Burning Legion vs Scourge

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wonderful, thats the weakness of the Felhunters you see, they use magic, show me the Obsidion Destroyers version please...ime pretty sure that A: using magic to suck magic from a being is not worried by spell immunity not to mention that Devour magic is not actually hitting th Infernal, its sucking his essence, its no projectile B:

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

heres the obisdion destroyers version, jolly good aint it? no mana cost...its not magical, it feeds the devourer, hes merely opening his mouth and yummy yummy yum, nice hot tasy Infernal for dinner.

A few notifactions of how good they are doesnt mean anything, the undead scourge have been called an undying army, look in the RPG book MOM at the undead abilities, page 156-159 some of their abilities and powers are quite incredible for both attack and survivablity.

They will try and cast dispel, but then because their crippled means they will find not only difficulty when their lying on the ground hardly able to move...no the spel ldoesnt break them otherwise it wouldnt wear off, it would give you the feeling of you being crippled as the spell implies however so you may as well be brokwn physically for the duration.

Can Noz give me notifaction of Doomguard numbers please with actual quotes of how many there are.

Can you show me where it says Pitlords are bred [b]now, sure on their home world but now? along with the amy? until i see evidence or backing for any of these assumptions that i personally think are ridiculous, females following along with the burning legion indeed.

Obviously your not looking at it, look at the notable Necromancers section,

Shadow, Death, nature, Demonology, Frost, Arcane

The guys are hardly limited at all.....

Well mianly because they can rise again....more enedless or infnite than a million strong thats for sure...

WoW balance does not concern me, the abilitis of the destroyer as ive shown you and Nozmordu, and among them is mana drain, consumtion, and spell immunity, if the Destroyers need to have balance in WoW such as removing their spell immuntiy then that is none of my concern, gameplay ftl, that video was sowing you how they explode, not themselves.
[/B]

There is no version for that ability in WoW. The ability exist in warcraft the frozen throne however the spell has no effect on a summoned infernal, go ahead and try yourself i'm sure you have the game. and the effect is none existant, because of the spell immunity coupled with the resistant skin.

No not quiet since it's resistant to that kind of effects.

Quote what you find important about the canonfodder of the Scourge show me what in your opinion will give the Zombies and Ghouls the win against the Felguard it must really be a good reason consideret that the Scourge are outnumbered at the least 1 to 4.

Cripple, "Cripples" the target, reducing movement speed and, increasing time between melee and ranged attacks. It doesn't affect the time it takes to perform a spell. And again they are highly resistant to this effect. It cripples you correct in what way it cripples you however I think you have misunderstood.

Yes he can provide the Scan from the War of the Ancient so we will have to wait for me to get the books unless he post it himself.

Yes on there homeworld, oure assumptions are as good as your believing there are more then one Flesh Titan and that the Obsidian Destroyers are a entire race.

Noteable Necromancers can hardly be called regular necromancers, and again regular Necromancers are restricted to Necromancy, but in that case should we then begin looking at each of the noteable peers of each race find there power and then say that the entire Race can produce that effect, not in my Opinion then there was no idea in saying that it was only the races, then I could just as well have said the entire Legion leaders past and present against the Scourge past and present.

Not those guys but those guys is again not average Necromancers either.

If the Legion outclasses the Scourge 4 to 1 and the Legion most likely down 3 every time the Scourge down one then the Scourge have a problem.

What concerns me is that you have claimed throught the entire conversation is that the Destroyers have spell immunity then you show a Video that clearly shows that isn't the case, you then begin mixing the Destroyer from the Warcraft RTS together with the One from the RPG entirely disregarding that they are two entirely different analysations of the Destroyers.
One has AOE mana drain and the ability to blow up when it gets to much Mana,
the other one doesn't blow up if it's capacity is filled, can devour magic a ability that it's WoW counterpart doesn't have and cannot steal mana from more then one at the time...
These are two entirely different describtions of the Destroyers make up your mind of which one it's going to be that the Scrouge has, because the one they certainly doesn't have is the one you are mixing together.

