Exile vs Revan

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
where does it say rituals because as i recall it was simply stated as force techniques

and traya wasn't referring to just Nihilus's force drain either she said There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense.

techniques as in more than one.

I know that Kotor2 exile is more powerful than she was in the mando wars but it doesn't matter because Revan post kotor is still her superior.

But the quote was in direct relation to what Nihilus did to her, it has no relation to Revan unless you want to make baseless assumptions (the common practice of Revan fans).

"Techniques" mean what exactly? Bane was a neophyte, nothing he said about Revan's holocron carries any weight. Add the fact that all we know about the holocrons is a few references about Sith rituals and you've got no supportive let alone definitive evidence.

Furthermore if we're talking Kotor 2 Exile strictly, she' got just as much chance of beating Revan as Revan has in beating her. The Exile has faced all manner of powerful force users, least of which a virtual immortal. Speaking objectively as I can, there's no reason why she couldn't be able to defeat Revan (he's no Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin)

I don't think she killed more sith than anyone Revan also killed quite a lot sith during Kotor but again all of that is in game

Revan also always had help from party members, who probably killed a far share of Sith themselves.
The Exile on the other hand took out a full Sith academy singlehanded as well as two powerful Dark Lords.

Pre Kotor Revan knows force techniques that Darth Bane was afraid to try. and Revan regained all of his memory after the events of Kotor so he would still knows those techniques,

Revan doesn't gain all her memories back and bastila even makes a point of saying that this would be almost impossible to happen. All Revan definately remembered was the Real sith.
And this is pointless as this is Revan on the Star Forge that we're talking about, not Revan after the Star Forge.

There is NO evidence of the Exile being in Revan's league in terms of force mastery.

Except the Exile can learn techniques that Revan cannot, like Force Crush, Kill Zone and Force Enlightenment. Also The Exile has demonstrated more actual mastery ingame, like being able to read minds etc.

The exile is an average jedi who happened to have the ability to create force bonds (learned from Revan).

The Exile was forming Force bonds before the mando wars even began, and likely before she knew Revan.
The Exile was only average Before the war. afterward she even says that shes more powerful, and she would know better than you.

I know that Kotor2 exile is more powerful than she was in the mando wars but it doesn't matter because Revan post kotor is still her superior.

Theres no evidence for that assumption. None at all.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Except the Exile can learn techniques that Revan cannot, like Force Crush, Kill Zone and Force Enlightenment. Also The Exile has demonstrated more actual mastery ingame, like being able to read minds etc.

Bullshit,show me one canon event where the Exile used those powers.

Revan>>>>Exile in anything relating to force mastery.

the powers availble INGAME are there so you the player can have more powers to use. and cannonically the exile CANNOT use force cruch because darkside isn't canon.

anyway whatever happens INGAME is NOT cannon because you could have gone through the game as a female lightside with a lightsaber while i went through the whole game using a female lightsideer that used a mandalorian repeater or just my fists does that mean that the exile took on a sith academy full of mediocre sith with just her fists? No. it doean't because thats all in game.

Revan does gain all of HIS memories post kotor

to defeat sion all you have to do is break his will and revan was a master at that he didn't kill the jedi he fought he broke there will and made them fight for his cause.
"Ah, but to make officers turn on their own people, to bomb innocent worlds to make pacts… strong influence, indeed."
―Kreia to the Jedi Exile[src]

nihilus on the other hand is an enigma he mastered on power that drains the force from you and the only person who could beat him as far as i know is the exile because she was a wound in the force (kind of like the vong if you ask me)

With Revan it's all about making assumptions nothing (as far definitive evidence is concerned) says that this fight isn't anything but a 50/50 affair.

Hell if we go by feats (who they faced and what they encountered) the Exile is slightly more impressive. Having done a lot in Kotor 2 including facing three powerful Sith two of whom she faced in quick succession.

Not that it affects the outcome of this fight, but Exodus is right about the Exile demonstrating more canon force abilities than Revan.

Breath control in a toxic environment, beast trick on Onderon, battle precognition (not definitive because it's with the hand maiden). Force sight via Visas. Mind reading with Kreia. Not to mention seven force forms and lightsaber techniques.

