Where did God come from?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
You're correct that I can act like a human being whether I believe in God 's existence or not. In fact, its a mercy that our conscience doesn't demand that a clear or consistent rationale be present before it prompts us to act. (Perhaps our humanity believes in us more than we do it). However, from a big-picture perpective, acting humanely without believing in a transcendent meaning to our humanity is ultimately absurd.

If there is a purely physical explanation for consciousness/sentience, then these things don't really exist as we undertand them to exist. Love, hope, courage, nobility, etc... are biochemical tricks our bodies play on us to help keep our cell tissues fed. That is why I argue that unless these acts have a transcendent referent, they are meaningless. If the universe is merely atoms bumping into one another, then what's the point of talking about justice, or caring for the poor, or loving your wife, or anything? You could never consciously or self-consistently aspire to anything more than your own self-interest.

It's the old "where do you get your morals/meaning if you aren't religious?" argument. It's not really that hard. The fact that you can't fathom it speaks to an incomplete worldview more than anything. Acting humanely without a divine reference is not only possible, but just as rewarding as doing so within a religious framework. If existence is arbitrary and inherently pointless, we all create our own meaning. Some choose to do so through religion, which is an excellent way to appeal to the supernatural to remove the existential angst that flows from realizing our place in the universe. Others simply find meaning through other outlets.

And sentences like "maybe our humanity believes in us more than we do it" don't even begin to make rational sense. Mystical nonsense sounds wonderful when it isn't objectively critiqued. But be prepared to have others call shenanigans when you utter such silly phrases.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm merely making an argument for my own belief.

Good, because you provided no logical backing for it.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Actually the metaphorical "heart" of man isn't his mind. The Greeks and the Hebrews understood it as a separate faculty, one by which man not only contemplates the world, but also invests himself in it.

K. What does that have to do with my point? Your heart doesn't contemplate anything, nor does any organ besides the brain. Turn it into metaphor all you want...my point remains the same. However abstract you make it, you're talking about the mind and its workings, which is a product of evolution and a physical entity.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It's the old "where do you get your morals/meaning if you aren't religious?" argument.

Well, almost. It's more like the "where do you even get the possibility of morality in a self-stated amoral universe without being religious?" argument.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Well, almost. It's more like the "where do you even get the possibility of morality in a self-stated amoral universe without being religious?" argument.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It's not really that hard. The fact that you can't fathom it speaks to an incomplete worldview more than anything. Acting humanely without a divine reference is not only possible, but just as rewarding as doing so within a religious framework. If existence is arbitrary and inherently pointless, we all create our own meaning. Some choose to do so through religion, which is an excellent way to appeal to the supernatural to remove the existential angst that flows from realizing our place in the universe. Others simply find meaning through other outlets.

No sense in re-writing it.

srug

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Well, almost. It's more like the "where do you even get the possibility of morality in a self-stated amoral universe without being religious?" argument.

We humans invented religion in the first place.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I disagree. Survival is the driving force behind all living beings.

And always ends in failure. Bit depressing, that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And always ends in failure. Bit depressing, that.

Really? We all seem to have survived over the last 3.5 billion years. Although we have changed from single celled organisms to humans and other animals, but we have survived.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
You're correct that I can act like a human being whether I believe in God 's existence or not. In fact, its a mercy that our conscience doesn't demand that a clear or consistent rationale be present before it prompts us to act. (Perhaps our humanity believes in us more than we do it). However, from a big-picture perpective, acting humanely without believing in a transcendent meaning to our humanity is ultimately absurd.

