Originally posted by jumpmann
Yep, if you dislike RIP, then there's no reason for Dan Didio's name to be involved. The story clearly showed the audience the many layers of Morrison's writings and style.If you want to crucify the editor, look at Countdown and One More Day as examples of one screwing up royally.
but if didio did read it, and did greenlight it, then surely at least some of the blame is his?
assuming you're someone who doesn't like RIP, that is...
Originally posted by Raoul
but if didio did read it, and did greenlight it, then surely at least some of the blame is his?assuming you're someone who doesn't like RIP, that is...
Some blame rests on Didio but it remained Morrison's story from the beginning.
Originally posted by jumpmann
Same way you can blame Quesada for Secret Invasion. You let someone run with the reigns since they've already succeeded on a major level. When you prove yourself multiple times like Morrison then I still praise Didio for letting him tell his story the way he wanted it.Some blame rests on Didio but it remained Morrison's story from the beginning.
yeah, i agree, just thought i'd ask lol...
Originally posted by Raoul
thats a bit harsh, imo...johns was told what to do in infinite crisis, hence the end being such a let down, iirc...
morrison was asked to write two of the biggest dc stories of the year, of course didio was going to stick his nose in... i doubt morrison could have done a damn thing to change it...
Harsh but honest. 😉
Maybe this is just me but Morrison's insanity can sometimes get the best of him.
I mean most of it shows the genius of his work in titles like All Star Superman, which like many of the best works of Alan Moore is able to be understood but is also much deeper than first appears. For instance, every time you read Watchmen you get a new perspective out of it.
However, sometimes all that crazy can go a bit to his head I think and he ends up writing stories like R.I.P. which you can tell have a good idea in them, but are too discombobulated to fully make sense of. I donno, maybe it will all make sense at the end and we'll all be slapping our foreheads and saying "duh!," but as it stands right now I don't think anyone but Morrison himself understands whats going on.
I seriously don't understand what's confusing.
I'm not trying to be pretentious here, regardless of the fact that I am an arrogant bastard, as the beer I'm currently drinking proclaims.
I seriously just don't understand what there is to be confused about. Batman comes under attack by a well coordinated strike by a powerful group of people, lead by a mysterious individual. Is it confusion over who Dr. Hurt is that is the problem?
It doesn't matter who Hurt is, as Morrison makes exceedingly clear- he could be the Devil, he could be Thomas Wayne, or he could just be some actor. All of these are possibilities, and none of them change how the story works. Hurt and the Black Glove soften Gotham's criminals so Batman begins to lose his edge, and then launch a psychic attack on Batman, which allows Morrison to go into a fun exploration of the idea of what actually BEING Batman would be like- a human, albeit a pretty damn impressive one, who experienced the seventy-plus years of insane adventures and tragedies he had would be fairly messed up. Simultaneously, he develops a relationship with Jezebel Jet, seeming to fall in love with her remarkably quickly.
The mental attack on Batman causes Batman to access a mental failsafe he created, because he's ****in* Batman and he prepares for everything. It's like starting your computer in Safe Mode after it has a crash. Batman turns the tables on the Black Glove, who planned to break Batman once and for all in Arkaham, revealing that his relationship with Jet was an act, and that while he didn't know exactly what the Glove would do to him, he was ready for freaking everything, because, again, he's the goddamn Batman, and that's just what he does.
Honestly, what's not to get? It's a story about how awesome Batman is, that even when faced with the ultimate threat, he somehow always finds a way to win. Perfect, chilling Batman story. How on earth could you find it confusing?
Originally posted by tjcoady👆
I seriously don't understand what's confusing.I'm not trying to be pretentious here, regardless of the fact that I am an arrogant bastard, as the beer I'm currently drinking proclaims.
I seriously just don't understand what there is to be confused about. Batman comes under attack by a well coordinated strike by a powerful group of people, lead by a mysterious individual. Is it confusion over who Dr. Hurt is that is the problem?
It doesn't matter who Hurt is, as Morrison makes exceedingly clear- he could be the Devil, he could be Thomas Wayne, or he could just be some actor. All of these are possibilities, and none of them change how the story works. Hurt and the Black Glove soften Gotham's criminals so Batman begins to lose his edge, and then launch a psychic attack on Batman, which allows Morrison to go into a fun exploration of the idea of what actually BEING Batman would be like- a human, albeit a pretty damn impressive one, who experienced the seventy-plus years of insane adventures and tragedies he had would be fairly messed up. Simultaneously, he develops a relationship with Jezebel Jet, seeming to fall in love with her remarkably quickly.
The mental attack on Batman causes Batman to access a mental failsafe he created, because he's ****in* Batman and he prepares for everything. It's like starting your computer in Safe Mode after it has a crash. Batman turns the tables on the Black Glove, who planned to break Batman once and for all in Arkaham, revealing that his relationship with Jet was an act, and that while he didn't know exactly what the Glove would do to him, he was ready for freaking everything, because, again, he's the goddamn Batman, and that's just what he does.