So you are taking what you like from the individual showings and put them together as you deem fit?

Originally posted by Utrigita
There is no version for that ability in WoW. The ability exist in warcraft the frozen throne however the spell has no effect on a summoned infernal, go ahead and try yourself i'm sure you have the game. and the effect is none existant, because of the spell immunity coupled with the resistant skin.

No not quiet since it's resistant to that kind of effects.

Quote what you find important about the canonfodder of the Scourge show me what in your opinion will give the Zombies and Ghouls the win against the Felguard it must really be a good reason consideret that the Scourge are outnumbered at the least 1 to 4.

Cripple, "Cripples" the target, reducing movement speed and, increasing time between melee and ranged attacks. It doesn't affect the time it takes to perform a spell. And again they are highly resistant to this effect. It cripples you correct in what way it cripples you however I think you have misunderstood.

Yes he can provide the Scan from the War of the Ancient so we will have to wait for me to get the books unless he post it himself.

Yes on there homeworld, oure assumptions are as good as your believing there are more then one Flesh Titan and that the Obsidian Destroyers are a entire race.

Noteable Necromancers can hardly be called regular necromancers, and again regular Necromancers are restricted to Necromancy, but in that case should we then begin looking at each of the noteable peers of each race find there power and then say that the entire Race can produce that effect, not in my Opinion then there was no idea in saying that it was only the races, then I could just as well have said the entire Legion leaders past and present against the Scourge past and present.

Not those guys but those guys is again not average Necromancers either.

If the Legion outclasses the Scourge 4 to 1 and the Legion most likely down 3 every time the Scourge down one then the Scourge have a problem.

What concerns me is that you have claimed throught the entire conversation is that the Destroyers have spell immunity then you show a Video that clearly shows that isn't the case, you then begin mixing the Destroyer from the Warcraft RTS together with the One from the RPG entirely disregarding that they are two entirely different analysations of the Destroyers.
One has AOE mana drain and the ability to blow up when it gets to much Mana,
the other one doesn't blow up if it's capacity is filled, can devour magic a ability that it's WoW counterpart doesn't have and cannot steal mana from more then one at the time...
These are two entirely different describtions of the Destroyers make up your mind of which one it's going to be that the Scrouge has, because the one they certainly doesn't have is the one you are mixing together.

So you are taking what you like from the individual showings and put them together as you deem fit?

Point taken, it doesnt work on infernals afterall. Destroyers will have to Physically pound Infernals into dust along with Abominsations and flesh giants it seems.

The attackers that will be hitting againt Felguard will not all be canon fodder, but heres some important things on page 156-59 are:

suffering-page 159
This undead was born of suffering, its presence decreases morale

Just curious for the record, does it say anywhere if all Burning legion members are fearless?

Flaying touch- page 158

The undead rips a piece of flesh from a anothers body and attaches it to itself, the victim is harmed by the attack and if it survives continues to bleed to death

Create spawn- page 158
creates an undead if a crearure is slain by an undead with this power, although it would usually take an entire night for the being to raise, those who have more power of this form cause spontaneus rising after their kills

bone spurs- page 158 and self destruct on the same page

Bone spurs means the undead will drop cantrop like pieces of bone and flesh from itself creating debris that could harm those who walk, Self destruct could mean the undead who has this ability explodes on death, causing damage to all in the area

Dead zone, Everdark and "just wont die" all on page 157

Dead zone means that all the area round the undead with this power is dieing, the creature regerates wounds thanks to this power

Evardark creates a large black mass cloud around the creature, making it hard to see and hit and ranged attacks always miss when entering the cloud

"just wont die" means this creatue cannot be compeltly destroyed unless each of its body parts are severed from the main torso and burned in seperate fires, even burning in the same fire allows the beast to reform in a matter of days from the ashes, creatures with this power also have regeration

Now some of these powers are damn powerful not to mention some undead can have more than one of these powers.

