they've displayed, in terms of speed, Bane has Luke beaten by a mile.

'Time stood still' isn't particularly clear, and just as 20 sabers at once could appear to be an exaggerration, time stood still is even MORE likely to be an exaggerration. Unless your own rules don't apply to Bane.

I've already explained how this isn't the case.

The narrator quite clearly elaborated on the description by explaining the exact effect it hand on those around them, and exactly what he was capable of pulling off in a defined period of time

Other than you, basically every single person agrees that Luke's capacity with the force is well beyond what Bane could do;

Am I supposed to care? The majority of people here are either fanboys or morons. The popular consensus is only as reliable as the setting.

indeed, this is the same Luke that canonically, unless you want to argue with GL, has the highest (tied with Anakin) recorded raw power in history.

Except he states no such thing.

While he may not have the highest mastery or the broadest knowledge, he certainly isn't lacking in that; as you could see, Luke, a far superior user of the force in comparison with Bane, could logically empower himself and allow himself speed beyond what Bane could do.

No, he logically can't.

Developed power: Bane's is at the very least on par with Luke's, given the method in which he absorbed and contained a planet destroying level of energy.

Mastery: Bane has Luke beaten quite firmly here, given how he's able to use the Force on a planetary scale, or alternatively a subatomic scale.

Physical conditioning: Bane was a mountain of muscle, and while that would add on weight, it would have a far greater effect in fueling his speed. Luke's beaten in this category as well.

Then, of course, there's the orbalisk armour, which pumps Bane up with adrenaline, and dark side energies. An advantage Luke doesn't possess.

Logic is with Bane on this one.

During the battle of Yuuzhan'tar, Luke is described as a malestorm of force energy, and shocked the likes of Jacen and Jaina with his incredible speed and ferociety; essentially, he became one with the force and allowed himself to be put into a 'trance' by its power. It's similar to his duel with reborn Sidious upon the Eclipse, when the entire light side of the force and the extreme battle meditation offered by his sister and nephew empowered him to a similar degree; however, this time, he is doing it himself, and is displaying power greater than anything Bane could even come close to displaying during his lifetime.

Most of that is unsupported nonsense. No indication is given whatsoever that would suggest he was channelling the entire lightside of the Force or anything. And while he clearly awed Jacen and Jaina, they were relatively still pretty unimpressive at the time. Jacen only really got especially powerful after his five year journey, and Jaina not until the LotF era. Meanwhile, they were still capable of seeing Luke, which can't quite be said for Kas'im and Bane, and most importantly, the entire scene featured a Battle meld empowered Luke. None of what he performed was done under his own power.

As you fail to see that, you're absolutely blind and cannot see the most obivious thing in Star Wars history. Now, I'm going to take the advice of my wise comrade, Ivalice, and stop debating with you. You obiviously cannot see the obivious, and none can point it out to you, either.

You're absolutely right Sidi-Boy, I can't quite see the "obivious," mainly due to the fact that it's not even a word.

You probably mentioned this already HomoSuperior, but what specific examples are you talking about when you say that Bane is "able to use the Force on a planetary scale, or alternatively a subatomic scale"?

He used the Force on a planetary level when he and the BoD joined their power together to ravage Ruusan. Basically, they all fed him their power, and he absorbed it, contained it, and then redirected it across the planet.

As for using the Force on a subatomic scale, when he was constructing a holocron in RoT, to ensure that each chrystalline strand fit perfectly into place within the matrix, he had been making thousands of precise subatomic alterations with the Force.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
He used the Force on a planetary level when he and the BoD joined their power together to ravage Ruusan. Basically, they all fed him their power, and he absorbed it, contained it, and then redirected it across the planet.

As for using the Force on a subatomic scale, when he was constructing a holocron in RoT, to ensure that each chrystalline strand fit perfectly into place within the matrix, he had been making thousands of precise subatomic alterations with the Force.

Damn Noobaris, you just don't give up do you? You're already hitting the big Four Oh (bans, not age).

For the record, it's well into the hundreds.

By the way, since when did you start rolling with the invisible mode?

Good idea, truejedi.

And while I have no will to engage in some long debate with you, Nebaris, I'd just like you to know that I like Bane far more than I like Luke, who is possibly the most boring character in Star Wars history. The fact is, Luke is logically the most powerful character in Star Wars; everyone, except for you, had already realized that. It's unfortunate, and it's annoying, but Luke is absolutely above Bane. GL wrote Luke as the most powerful character in Star Wars.

Now, I'm not saying that he automatically "owns" every character in the saga- some characters, as Jacen had proven, can put up a decent fight against Luke, but I'd say his immense raw power and attunement to the force, as well as considerable mastery, puts him in a position that he can defeat nigh every single character in a force duel. However, the difference between him and the people next in the list of most powerful dewds in sabers is probably smaller, from what I've seen.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Good idea, truejedi.

And while I have no will to engage in some long debate with you, Nebaris, I'd just like you to know that I like Bane far more than I like Luke, who is possibly the most boring character in Star Wars history. The fact is, Luke is logically the most powerful character in Star Wars; everyone, except for you, had already realized that. It's unfortunate, and it's annoying, but Luke is absolutely above Bane. GL wrote Luke as the most powerful character in Star Wars.