It's also interesting to note that two of these lightsaber techniques are canon (Makashi and Shi Choo) and one force form (force channel) because they are part of the narrative and are the default techniques and force forms.

Also it is part of narrative that Exile's force bonding ability makes her powerful and capable of learning force techniques and lightsaber forms quickly as Kreia notes and the Jedi Masters are frightened by. Why should the Exile be penalized for an oversight from Bioware with Kotor 1? (No force forms or lightsaber techniques in their narrative).

Revan is often times hyped up beyond the evidence that is available, until new info is made concerning him, I'm justified in thinking this fight is 50/50.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182

to defeat sion all you have to do is break his will and revan was a master at that he didn't kill the jedi he fought he broke there will and made them fight for his cause.
"Ah, but to make officers turn on their own people, to bomb innocent worlds to make pacts… strong influence, indeed."
―Kreia to the Jedi Exile[src]

I think you need to flip through the chronicles. These Jedi he was breaking were captured, imprisoned and then tortured in a variety of ways - I'd assume - in order to break them.

It should also be noted that this was happening in Malachor 5 where the dark side was extremely strong and Revan and his dark Jedi used the dark side force energy of the planet to help in breaking Jedi, it has nothing to do with Revan's abilities in combat (which is the subject of this thread) or any kind of charisma on his part.

The only reason Sion's will was broken was because he was obsessed with pleasing Traya (who broke him once before) and he believed that beating the Exile would please her.

Once the Exile proved herself capable of matching him in combat, all she needed to do was reveal to him the truth, which was that Traya would never care for him as she did the Exile and that ultimately, regardless of the outcome, the Exile was Traya's true apprentice.

The Exile had to outfight or match Sion first it wasn't an automatic victory.

Originally posted by Allankles
With Revan it's all about making assumptions nothing (as far definitive evidence is concerned) says that this fight isn't anything but a 50/50 affair.

Hell if we go by feats (who they faced and what they encountered) the Exile is slightly more impressive. Having done a lot in Kotor 2 including facing three powerful Sith two of whom she faced in quick succession.

Breath control in a toxic environment, beast trick on Onderon, battle precognition (not definitive because it's with the hand maiden). Force sight via Visas. Mind reading with Kreia. Not to mention seven force forms and lightsaber techniques.

It's also interesting to note that two of these lightsaber techniques are canon (Makashi and Shi Choo) and one force form (force channel) because they are part of the narrative and are the default techniques and force forms.

Also it is part of narrative that Exile's force bonding ability makes her powerful and capable of learning force techniques and lightsaber forms quickly as Kreia notes and the Jedi Masters are frightened by. Why should the Exile be penalized for an oversight from Bioware with Kotor 1? (No force forms or lightsaber techniques in their narrative).

Revan is often times hyped up beyond the evidence that is available, until new info is made concerning him, I'm justified in thinking this fight is 50/50. [/B]

No, you're really not and you haven't proven it with any kind of argument.

Originally posted by Allankles

It should also be noted that this was happening in Malacchor 5 where the dark side was extremely strong and Revan and his dark Jedi used the dark side force energy of the planet to help in breaking Jedi, it has nothing to do with Revan's abilities in combat (which is the subject of this thread). [/B]

I love how you make random, unfounded, bullshit assumptions.

double post

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
There's NOTHING that proves the Exile is in Revan's league.

Except the circumstances were 90% gameplay mechanics. By feats, Revan almost destroyed the Republic, and then killed a Star Force powered Malak with his own abilities.

The Exile beat a Malachor 5 empowered Sion (which confounded the immortal) and a Malachor empowered Traya. We can all play that game.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except what you just mentioned was all either gameplay mechanics or basic force techniques. The exile has shown nothing to put her anywhere near Revan in the force department.

Ok. I'm trying to get you to mention where these force abilities have manifested themselves as combat effective techniques and then continue to wait for you to realize that Nihilus (even while weakened) was still the Exile superior in the force and Traya also had impressive combat effective force abilities.

We can assume Revan's force abilities will make a difference but there's nothing to suggest that they'd make him superior to the Exile in a fight, because the Exile has faced an opponent that was definitely her superior in the force (Nihilus) and prevailed.

We don't know if Revan is the Exile superior in the force because they are on the same level in terms of feats and combat related evidence. 50/50 scenario.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, her learning the techniques are a result of gameplay mechanics.