If your crawling on the ground as i said before crippled, you wont be able to cast a spell with ease, hell especially a big fat pitlord, he will prob crush his own arms or impale himself on his weapon if crippled at the right time.

Notable necromancers are simply those who are named, their still all just necromancers, some pretty normal, their just necromancers just as the whole scourges groups are, this information clearly shows again that they have most schools of magic, theres about 8 necromancers there saying they have diffrent types of powers.

yes they are, wat states otherwise? just because we know their names their not normal necromancers? you have to be nameless to be a average necromancer, show me thats how the membership of the scourge works please....lol, ofc not...their all necromancers, some of them if not a lot of htem use Demonc, nature etc etc, their powers are vast.

No, if a single pitlord was outnumbered by 5 ghouls do the ghouls win? I highly doubt it indeed......the Scourge have far more powerful singluar entities, and this 4 to 1 number is based on what? the entire Glaciar (not the whole scourge army) consists of 250k, the whole scourge army would be more than 250k agreed? ofcourse, also furthermore, this 250k isnt 250k ghouls VS 1 million Felguard, hell for all we know its 400k felguard VS 100k assorted undead, 1000 abomination/flesh giant creatues 1000 frostwyrms and 1000 destroyers etc etc etc, you dont know the exact numbers, although as a whole the legion outnumbers the scourge found in the Glaciar by 4 to 1, if most of those ratio of 4 to 1 is actually 4 felguards for every 1 Frostwyrms then its pointless, most of the felguards will be dead from Destroyer explosions.

Their all the same character and most of the interpretations dont contradict eachother, Infernals are not immune to magic in WoW either, my lock can prob two hit Monroc covern ones with shadow bolts.....this is called gameplay balance for WoW, the main idea around the video is that the Obsidion destroys dont blow up when they AOE. If theres several sources on the destroy but some forget to mention certain powers, they dont just disapear, since their the same destroter in the same game universe, if new lore adds to the abilities of the destroyers then fine, but if it doesnt contradict anything lorewise then fine as well.

So destroyers are: AOE explosion, mana draining, spell immune, flying giant lumps of living stone empowered to survive against even an entire bronze dragon flgiht who had to retreat and gain the other flights to lock Anh quiraj up.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes but they cant do that when Crippled.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes if they had mana, the Destroters are not going to sit and wait their turn, this isnt turn based battle is it, there would be everything happening at once.

Tell me, how on earth do you think, with all those influences, that they will be causing enough disruption to the Eredar for them to find an opening to replenish mana?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well as iit says, for a long time the dragons have done that, the world has been around and so have the dragons far far longer than the legion have been attacking Azeroth. This is the resting place for all the old dragons, since theres so many flights, this would be thousands.

But thats now, LK has all the long dead ones from the history of the dragons in the bone graveyards on his homeground AND the blues he has slaughtered since then such as Sapphiron.

As Krasus attested, despite the large numbers of eggs laid by the females, less than half would survive birth, less than half of those would mature to adulthood, and even less of those would grow to be of age to mate.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Combined with Destroyers taking on Eredar to stop the rain the fact that the Eredar may not have enough mana,

Originally posted by Burning thought
also you keep changing what the characters are doing, for example a handfull of Destroyers and another handful of destroyers both can be doing diffrent things but what about the Eredar? are they calling infernals in which case their doing nothing with their other magics, this means the casters doing that are out of the battle while the Scourge still have all theirs to fully concetrate on destruction and mayhem and crippleing big hitters.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Once again theres no point in using game values....

Originally posted by Burning thought
The same way anything would be consumed, the main facts of lore are this: the infernal is a magically summoned being, the Devour spell devours the maigc of magically summoned beings....this would simply destroy the infernal.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Infernal does not equel an Eredar, an Eredar should be doing more damage than an infernal anyway

Originally posted by Burning thought
All of these tacics are based on the limited duration the Legion can stop the Destroyers and the scourge from moving close either by air or ground, using Flesh giants/titan for support along with all the aobminations and nerbuians

Originally posted by Burning thought
or in the air we could have Nerbubians knocking out the air and the Frostwyrms,large amoutns of Gargoyles and Destroyers themselves (being fat stone mosnters and the air of the legion are not magic immune either) .

