Originally posted by fangirl101
Even if one could use the rock of ages, since technically it did happen, to orion, the jla, etc, how would hank henshaw do what the atom did? not many people or things can shrink down far enough to ride on a light particle? and his field in that was uber strong. unbreakable.
He is master of technology on all levels. Entire planets can be his body, and nanobots. But a photon is pretty damn small.
Originally posted by Avlon
He claims I don't listen to him and I claim the same of him. If he wants to run with illogical rants of DS winning 10/10 is fine with me if he wants to take that route.Going by the official rules, It states that [B]feats are not allowed. I simply brought up the method of death and it turned into a convoluted back and forth where a simple answer to the question was all that was needed.[/B]
It's not like I brought up an elseworlds version of Darkseid. It's the same on from the main continuity (same history..etc) that branched off by 1 decision.
All I asked for was reasonable doubt as to why that method wouldn't work. That is what I continue to ask for.
If anything, characters get stronger with time and resistant to past attacks instead of the other way around.
"No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed."
Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually the rule doesn't even mention the word "feats" until the last sentence(and I know for a fact that sentence is a relatively recent addition). The rule's primary focus is that no non-canon SOURCES are allowed for evidence..."No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed."
Even this rule says things like "usually" and "some cases" as not to completely cement anything into stone.
It also goes into feats....no feats have been used. A possible method of death has been named.
If we choose to go by whats canon and only what's on panel then say..SS can never reproduce kryptonite since he has never used it on panel. Batman can make Darkseid bleed, and Black Panther can armbar SS....etc. Are these really more feasable things to debate with?
In that same direct future, MM was killed by destroying his atoms one at a time, and Superman committed suicide. Are these things out of the question and impossible ways of these characters dying?
Hence, the whole, is it within reasonable doubt?
If anyone else wants to discuss this, the PM option is available.
Originally posted by AvlonA possible method of death isnt admissible. Thats the point. Just as his gds feats arent admissable. Your argument stems from his head can be severed in any of these realities just the same kind of thing. But maybe the Darkseid of that universe has survived far worse things and wouldnt have put himself in that situation. it didnt happen to the main Darkseid so it isnt admissible. The point is there are too many variables and we must stick to one universe. 🙂
Even this rule says things like "usually" and "some cases" as not to completely cement anything into stone.It also goes into feats....no feats have been used. A [b]possible
method of death has been named.If we choose to go by whats canon and only what's on panel then say..SS can never reproduce kryptonite since he has never used it on panel. Batman can make Darkseid bleed, and Black Panther can armbar SS....etc. Are these really more feasable things to debate with?
In that same direct future, MM was killed by destroying his atoms one at a time, and Superman committed suicide. Are these things out of the question and impossible ways of these characters dying?
Hence, the whole, is it within reasonable doubt?
If anyone else wants to discuss this, the PM option is available. [/B]
Originally posted by Avlon
Even this rule says things like "usually" and "some cases" as not to completely cement anything into stone.It also goes into feats....no feats have been used. A [b]possible
method of death has been named.[/B]
You seem to think I'm saying DS wins here or that Rock of Ages isn't valid and I'm not. All I was doing was correcting the claim that the rule focused on what feats are allowed when that's not the case. It's the source of the "evidence"(whatever it may be) that determines whether or not any particular piece of evidence is valid, not the evidence itself.
As you said the rules leave room for exceptions and you may be right about the Rock of Ages being one of them, I wasn't trying to make that call though.
Originally posted by Avlon
If we choose to go by whats canon and only what's on panel then say..SS can never reproduce kryptonite since he has never used it on panel. Batman can make Darkseid bleed, and Black Panther can armbar SS....etc. Are these really more feasable things to debate with?
We know Surfer can create K-nite because...
A. DC energy manipulators of sufficient skill have replicated it successfully to use on Supes in the past.
B. Radioactive Man was able to create it successfully in the "neutral enviorment" found in CANON JLA/Avengers crossover.
C. Surfer's skills at energy manipulation surpasses Radioactive Man's by a fair share.
We know Batman making DS bleed doesn't make sense because...
A. DS has taken a puch from Supes without bleeding
B. We know a punch from Supes delivers more force than a kick from Batman.
We know the Surfer/armbar incident is BS because...
A. Black Panther can't break/injure "metal" like that even if it is in the shape of an arm.
B. The writer himself admitted that he was all but clueless to Surfer's character and he realized later that he made a mistake.
Originally posted by Avlon
In that same direct future, MM was killed by destroying his atoms one at a time, and Superman committed suicide. Are these things out of the question and impossible ways of these characters dying?
Originally posted by Avlon
Hence, the whole, is it within [b]reasonable doubt? [/B]
Think about it, in the Spiderman/PC Superman crossover both characters acted the way they normally act and weren't specifically stated or shown to be any more/less powerful than their mainstream counterparts right? So does that mean I can use that particular crossover as evidence that if Surfer charged his body with Red Solar energy that he could wail on Supes physically? I mean if a class 10 like Spidey can knock Supes for a loop charged up like that then a charged up class 100+ like Surfer should take PC Supes's head off with a single punch right?