If there is a purely physical explanation for consciousness/sentience, then these things don't really exist as we undertand them to exist. Love, hope, courage, nobility, etc... are biochemical tricks our bodies play on us to help keep our cell tissues fed. That is why I argue that unless these acts have a transcendent referent, they are meaningless. If the universe is merely atoms bumping into one another, then what's the point of talking about justice, or caring for the poor, or loving your wife, or anything? You could never consciously or self-consistently aspire to anything more than your own self-interest.

but you are forgetting one very basic thing, if you do these things BECAUSE of a divine entity or FOR a divine entity, then these things als have no meaning as you dont do them sincerely for their own sake{i.e. by loving your wife, you are loving and serving god, not actually LOVING your wife, because love is selfless and directed at the PERSON your in love with and exist only for its own sake and not for the sake of sumthing else. basically you cant love a person sincerely to fulfill any OTHER end[i.e. pleasing or acting on god's morals} } also, isnt the fealing you get and others get as a result of your good actions in themselves, worth anything? are they not self evident and meaning enough for you to do those actions?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Really? We all seem to have survived over the last 3.5 billion years. Although we have changed from single celled organisms to humans and other animals, but we have survived.

But you won't survive. No individual survives.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But you won't survive. No individual survives.

I don't understand what you are talking about. I am alive and therefore I have survived. Am I misunderstanding you?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't understand what you are talking about. I am alive and therefore I have survived. Am I misunderstanding you?

Do you expect to remain in that state forever?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do you expect to remain in that state forever?

Are you referring to the fact that all living things die? If so, then you should keep in mind that death is also a type of survival. If we did not die, we would never change, and if we never changed, then we could not survive on this planet.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If existence is arbitrary and inherently pointless, we all create our own meaning. Some choose to do so through religion, which is an excellent way to appeal to the supernatural to remove the existential angst that flows from realizing our place in the universe. Others simply find meaning through other outlets.

Oh well, DigiMark007, it appears there's nothing but false consciousness and repressed existential angst left for me from here on out...

"Creating your own meaning" sounds too much to me like crafting one's own private reality. But maybe that's just me. Also, how is it comforting or enobling to reflect that you've created a meaning for yourself that is as equally unreal as every other person's? Aren't you essentially saying that you've traded in a mass delusion for a private and self-inflicted one? Every code of honor, even a private one, only functions if the person believes that code to correspond with something higher than the self. Ultimately, we have to decide, whether these "higher" things exist or they don't. If they don't, all codes, private or otherwise, are a waste of the universe's indifferent time.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but you are forgetting one very basic thing, if you do these things BECAUSE of a divine entity or FOR a divine entity, then these things als have no meaning as you dont do them sincerely for their own sake{i.e. by loving your wife, you are loving and serving god, not actually LOVING your wife, because love is selfless and directed at the PERSON your in love with and exist only for its own sake and not for the sake of sumthing else. basically you cant love a person sincerely to fulfill any OTHER end[i.e. pleasing or acting on god's morals} } also, isnt the fealing you get and others get as a result of your good actions in themselves, worth anything? are they not self evident and meaning enough for you to do those actions?

No, I do these things because of their intrinsic worth. The fact that I find "worth" in doing them is my argument that the universe is determined by a personal Good that belies the seeming indifference of physical laws.

The fact that you can love your wife, or your friend isn't an anomoly or a chemical accident, its a key to the meaning of everything.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
No, I do these things because of their intrinsic worth. The fact that I find "worth" in doing them is my argument that the universe is determined by a personal Good that belies the seeming indifference of physical laws.

The fact that you can love your wife, or your friend isn't an anomoly or a chemical accident, its a key to the meaning of everything.

Nothing happen by accident, but that does not mean there is some designer outside of our selves.

Talk about survival!

YouTube video

Originally posted by ushomefree
Talk about survival!

I cannot see anything from youtube. It is blocked on my computer.

At work?

Originally posted by ushomefree
At work?

Can you give me a rundown of your point?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you give me a rundown of your point?

It was a bear fighting a mountain lion or something?

The Bear retreated.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
It was a bear fighting a mountain lion or something?

The Bear retreated.

How is that Relevant? It's ok if you have no idea.

BTW thank you Grand_Moff_Gav. 😄