Of course they formed part of the gameplay, but they were still part of the narrative which makes them canon. The feat abilities and force powers are purely gameplay.

The force bonding and the speed of learning the techniques were a big part of the narrative and the reason why the Exile was very powerful in Kotor 2.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revan was a master of force bonding. Again, your arguments are pitiful when it comes to the exile seeing as how most of what you mentioned are gameplay mechanics. Now your excuse is Bioware's inabilities to cater to your fanboyism?

When did this development occur? Since when was Revan a master of force bonding and how come this apparent mastery has never surfaced in any narrative? And gameplay mechanics are gameplay mechanics, I've clearly pointed out to you that the abilities I've mentioned were part of the narrative, the mechanics are irrelevant.

What excuses? Did my point fly right over your head? Bioware didn't think to consider putting in lightsaber forms or force forms in their narrative. And forget the gameplay please, we know what the gameplay is, I'm talking about narrative/story.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
[BNo, you're really not and you haven't proven it with any kind of argument. [/B]

You're irrational. Revan = zero combat related force feats.

Sexy, do you actually think that you're making logical arguments, or have you realised that you aren't but are just too stubborn to stop?

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Sexy, do you actually think that you're making logical arguments, or have you realised that you aren't but are just too stubborn to stop?

You would have valid points if you had any comprehension of logical arguments. Seeing as how you've been banned more than 40 times and have still yet to win a debate, I find your post hilarious.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Exile beat a Malachor 5 empowered Sion (which confounded the immortal) and a Malachor empowered Traya. We can all play that game.

2. Nothing suggests Traya was going all out against her star pupil.

Ok. I'm trying to get you to mention where these force abilities have manifested themselves as combat effective techniques and then continue to wait for you to realize that Nihilus (even while weakened) was still the Exile superior in the force and Traya also had impressive combat effective force abilities.

We can assume Revan's force abilities will make a difference but there's nothing to suggest that they'd make him superior to the Exile in a fight, because the Exile has faced an opponent that was definitely her superior in the force (Nihilus) and prevailed.

We don't know if Revan is the Exile superior in the force because they are on the same level in terms of feats and combat related evidence. 50/50 scenario.

The force bonding and the speed of learning the techniques were a big part of the narrative and the reason why the Exile was very powerful in Kotor 2.

When did this development occur? Since when was Revan a master of force bonding and how come this apparent mastery has never surfaced in any narrative? And gameplay mechanics are gameplay mechanics, I've clearly pointed out to you that the abilities I've mentioned were part of the narrative, the mechanics are irrelevant.

What excuses? Did my point fly right over your head? Bioware didn't think to consider putting in lightsaber forms or force forms in their narrative. And forget the gameplay please, we know what the gameplay is, I'm talking about narrative/story.

You're irrational. Revan = zero combat related force feats. [/B]

You're an exile fanboy. Revan>Exile.

You're irrational. Revan = zero combat related force feats

Lol wut?

One can plainly assume that with such a complete force mastery and knowledge that Revan has been described as having, comes the ability to direct the force in an offensive manner, given all we know of the man and his ridiculously powerful connection to the force (I'd put it on Yoda/Kar Vastor/Starkiller the Secret Apprentice level, since that seems to be the definitive tier below "Luke Skywalker"😉 Assuming that he can't is pure idiocy.

Given that simple force pushes from individuals on that scale are enough to kill, and given that Revan was a seasoned combat veteran who fought in two back to back wars, faced the best the Mandalorians had to offer and won (He kills the Mandalore) and develop specific ways for even non-force sensitives to fight and kill Jedi, this all coupled with the facts that he beat Malak (Pre mind wipe) in a duel for Sith supremacy and Malak in turn murked the best the Jedi at the time had to offer in a duel (the famed leader of the Jedi Guardians: Kavar) means his skill with a blade is pretty fierce to say the least, also dueling is 50% force power/mastery as Path of Destruction points out and Revan has that in abundance. All this makes Revan a most formidable killing machine.