You’re assuming that the Nerubian webbing is going to hit its target. You’re also assuming that the doomguard do not possess the capability to deal with gargoyles (who are weaker and smaller than they), the destroyers (who also are smaller than they), and the frostwyrms (who are invidually powerful but can be outmatched by a pack of doomguard).

Originally posted by Burning thought
Just curious for the record, does it say anywhere if all Burning legion members are fearless?

Originally posted by Burning thought
hell for all we know its 400k felguard VS 100k assorted undead

Good luck for the destroyers with doing that.

Are that abilities that the Zombies and the Ghouls has else I cannot see what relevance those quotes has to my request?

and just to answer you question yes they are fearless

Again high spell immunity coupled with the fact that the Cripple doesn't reduce the cast efficiancy of the relevant spell like dispel for instance, it would most likely require a handgesture to make the spell.

13 Necromancers that are noteable, which means they stand out from the regular Necromancers in some way ore another, they are exceptionel when compared with the other Necromancers which also speaks for why they has abilities beyond the ordinary Necromancer, which as mentioned and proved before doesn't have any other spells then Necromancy at his disposal.

But again http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer

Again average Necromancers doesn't have anything besides Necromancy also of those noteable Necromancers 8 out of 13 (discounted The two liches) deals with no other aspect then Shadow and Death which is Necromancy.

Yes the Pitlord would win, though what is the point with this comparison? That strongly depends on how you choose to define singular entities. You misunderstood me, the only known number we have about the Scourge places it's army size at 250.000 you have choosen to use the only known army size of the Legion too a million that I then draw a conclusion from those two numbers (with you claimed the only known size of the legion in particular) isn't wrong I'm using known numbers. Also when I said 4 to 1 it's symbolizes the average outlay between the two armies. that everytime the Scourge have 1 necromancer ore lich the Legion will have four Eredar, very basically.

I has never used the Infernals from WoW because I don't know them and secondly there showings there contradicts both the Lore concerning them and the Warcraft RTS game and I haven't tried mixing the two together. The largest problem I have with this is that you willingly accept one of there abilities and discount another one of there abilities and begin mixing two different showings of a being together. That is my problem. There is contradictions to the lore as shown in the MoM handbooks the Destroyers doesn't have, it's entirely possible that we are dealing with two different destroyers, the one from WoW is encountered in the desert with the Insect race, the other Destroyer serves the Scourge.

So we actually have two different the ones found with the Nerubians and the ones forged by the Qiraji.

AOE Explosion and AOE mana drain in WoW but they lack the Spell immunity, in Warcraft Frozen Throne Spell immunity and Mana Drain but singular targets and no AOE Explosion, in the lore No Spell immunity and no Area of effect Explosions, so three different sources on the Obsidian Destroyer and none agrees on it's abilities. and may I add that

The dragons suffered few casualties but the great bronze wyrm, Grakkarond, was lost during one of the battles

Originally posted by Utrigita
Good luck for the destroyers with doing that.

Are that abilities that the Zombies and the Ghouls has else I cannot see what relevance those quotes has to my request?

and just to answer you question yes they are fearless

Again high spell immunity coupled with the fact that the Cripple doesn't reduce the cast efficiancy of the relevant spell like dispel for instance, it would most likely require a handgesture to make the spell.

13 Necromancers that are noteable, which means they stand out from the regular Necromancers in some way ore another, they are exceptionel when compared with the other Necromancers which also speaks for why they has abilities beyond the ordinary Necromancer, which as mentioned and proved before doesn't have any other spells then Necromancy at his disposal.

But again http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer

Again average Necromancers doesn't have anything besides Necromancy also of those noteable Necromancers 8 out of 13 (discounted The two liches) deals with no other aspect then Shadow and Death which is Necromancy.