Honestly, what's not to get? It's a story about how awesome Batman is, that even when faced with the ultimate threat, he somehow always finds a way to win. Perfect, chilling Batman story. How on earth could you find it confusing?
They're pretending it's confusing, so they have something to complain about.
Originally posted by tjcoady
I seriously don't understand what's confusing.I'm not trying to be pretentious here, regardless of the fact that I am an arrogant bastard, as the beer I'm currently drinking proclaims.
I seriously just don't understand what there is to be confused about. Batman comes under attack by a well coordinated strike by a powerful group of people, lead by a mysterious individual. Is it confusion over who Dr. Hurt is that is the problem?
It doesn't matter who Hurt is, as Morrison makes exceedingly clear- he could be the Devil, he could be Thomas Wayne, or he could just be some actor. All of these are possibilities, and none of them change how the story works. Hurt and the Black Glove soften Gotham's criminals so Batman begins to lose his edge, and then launch a psychic attack on Batman, which allows Morrison to go into a fun exploration of the idea of what actually BEING Batman would be like- a human, albeit a pretty damn impressive one, who experienced the seventy-plus years of insane adventures and tragedies he had would be fairly messed up. Simultaneously, he develops a relationship with Jezebel Jet, seeming to fall in love with her remarkably quickly.
The mental attack on Batman causes Batman to access a mental failsafe he created, because he's ****in* Batman and he prepares for everything. It's like starting your computer in Safe Mode after it has a crash. Batman turns the tables on the Black Glove, who planned to break Batman once and for all in Arkaham, revealing that his relationship with Jet was an act, and that while he didn't know exactly what the Glove would do to him, he was ready for freaking everything, because, again, he's the goddamn Batman, and that's just what he does.
Honestly, what's not to get? It's a story about how awesome Batman is, that even when faced with the ultimate threat, he somehow always finds a way to win. Perfect, chilling Batman story. How on earth could you find it confusing?
wait. i got that part.
here was me thinking there was something else that i hadn't picked up on...
Originally posted by tjcoady
I seriously don't understand what's confusing.I'm not trying to be pretentious here, regardless of the fact that I am an arrogant bastard, as the beer I'm currently drinking proclaims.
I seriously just don't understand what there is to be confused about. Batman comes under attack by a well coordinated strike by a powerful group of people, lead by a mysterious individual. Is it confusion over who Dr. Hurt is that is the problem?
It doesn't matter who Hurt is, as Morrison makes exceedingly clear- he could be the Devil, he could be Thomas Wayne, or he could just be some actor. All of these are possibilities, and none of them change how the story works. Hurt and the Black Glove soften Gotham's criminals so Batman begins to lose his edge, and then launch a psychic attack on Batman, which allows Morrison to go into a fun exploration of the idea of what actually BEING Batman would be like- a human, albeit a pretty damn impressive one, who experienced the seventy-plus years of insane adventures and tragedies he had would be fairly messed up. Simultaneously, he develops a relationship with Jezebel Jet, seeming to fall in love with her remarkably quickly.
The mental attack on Batman causes Batman to access a mental failsafe he created, because he's ****in* Batman and he prepares for everything. It's like starting your computer in Safe Mode after it has a crash. Batman turns the tables on the Black Glove, who planned to break Batman once and for all in Arkaham, revealing that his relationship with Jet was an act, and that while he didn't know exactly what the Glove would do to him, he was ready for freaking everything, because, again, he's the goddamn Batman, and that's just what he does.
Honestly, what's not to get? It's a story about how awesome Batman is, that even when faced with the ultimate threat, he somehow always finds a way to win. Perfect, chilling Batman story. How on earth could you find it confusing?
Yeah, you been pretty cool about it so I'll be nice.
It's not that the story is confusing it's just not convincing.
A point which I brought earlier about Zur-En-Arrh...its just simply balony. In Batman history there is the Idiot Root Arc. In which a villan known as the Idiot uses the drug to inflict Batman with mental attacks. Yet not once does he even whisper Zur-En-Arrh....
How is that Morrison can remember a character from the silver age...yet he seems to have forgotten a character from the 90s that uses mental attacks? Just doesn't sell.
Throught the story Batman is been out of character. In the ending he says that he's been putting an act all along. Here Morrison wants the reader to understand that Batman was always one step ahead of Dr. Hurt. But then how come he doesn't trap Black Glove in the Batcave? Why go through the Arkham thing when he could have just nab the WHOLE Black Glove in the Batcave? It's just doesn't sell.