Moreover, as its been stated previously Revan has plundered the planet wide underground cities of Malachor learning and taking Sith artifacts and knowledge at his leisure. He also ransacked Korriban when it was still worth a shit. What this means is he has a pretty deep understanding of the Dark Side and its numerous abilities which the few that we've seen present themselves have been insanely dangerous: The Force Drain, The Force Storm, Sions power , The Sith's camouflage. Once again to assume he WOULDN'T know these things are foolish. And canon actually says he knows the force storm.

Revan has displayed a greater force mastery then that of Darth Caedus whom was stated to be stronger then Vader, when Caedus attempts to force information out of Fetts daughters mind he fails and ends up giving her an aneurysm. Revan mimics this with the Rataka on a mass scale and literally forces and entire language system into their (their being the entire race) minds, that type of force mastery and power rival feats Luke Skywalker has pulled off.

Revan is simply too strong in the force for a relative unknown like The Exile, even when untrained the kind of power that Revan represents is extremely dangerous, look at Kar Vastor for example, whom was stated to be on Yoda and Anakins level in terms of raw force power, he beat the ever loving shit out of Mace Windu whom was a Jedi for 40+ years, master of its deadliest form of combat: Vaapad, and beat the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith Palpatine in a duel.

Its on you to prove that the Exile can even stand against Revan given the apparent vast difference in their power.

(Note I'm not saying the Exile is weak or anything I'm just saying she's no Revan, just as Caedus is stronger then Vader and was the second strongest Jedi in the NJO, he's still no Luke.)

Sion, Atris, and Kreia are her only true tests of skill and each of those mentioned would lose to Revan.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Lol wut?

One can plainly assume that with such a complete force mastery and knowledge that Revan has been described as having, comes the ability to direct the force in an offensive manner, given all we know of the man and his ridiculously powerful connection to the force (I'd put it on Yoda/Kar Vastor/Starkiller the Secret Apprentice level, since that seems to be the definitive tier below "Luke Skywalker"😉 Assuming that he can't is pure idiocy.

And how is this definitive evidence? I haven't doubted Revan's force abilities (reread my posts) merely questioned where you derive these ideas about for his apparent "force level" let alone the level of his combat abilities.

Stating that he's on Kar Vastor/Yoda/Starkiller level is pure bs, seeing as those characters have definitive combat feats that give us a good platform with which to estimate their combat level. Revan has no such evidence, hell everything about his knowledge hasn't manifested into anything tangible.

His force abilities can be reduced to a few sentences form a couple of characters. The only thing that speaks for Revan's abilities in a fight are the results of his biggest fight (Malak) and that doesn't put him above the Exile (who was equally an experienced war veteran etc etc).

Hell, even suggesting that Revan could beat someone like Dooku (with his impressive combat displays) is baseless speculation.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

Given that simple force pushes from individuals on that scale are enough to kill, and given that Revan was a seasoned combat veteran who fought in two back to back wars, faced the best the Mandalorians
had to offer and won (He kills the Mandalore) and develop specific ways for even non-force sensitives to fight and kill Jedi,

You do realize that Mandalore acknowledged the Exile as being an equal of Revan? Beyond that we know - from Kreia's words - that the Exile was feared by the Mandalorians during the Mando war. As far as Revan's elite soldiers are concerned, non of what they were taught (judging from what Atton said about them) involved combat prowess. So it doesn't affect a straight fight between Revan and the Exile. You're putting in a lot of irrelevant info.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

this all coupled with the facts that he beat Malak (Pre mind wipe) in a duel for Sith supremacy and Malak in turn murked the best the Jedi at the time had to offer in a duel (the famed leader of the Jedi Guardians: Kavar) means his skill with a blade is pretty fierce to say the least, also dueling is 50% force power/mastery as Path of Destruction points out and Revan has that in abundance. All this makes Revan a most formidable killing machine.

That just proves that Malak> Kavar. But we also know that The Exile > Kavar and naturally Revan > Kavar. I hope you're not making some weak attempt at ABC logic? It doesn't prove anything about Revan's skill with a blade in relation to the Exile. And please note I haven't made any argument about the Exile's skills.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Moreover, as its been stated previously Revan has plundered the planet wide underground cities of Malachor learning and taking Sith artifacts and knowledge at his leisure. He also ransacked Korriban when it was still worth a shit. What this means is he has a pretty deep understanding of the Dark Side and its numerous abilities which the few that we've seen present themselves have been insanely dangerous: The Force Drain, The Force Storm, Sions power , The Sith's camouflage. Once again to assume he WOULDN'T know these things are foolish. And canon actually says he knows the force storm.