Yes the Pitlord would win, though what is the point with this comparison? That strongly depends on how you choose to define singular entities. You misunderstood me, the only known number we have about the Scourge places it's army size at 250.000 you have choosen to use the only known army size of the Legion too a million that I then draw a conclusion from those two numbers (with you claimed the only known size of the legion in particular) isn't wrong I'm using known numbers. Also when I said 4 to 1 it's symbolizes the average outlay between the two armies. that everytime the Scourge have 1 necromancer ore lich the Legion will have four Eredar, very basically.

I has never used the Infernals from WoW because I don't know them and secondly there showings there contradicts both the Lore concerning them and the Warcraft RTS game and I haven't tried mixing the two together. The largest problem I have with this is that you willingly accept one of there abilities and discount another one of there abilities and begin mixing two different showings of a being together. That is my problem. There is contradictions to the lore as shown in the MoM handbooks the Destroyers doesn't have, it's entirely possible that we are dealing with two different destroyers, the one from WoW is encountered in the desert with the Insect race, the other Destroyer serves the Scourge.

So we actually have two different the ones found with the Nerubians and the ones forged by the Qiraji.

AOE Explosion and AOE mana drain in WoW but they lack the Spell immunity, in Warcraft Frozen Throne Spell immunity and Mana Drain but singular targets and no AOE Explosion, in the lore No Spell immunity and no Area of effect Explosions, so three different sources on the Obsidian Destroyer and none agrees on it's abilities. and may I add that

They dont need luck, their bigger and are full lumps of solid stone, they can handle themselves.

its abilities all undead can have I belive, the Ghouls and zombies can definaltey, but the Frsot wyrms and such ime not so sure on..

They stand out why? they are simply named, thats all.....notable means they have names, your not going to have any thoughts on some respawnable necromancer just moving about the plaguelands, the fact of the matter is, theres 3 necromancers who know Nature maigc, another 3 who know frost, another who knows demonlogy, another who knows arcane and at the end of the day the scourge have undead mages anyway and mages know these things, the fact these necromancers are named means nothing, they are necromancers, a lot of them...and theres 7 of their number i belvie that use more than just Shadow and Death. Do you realise Necromancer is just a title also? they were once mages of Dalaren, and other parts of the world....they are mages as well...Necromancer is more of a secondary class.

The point of the comparison is that you keep saying for every 1 legion 3/4 scourge iwll die when the forces of the scourge are mostly superior in most ways...the ratio is massively weak and incaccurate due to these things: A: The scourge have more powerful unit types and many AOE units B: this the entire scourge VS the legion, this is not a basis of just known figuires, unless your making this thread the legion VS the icecrown glacir numbers now...but hell, according to Dark C, he likes using gameplay, 250k level 80's ghouls probably elites as well>>>level 70-71 felguards.

Well the Destroyer information in WoW contradicts the lore of htem being spell immune as well. The destroters are made by the same races, the nerubians as ive already shown are also insectoid worshipers of an Old God that LK took over didnt he, they are basically the same destroyers, they even have the same name.

Although thing is, the lore never says they dont have something, the only thing that says they dont have spell immunity is gameplay aspects whch i can settle down for balance in gameplay, so far ive got abilities backing me up, their the same character, built by same races basically.

Originally posted by DarkC
Which can simply be dispelled.

You said earlier that the destroyers were not great in number. The Eredar and Nathrezim are, and furthermore are scattered along the battlefield. Furthermore, there is the presence of the doomguard causing disruptions among the destroyers. Also the destroyer’s attack, despite being long range, does not have a large area of effect.

Tell me, how on earth do you think, with all those influences, that they will be causing enough disruption to the Eredar for them to find an opening to replenish mana?

No, there wouldn’t be “thousands”, not even close. Dragons very rarely die of old age. They don’t age like mortals do. Tyranastrasz was Alexstrasza’s eldest consort and was rumored to be as old, if not older than, Alexstrasza herself. Granted, during that lengthy time there will be a lot of dead dragons, but not nearly in the number that you described, but not in the thousands.

