Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Oh well, DigiMark007, it appears there's nothing but false consciousness and repressed existential angst left for me from here on out..."Creating your own meaning" sounds too much to me like crafting one's own private reality. But maybe that's just me. Also, how is it comforting or enobling to reflect that you've created a meaning for yourself that is as equally unreal as every other person's? Aren't you essentially saying that you've traded in a mass delusion for a private and self-inflicted one? Every code of honor, even a private one, only functions if the person believes that code to correspond with something higher than the self. Ultimately, we have to decide, whether these "higher" things exist or they don't. If they don't, all codes, private or otherwise, are a waste of the universe's indifferent time.
This is wrong on pretty much all counts. It's liberating to create meaning/happiness for oneself, regardless of one's personal ethos. That you can't see that is obvious, as is the fact that you warp my words to suit your own opinions, and so I won't belabor the point.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And always ends in failure. Bit depressing, that.
The survival unit is the gene, not the organism, which copies itself admirably in most species. It's been a wild success so far. It's only depressing if you allow it to be.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Talk about survival!
I was going to report this, then I realized it's just a bear fighting a mountain lion. I suppose that a logically neutral argument, as opposed to an offense to reason, is a step up for ushome, so I can't really fault him for posting it.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
The survival unit is the gene, not the organism, which copies itself admirably in most species. It's been a wild success so far. It's only depressing if you allow it to be.
Then the organism is meaningless. It's only not depressing if you allow yourself a bit (or a lot) of self delusion.
BTW that was a cool video, but a tad disappointing: a mother cougar apparently protecting her kittens from a curious grizzly.
If this had been the reverse--a mother grizzly protecting her cubs from a curious cougar--that cat would've skedaddled from the start, or it would be cubchow with a single swipe.
Originally posted by Mindship
BTW that was a cool video, but a tad disappointing: a mother cougar apparently protecting her kittens from a curious grizzly.If this had been the reverse--a mother grizzly protecting her cubs from a curious cougar--that cat would've skedaddled from the start, or it would be cubchow with a single swipe.
Ya, but cats are smarter then that.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Oh well, DigiMark007, it appears there's nothing but false consciousness and repressed existential angst left for me from here on out..."Creating your own meaning" sounds too much to me like crafting one's own private reality. But maybe that's just me. Also, how is it comforting or enobling to reflect that you've created a meaning for yourself that is as equally unreal as every other person's? Aren't you essentially saying that you've traded in a mass delusion for a private and self-inflicted one? Every code of honor, even a private one, only functions if the person believes that code to correspond with something higher than the self. Ultimately, we have to decide, whether these "higher" things exist or they don't. If they don't, all codes, private or otherwise, are a waste of the universe's indifferent time.
"you" are the ultimate self evident {and perhaps only observable} reality that "you" can observe. truly you have no way of knowing whether the world around you is really there or just a dream or an illusion, yet, the only thing you can be sure of is the existance of YOURSELF. it is perhaps the most importan perspective to judge things by. if you do sumthing, and it feals good to "you" and you have worth in "your " eyes due to it and if it further doesnt directly DENY anything "you" observe in reality{seeing as reality with all its complexities and experiences is most PROBABLY true} then it isnt a delusion at all. it is your reality which is completely reconcileable with the reality of the world. nuthing deluded about it.
however what you are proposing is to give up this REALITY for another divine reality that "you" can neither directly nor INdirectly perceive{in a reality that may or may not be true unliek YOUR OWN EXISTANCE} which further contradicts any reality that you DO perceive around yourself.
am i the only one who thinks that is illogical?
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
No, I do these things because of their intrinsic worth. The fact that I find "worth" in doing them is my argument that the universe is determined by a personal Good that belies the seeming indifference of physical laws.The fact that you can love your wife, or your friend isn't an anomoly or a chemical accident, its a key to the meaning of everything.
see right THERE. "INTRINSIC" worth. intrinsic means contained WITHIN it, within the very act itself. it is in direct opposition to EXTRINSIC worth, which is exactly what the law of god etc is!
the fact that you can love your wife arose because a conciousness with the potential to love exists, and this has been given birth by the accidental coming together of chemicals etc. however, from the point of view of the actual CONCIOSNESS, that is immaterial, as the fact that there is worth in these things exists irrespective of the origin of the conciousness, whether it was divine, or accidental. both lead to the same conclusion and both have little meaning compared to the fact that you DO have the potential to love here and NOW!
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then the organism is meaningless. It's only not depressing if you allow yourself a bit (or a lot) of self delusion.