We no doubt know that Revan was powerful. However the question is what does Revan have that would overwhelm the Exile to a degree that The Exile becomes clearly the inferior combatant?

How has this knowledge manifested itself in any narrative? And to what degree did this knowledge augment his combat abilities t? Plenty of characters have plundered great knowledge (remember Jerec who apparently became omniscient for a short while?). The difference between Kun/Caedus and Revan is that we know the degree of power these characters unlocked, we don't know Revan's or whether this power would clearly make him the Exile's superior.

The degree of power becomes significant because as i said before, both have the same level of combat feats/accomplishments and are in the same era. You almost wish there was a comic with a Kun VS Ulic type of encounter for which to judge them on.

Where is this evidence that this knowledge made Revan a combat demi-god (or something close)? Because all I see (Kotor 1 and Kotor 2) suggest that these two characters are equals albeit with very different backgrounds and reasons for their power.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Revan has displayed a greater force mastery then that of Darth Caedus whom was stated to be stronger then Vader, when Caedus attempts to force information out of Fetts daughters mind he fails and ends up giving her an aneurysm. Revan mimics this with the Rataka on a mass scale and literally forces and entire language system into their (their being the entire race) minds, that type of force mastery and power rival feats Luke Skywalker has pulled off.

I know you're trying to relate force abilities with combat effective force abilities but this doesn't prove anything. I don't want the discussion to get derailed with a pointless argument about what Caedus did to Fett's daughter vs Revan's dealings with the Rakata. Suffice to say they were two different scenarios with different characters and different outcomes.

Anyway I wouldn't put much stock in the whole Caedus> Vader line as I don't see a fully capable Vader losing to Jaina (I know the circumstances). And besides it was just a tagline, it could be significant or it could be pure marketing.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Revan is simply too strong in the force for a relative unknown like The Exile, even when untrained the kind of power that Revan represents is extremely dangerous, look at Kar Vastor for example, whom was stated to be on Yoda and Anakins level in terms of raw force power, he beat the ever loving shit out of Mace Windu whom was a Jedi for 40+ years, master of its deadliest form of combat: Vaapad, and beat the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith Palpatine in a duel.

That's the thing, for me Revan is an unknown himself. Outside of his holcron in POD (which in truth doesn't give us anything about his force level) we've got nothing on Revan's actual force level. He's above Malak who could throttle a couple of nameless Jedi and could control the star forge which requires and unknown amount of force power to control. Given that Revan and Malak were the only notable Sith to try to control the SF, we can't even use that.

As far as Vastor I have the book Shatterpoint and Vastor was very powerful, tossing Windu around with TK which is very difficult to do, but I see nothing to put Revan on Vastor's level.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Its on you to prove that the Exile can even stand against Revan given the apparent vast difference in their power.

(Note I'm not saying the Exile is weak or anything I'm just saying she's no Revan, just as Caedus is stronger then Vader and was the second strongest Jedi in the NJO, he's still no Luke.)

Sion, Atris, and Kreia are her only true tests of skill and each of those mentioned would lose to Revan.

Again, I see no vast differences in their power, that would involve assumptions on my part, assumptions with no real evidence to support them. One was a naturally gifted force user who was a prodigy in his era. The other due to her experiences and her specific gifts gained the ability to expand her force potential. To me they seem like equals, and I would easily and gladly retract this statement if there was more info proving otherwise.

Stating that he's on Kar Vastor/Yoda/Starkiller level is pure bs, seeing as those characters have definitive combat feats that give us a good platform with which to estimate their combat level. Revan has no such evidence, hell everything about his knowledge hasn't manifested into anything tangible.

His force abilities can be reduced to a few sentences form a couple of characters. The only thing that speaks for Revan's abilities in a fight are the results of his biggest fight (Malak) and that doesn't put him above the Exile (who was equally an experienced war veteran etc etc).

Hell, even suggesting that Revan could beat someone like Dooku (with his impressive combat displays) is baseless speculation.

Once again: Lol wut?