And again I'm not saying that Rock of Ages is or isn't valid because I couldn't care less about the arc, I'm just pointing out why others are arguing against it so vehemently.
Originally posted by jadervasonIt isnt usable. The main Darkseid met and fought the main Cyborg and toasted him and then freed him and kicked him off of apokolips.
So.It seems that Darkseid may or may not have a brain that may or may not be subject to attack from microscopic invaders. I really don't think Henshaw would ever use this, because if you can get willhunters through Darkseid's skin the way he got through Hal Jordan's, chances are you've already won.
Originally posted by jadervason
Darkseid got a free swing and couldn't take him down. He can't kill Doomsday or Henshaw at a distance.You want to call Henshaw an idiot for ignoring Darkseid? Which fool turned his back on Doomsday?
Originally posted by darthgoober
You seem to think I'm saying DS wins here or that Rock of Ages isn't valid and I'm not. All I was doing was correcting the claim that the rule focused on what feats are allowed when that's not the case. It's the source of the "evidence"(whatever it may be) that determines whether or not any particular piece of evidence is valid, not the evidence itself.
I didn't think that you really chose a side. It was however a good opportunity to view the rules and what is acceptable.
Originally posted by darthgoober
As you said the rules leave room for exceptions and you may be right about the Rock of Ages being one of them, I wasn't trying to make that call though.
Not a problem. Glad you can wade through the forum bs to at least be open minded and civil about it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Sticking with what's canon and sticking strictly with what you've seen on panel are two entirely different things.We know Surfer can create K-nite because...
A. DC energy manipulators of sufficient skill have replicated it successfully to use on Supes in the past.
B. Radioactive Man was able to create it successfully in the "neutral enviorment" found in CANON JLA/Avengers crossover.
C. Surfer's skills at energy manipulation surpasses Radioactive Man's by a fair share.
We know Batman making DS bleed doesn't make sense because...
A. DS has taken a puch from Supes without bleeding
B. We know a punch from Supes delivers more force than a kick from Batman.
We know the Surfer/armbar incident is BS because...
A. Black Panther can't break/injure "metal" like that even if it is in the shape of an arm.
B. The writer himself admitted that he was all but clueless to Surfer's character and he realized later that he made a mistake.
I agree with all of the above, hence the whole "Reasonable doubt" thing I've been talking about. Even with your examples, opponents can still pull the "what's on panel" card. I said a long time ago that Darkseid gets plenty of wins, I also said Henshaw can get a few. I found that particular method of death interesting (personally, I find it better than being punched through the chest as it's more creative and probably a hell of a lot tougher to pull off) so it was brought up as a possibility. I doubt it had to be turned into a multi-page debate.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Of course not because there's no canon evidence that suggest those are low showings. On the other hand DS losing to the Atom and Green arrow is both non-canon AND a low showing, and that's probably why Mungi has a problem with it.
I don't think anyone was saying "hey! green arrow and Atom beats ds 10/10!" because of that particular arc. To me, this is a difference between using a parallel universe as canon vs the method of how he was killed.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I understand the case you're trying to make, but your efforts are doomed to failure. Unless the writer is an absolute moron, he's always going to make the dialogue, character power levels, and flow of action of a non-canon book resemble the canon material of the period unless there's a specific difference between the canon and non-canon that's being explored in the story. But the fact that a non-canon source "seems" like a canon source doesn't make it a viable piece of evidence, especially when you're talking about a low showing like DS and the Atom.
If you think about it, everyone here takes high and low showings of their characters and makes what they will of it. I remember a debate a while back, where you threw the idea out of Surfer using Radion. We've never seen anyone really create the stuff, nonetheless the idea was interesting.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Think about it, in the Spiderman/PC Superman crossover both characters acted the way they normally act and weren't specifically stated or shown to be any more/less powerful than their mainstream counterparts right? So does that mean I can use that particular crossover as evidence that if Surfer charged his body with Red Solar energy that he could wail on Supes physically? I mean if a class 10 like Spidey can knock Supes for a loop charged up like that then a charged up class 100+ like Surfer should take PC Supes's head off with a single punch right?
PC Supes could sneeze both of them away along with their galaxy. Trust me though, I know what you mean. It falls into the same category as say, Venom and Supes. However, that falls into the reasonable doubt category, just as BP and SS does.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And again I'm not saying that Rock of Ages is or isn't valid because I couldn't care less about the arc, I'm just pointing out why others are arguing against it so vehemently.
Not a problem. I appreciate that you debated it from an objective viewpoint and came out respectfully.
Originally posted by fangirl101
according to darksied, he thought doomsday was dead. now how could doomsday fool darksied on his very own planet? that is the question. were darksied's cosmic senses off? he said doomsday was beyond death? what does this mean?
I don't know, but it's safe to say he won't be doing it again.
Originally posted by jadervasonBecause he thought he was defeated. That was quite a foolish thing to do. But he didnt turn his back on him twice and thats what Henshaw did. he is an even bigger fool is my point.
Darkseid got a free swing and couldn't take him down. He can't kill Doomsday or Henshaw at a distance.You want to call Henshaw an idiot for ignoring Darkseid? Which fool turned his back on Doomsday?