Coming to terms with the reality of evolution, and our place in it, is simply a fact of science. That it may be harder to reconcile in our minds than one from a theistic perspective doesn't make it any less truthful. What was that Dawkins phrase someone mentioned to me recently...."Just because it's comforting doesn't make it true," or something along those lines. I'd love to be proven wrong, and I'm all for a transcendent creator who gives meaning to evolution beyond survival machines, but I see no reason to believe as such.
From an evolutionary standpoint, the unthinking, unconscious gene is the survival unit. Organisms are the by-product of that process (natural selection) and act as the carriers. Yet no gene "wants" to survive, or has any sentient thoughts at all. It is an unthinking process, driven solely by physical selection. But we are privileged to have a modicum of awareness as a result, and can react to that any way we wish. It's only depressing to those who demand a transempirical "meaning" given to them through a divine force....which, coincidentally, is probably the root cause of much of the creationist nonsense. They're threatened by a universe where their god isn't needed. That's only one place that meaning can come from, among many others that are equally as fulfilling.
And why is it that first Zaius and now you invoke self-delusional when I see something in a positive light? Nothing is either good or bad, depressing or uplifting, until we make it so. Value judgments of that sort are an intrinsic process, not external. So no one needs to be deluded: it is what it is, and isn't inherently depressing. How we view it and react to it is our own business.
I run into similar stigmas, so I guess I can understand, even though it's flawed. I explain determinism, people assume I'm a fatalist. I say I'm an atheist, their words suggest they equate it with something closer to nihilism. A touch frustrating, but it comes from a lack of perspective, not any inherent truth about a scientific worldview.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Coming to terms with the reality of evolution, and our place in it, is simply a fact of science. That it may be harder to reconcile in our minds than one from a theistic perspective doesn't make it any less truthful.
I'm not making a case about truth or accuracy.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
From an evolutionary standpoint, the unthinking, unconscious gene is the survival unit.
And thus the only one that is technically useful, meaningful or needed.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Organisms are the by-product of that process (natural selection) and act as the carriers. Yet no gene "wants" to survive, or has any sentient thoughts at all. It is an unthinking process, driven solely by physical selection.
And that unthinking process that lacks desire is the sole purpose of existence as defined by evolution--even that becomes meaningless from a neutral standpoint in the universe. If you wish to see that a a positive uplifting thing you are quite welcome to but based on the normal concept of what is positive you would be delusional.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
And why is it that first Zaius and now you invoke self-delusional when I see something in a positive light?
Because what you are saying is a form of self delusion. Simply because you've convinced yourself that you something is positive (or negative in fact) does not make it any more true than a belief that you are a god.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nothing is either good or bad, depressing or uplifting, until we make it so. Value judgments of that sort are an intrinsic process, not external.
Those value judgements are based upon nothing but a feeling. To make them and follow them is deluded.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I run into similar stigmas, so I guess I can understand, even though it's flawed. I explain determinism, people assume I'm a fatalist. I say I'm an atheist, their words suggest they equate it with something closer to nihilism. A touch frustrating, but it comes from a lack of perspective, not any inherent truth about a scientific worldview.
Huh?
Sym, I'm not quite sure I'm following you. You seem to be of the mind that I'm just ducky over the facts of evolution. The fact that I find meaning and happiness in life is fairly separate from any of this stuff. I enjoy life because it's exciting and has the potential for love and happiness. Evolution doesn't alter that worldview. But it's not because of evolution that I'm happy...it just doesn't impede that happiness. I consider it pretty neutral in terms of altering my outlook. It's as factual as any other scientifically accepted truth, and nothing more or less.
Otherwise, are you implying that if I'm not depressed in life, I'm delusional? All value judgments about life are intrinsic processes, and all just as arbitrary. If I'm deluding myself, so is everyone else in existence. Seems overly nihilistic to me.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Sym, I'm not quite sure I'm following you. You seem to be of the mind that I'm just ducky over the facts of evolution. The fact that I find meaning and happiness in life is fairly separate from any of this stuff. I enjoy life because it's exciting and has the potential for love and happiness. Evolution doesn't alter that worldview. But it's not because of evolution that I'm happy...it just doesn't impede that happiness.Otherwise, are you implying that if I'm not depressed in life, I'm delusional? All value judgments about life are intrinsic processes, and all just as arbitrary. If I'm deluding myself, so is everyone else in existence. Seems overly nihilistic to me.
I'm saying that any formation of values (positive or negative) must be based upon a delusion. So, yes, everyone would be fooling themselves but I don't see anything negative about that. What interests me is that some people accept their beliefs and others try to rationalize them.