- Kreia saying it was as if looking into the heart of the force

- Jolee literally seeing the force swirl around him

- He being called a prodigy by Vandar at the end of KOTOR, and a prodigy as a knight before the mind wipe

- Having the most complete knowledge of the Dark Side of the force that is second only too Palpatine that we know of

- Had the most advanced, highly developed form of Battle Precognition that allowed him to see the outcome of battles months into the future. (Anther thing that puts him above Darth Cadick whose only precognition failed him and lured him into the clutches of Lumiya)

- Having his name be synonymous with power

- Bastila was literally feeling overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of his power

- His force mastery (that you conveniently ignored) that surpasses Caedus whom himself surpassed Vader in terms of force power, who is you know 80% of Darth f*cking Sidious

- Him ripping through the Star Forges defense that were called a match for any Jedi, then beating Bastilla multiple times while she was being constantly revived and amped up by the Star Forge, THEN proceeding to beat Malak at least 2 times in a row while he was empowered by the Star Forge and revived by the life force of dead Jedi.

- Surviving and not being broken by the Dark Side power of Malachor (a PLANET full of raw Dark Side energy, which Kreia was broken by)

- His force bonding ability that he used en mass on his followers according to Kreia

- During his start as Dark Lord the chronicles say his dark power was "tremendous" and only continued to grow, then in KOTOR he's stated as being stronger then he EVER was as the Dark Lord.

- Revan using force storms to slaughter Rataka scouting parties on Lehon

- He slaughters the Sith Academy by himself (showed in KOTOR1, confirmed by Kreia in KOTOR 2)

- His holocron alone was enough in itself to turn Bane from a neophyte to a very dangerous, very powerful Dark Lord

- Sion, the mans whos pull on the force is so strong it holds his dead body together through sheer hate, admits to being his inferiority to Revan, he even goes as far as to give him the honorific "Lord" when he speaks of him, something he DOESN'T do for his current master or any of his peers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVQJwIrswMs&feature=related 2:26

Really now, this is a bit silly, Revan is a Gary Stu, you complaining won't change that fact and as a Gary Stu he extremely powerful with few flaws, to NOT put him in the Yoda/Vastor/Starkiller/ tier is just plain foolish. The mind rape of the Raataka puts him above Mr. Solo whom failed to pull off a similar feat against ONE person, that in itself is enough to place him in the league of the before-mentioned.

As I've stated its on you to PROVE that the Exile is even in his league considering she has nothing in the way of quotes from strong reliable characters that place her power on Revans scale, and all of her solo major victories (Atris, Sion, and Traya) are all foes that are definitively weaker then Revan, she's never faced someone of Revans caliber, what makes you think she has a prayer of a chance in a fight with him?

I can understand not liking the character, but shit, give credit where credit is due, stop being a dense hater, its really lame.

NOTE: I didn't read your second part when I posted this

I know you're trying to relate force abilities with combat effective force abilities but this doesn't prove anything. I don't want the discussion to get derailed with a pointless argument about what Caedus did to Fett's daughter vs Revan's dealings with the Rakata. Suffice to say they were two different scenarios with different characters and different outcomes.

They are very much the same in my eyes: using the force to manipulate the mind and force something IN or OUT, they were both met with opposition: Revan was being attacked by the Raataka and had to force the info in so they could understand him and Fetts daughter was naturally being defiant to the torture Solo was unleashing. The difference is Revans force mastery allowed him to succeed on a mass scale where Solo failed with a single person. The only way you could twist this would be something similar to what Kar Vastor does and makes the language appear in their minds but that doesn't account for Revan understand their language/them still understanding Revan when he comes back post mind wipe.

Anyway I wouldn't put much stock in the whole Caedus> Vader line as I don't see a fully capable Vader losing to Jaina (I know the circumstances). And besides it was just a tagline, it could be significant or it could be pure marketing.

Its in the book, so its canon, however shitty it is, and yes there were ALOT of extenuating circumstances that allowed Jaina to win, part of them being Jacen is a complete f*cking loon and was injured before both the duels.

I know you SEE them as equals but your going to have to offer up some evidence that they actually ARE equals in anyway.

You do realize that Mandalore acknowledged the Exile as being an equal of Revan?

Uh, you do know the current Mandalore (Canderous) regards Revan as the single greatest warrior ever...