Next thing...The Joker what was he doing in this arc? If this Dr. Hurt is sooo clever and a master mind why even invite a chaotic and unpredictable force such as The Joker? He reduce the number of his troops when Joker when on a rampage...does that seem like a clever plan from Dr. Hurt?....doesn't sell.
See, these are some of the things that just don't convince most of us. There are holes in this arc and from what I've seen from people who defend this story is that they try to cover them up.
Add to what Didio is saying...this story will conclude in FC. Why then call this story R.I.P.? Better yet...why not just say "This story will continue in Final Crisis" OR better yet make Batman #681 a Final Crisis Crossover....that didn't happen. Just doesn't sell.
As Grimm22 said it only seems that is Morrison that knows what's going on and we the readers are left to guess. That's not good storytelling...again it just doesn't sell.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Yeah, you been pretty cool about it so I'll be nice.It's not that the story is confusing it's just not convincing.
A point which I brought earlier about Zur-En-Arrh...its just simply balony. In Batman history there is the Idiot Root Arc. In which a villan known as the Idiot uses the drug to inflict Batman with mental attacks. Yet not once does he even whisper Zur-En-Arrh....
How is that Morrison can remember a character from the silver age...yet he seems to have forgotten a character from the 90s that uses mental attacks? Just doesn't sell.
Throught the story Batman is been out of character. In the ending he says that he's been putting an act all along. Here Morrison wants the reader to understand that Batman was always one step ahead of Dr. Hurt. But then how come he doesn't trap Black Glove in the Batcave? Why go through the Arkham thing when he could have just nab the WHOLE Black Glove in the Batcave? It's just doesn't sell.
Next thing...The Joker what was he doing in this arc? If this Dr. Hurt is sooo clever and a master mind why even invite a chaotic and unpredictable force such as The Joker? He reduce the number of his troops when Joker when on a rampage...does that seem like a clever plan from Dr. Hurt?....doesn't sell.
See, these are some of the things that just don't convince most of us. There are holes in this arc and from what I've seen from people who defend this story is that they try to cover them up.
Add to what Didio is saying...this story will conclude in FC. Why then call this story R.I.P.? Better yet...why not just say "This story will continue in Final Crisis" OR better yet make Batman #681 a Final Crisis Crossover....that didn't happen. Just doesn't sell.
As Grimm22 said it only seems that is Morrison that knows what's going on and we the readers are left to guess. That's not good storytelling...again it just doesn't sell.
QFT
Well, asking why Batman didn't use his psychic failsafe that time is like asking why Superman didn't sundip when he was fighting General Zod or something- the writer didn't want him to, the writer didn't think about it, or the story didn't call for it. I mean, sure it doesn't make sense from a "realistic" perspective, but, well, that's what comic books are all about.
With the Batcave attack, Batman didn't know their exact plans- he had no idea how they were going to attack him, or that they would attack in the Batcave. He didn't know the psychic attack was coming. He had no idea what form their attack would take- he just relied on the fact that he believed himself prepared for anything, regardless of how unexpected.
As to the advertising and what it got called, and the fact that it doesn't get called a Final Crisis crossover, I agree with you there. DC Editorial, advertising, and scheduling policy is seven kinds of f*cked up.
"Recent Addition" sounds more likely. I mean, it's not like writers in the '90s invented the idea but never got around to using it. Morrison invented it for story purposes, just like Bob Kane invented the costume for story purposes, or the Batcave, or so on.
I don't really see how the failsafe was just an act though- Batman did end up pretty screwed up before it kicked in and got him through the assault.
Originally posted by tjcoady
"Recent Addition" sounds more likely. I mean, it's not like writers in the '90s invented the idea but never got around to using it. Morrison invented it for story purposes, just like Bob Kane invented the costume for story purposes, or the Batcave, or so on.
I mean within the story. I got the impression he'd only add the failsafe during the missing year.
Originally posted by tjcoady
I don't really see how the failsafe was just an act though- Batman did end up pretty screwed up before it kicked in and got him through the assault.
Well either he was really crazy or he was really not crazy. It's easy to read the story as a Hamlet-esque "Look at me I'm crazy and harmless" but people see to be saying he was actually crazy but actually not crazy at the same time.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well either he was really crazy or he was really not crazy. It's easy to read the story as a Hamlet-esque "Look at me I'm crazy and harmless" but people see to be saying he was actually crazy but actually not crazy at the same time.
To be prepared enough to have a fail safe in case he went crazy is in itself.....crazy 🙂
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I mean within the story. I got the impression he'd only add the failsafe during the missing year.Well either he was really crazy or he was really not crazy. It's easy to read the story as a Hamlet-esque "Look at me I'm crazy and harmless" but people see to be saying he was actually crazy but actually not crazy at the same time.
Personally I thought it drove him to the brink before the 'Zorro in Arkaham' program allowed him to function- definitely not at his most sane, but not out and out insane.