Now, I'm not saying that he automatically "owns" every character in the saga- some characters, as Jacen had proven, can put up a decent fight against Luke, but I'd say his immense raw power and attunement to the force, as well as considerable mastery, puts him in a position that he can defeat nigh every single character in a force duel. However, the difference between him and the people next in the list of most powerful dewds in sabers is probably smaller, from what I've seen.

Don't feed the troll sidi-boy. It is seriously very hard to reason with him, if he wants things done his way then let it be.

I simply said some stuff to clariy that I am not what Nebaris called 'morons and fanboys'; it's simple objectivity, as anyone with half a brain (if he's non-biased) can see that NJO Luke > Bane.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
The fact is, Luke is logically the most powerful character in Star Wars; everyone, except for you, had already realized that.

Which is why he (NJO+ Luke) got completely outclassed by no less than three other Force Users from his own era?

1. Sekot, who was capable of knocking both NJO Luke and his entire Jedi party completely unconscious in one attack.

2. Lord Nyax, who was able to mind control NJO Luke and two other Jedi all at the same time.

3. UnuThul, who essentially did the same (to DN Luke, though it was minus the other Jedi).

Really, it took all three of NJO Luke, Mara Jade, and Tahiri to take down Lord Nyax, and even then he was still kicking their ass all over the place, only falling to a surprise attack. As for UnuThul, Luke was only capable of contending with him after his power source (the Killik colony) had been severely diminished.

So really, how can you honestly believe him to be the most powerful Force User ever when he gets his ass solidly outclassed by multiple Force Users within his own era?

Honestly, Nihilus, Sion, Bane, the two living planets (Sekot and Yuzhan'tar), Lord Nyax and UnuThul should all realistically be placed above him.

He's not unstoppable, and he's not unmatched.

And no, you're not a moron, but you're easily the most biased Sidious fanboy I've ever come across. Literally miles beyond Gideon or Lightsnake, and they can be some of the most biased members here.

He used the Force on a planetary level when he and the BoD joined their power together to ravage Ruusan. Basically, they all fed him their power, and he absorbed it, contained it, and then redirected it across the planet.

I am not sure why you see this as huge evidence of Bane's power, it is hardly even more impressive than what Dorsk 81 did, just channel the force.
Which is why he (NJO+ Luke) got completely outclassed by no less than three other Force Users from his own era?

1. Sekot, who was capable of knocking both NJO Luke and his entire Jedi party completely unconscious in one attack.

2. Lord Nyax, who was able to mind control NJO Luke and two other Jedi all at the same time.

3. UnuThul, who essentially did the same (to DN Luke, though it was minus the other Jedi).

Really, it took all three of NJO Luke, Mara Jade, and Tahiri to take down Lord Nyax, and even then he was still kicking their ass all over the place, only falling to a surprise attack. As for UnuThul, Luke was only capable of contending with him after his power source (the Killik colony) had been severely diminished.

So really, how can you honestly believe him to be the most powerful Force User ever when he gets his ass solidly outclassed by multiple Force Users within his own era?

Honestly, Nihilus, Sion, Bane, the two living planets (Sekot and Yuzhan'tar), Lord Nyax and UnuThul should all realistically be placed above him.

He's not unstoppable, and he's not unmatched.


Well, Bane gets completely outclassed by someone from his era (Sirak). Of course, no one would say that Sirak is the most powerful of the sith era. Bane becomes much more powerful, later defeats Sirak, and fights many intense battles against formidable opponents, all of which shows Bane to be extremely powerful. Luke's situation is very similar.
Some remarks on your list...
2) I believe that Nyax is very underestimated. Ahead of Luke in his prime though, no. Some things to remember: You mention how Nyax only fell to a surprise attack. Having the element of surprise is very important in using a force attack. Think of how easily Luke owns Jacen in Inferno when he attacks without lifting a finger or giving Jacen any time to put up a resistance. Yet he is not able to do this later in the book when Jacen is prepared, despite Luke seeing his son tortured. Think of how Luke blocks Unuthul's killik powered force push in the Swarm War, yet is easily pushed by Jacen in Inferno, because Luke thinks Jacen will use lightning. It is no different in this instance. Luke does not know Nyax's mind control attack is coming, so he is controlled. Once Luke knows that Nyax has this trick, Nyax is unable to control him, as Luke demonstrates in their battle. Also, Nyax is really stupid. He shows this by ignoring the attack that Tahiri makes on him, despite feeling the pain it causes him. Finally, Luke is far from his prime at this point. He still has many more battles with the vong, killiks, and the sith to fight.

3) I don't remember Unuthul ever doing anything near what Nyax did. I remember him trying to influence Luke, but not gaining complete control (I might be misremembering). Regardless, Luke demonstrates that he is more powerful in his battle with Unuthul. And I don't believe in judging character's power on how they perform while using the force potential of others. Otherwise, even Dorsk 81 would be up there with Bane, because he force pushed an entire fleet.

Finally, why Nihilus and Sion? I've already written a huge post, so I won't go into detail about how I think Luke is better, but why do you think they are so powerful?