As Krasus attested, despite the large numbers of eggs laid by the females, less than half would survive birth, less than half of those would mature to adulthood, and even less of those would grow to be of age to mate.

Many won’t, but much more will.

What on Earth makes you think that every single Eredar and Nathrezim is going to be summoning infernals constantly? Furthermore, it’s a difficult yet instantaneous spell, not a slow and arduous one. They can very easily cast other spells at the same time as summoning infernals.

If there is no other reference that you can provide, then I will use game values unless you give me a very good reason why.

I’m going to defer to Utriga’s argument, and it appears that you have as well.

Yes, but not by much. Infernals have been known to destroy entire cities before collapsing.

Spamming movelist again I see.

You’re assuming that the Nerubian webbing is going to hit its target. You’re also assuming that the doomguard do not possess the capability to deal with gargoyles (who are weaker and smaller than they), the destroyers (who also are smaller than they), and the frostwyrms (who are invidually powerful but can be outmatched by a pack of doomguard).

It doesn’t but they are far more disciplined than any other soldier a mortal army could field.

There is always going to be a troop distribution in any army. What a silly assumption indeed.

And then recast, if ofc its still alive before a couple of destroyers smash it to bits.

I said destroyers were more likely equel to the numbers of Pitlords if anything else, nothing states Nethrezim and Eredar are as large in number so far apart from assumption....the AOE is large enough to destroy many in the area considering the Destroyers can also move while during it AND the legion move close together.

because the Eredar will not just be losing mana, they will be attacked by magic immune stone giants that would smash the hell out of them into bits before they can do much, then it will rinse and repeat, a single Destroyer would take on as many Eredar/Natherezim as it wants unless you have proof of a strength feat of them that equels breaking giant stone beings.

How can you be sure? this is along the history of the entire flgihts, so what if one of Alex' m8s is that old that doesnt mean they all are, there have been so many dragons from the beginning of Warcraft history since the history has gone on long long time before the War of the ancients for example. Do you realise that the dragons have been there since before we even know of most of the storyline? do you realise that the Titans didnt come across Azeroth AND then create the dragons, they charged them then, that means that the dragon spieces have been living and diein there for as long as Azeroth has been in excistence.

Can you show me the ease of summoning infernals from lore please? and no how the hell would they summon and cast other spells, you can only cast one spel lat a time and as you said, infernals are a complicated one.

because their gameplay, otherwise Flesh titans have way more HP than anything in the legion, including the leader of the abyssals, felguards have very little HP in comparison to perhaps, level 80 ghouls in Northrend,scourge win via complete value stomp, their level 80, thats what...250 thousand level 80+ vs a million level 70s thats not too bad, infact all the units aside the scourge being outnumbered likely means nothing now, infact the scourge being so much higher level will resist most levle 70 spells from the weak Eredar.....brilliant.

destroying cities and fighting the Scourge are completly diffrent, all they are is dumb pummeling firey beings, their only plus is their magic immune really.

weaker, smaller, faster however and they are in numbers. Saying the webbing wont land is the same as me saying perhaps the Destroyers will dodge or escape Doom guard attack, or that Frostwyrms will do so and simply destory the guards. Not long ag you just said the Destroyers are bigger than Doomguards so make up your mind. Not really, Frostwyrms are fast dragonlike entities, undead so they have the undead longvity and undeath strengths then they have the power of a ranged attack, then they can slow/frost the things....ime pretty sure the Doom guards are hopeless, also isnt the Frsotwyrm attack have a small AOE?

Ime not the one making assumtions here, I was mocking utrigos again, read the posts please, he was saying just because they outnumber the forces, it means the Scourge are definaltey going to lose more, my example proved that incorrect.

Against the Infernals, I highly doubt that, since the Destroyers isn't melee fighters first but rely on there abilities to drain the mana from it's target and use it offensivly against a being with no mana and resistance/immunity they will be in deep water.

So I can bring forth the average skills for the Demons too cool, the most interesting I would like to mention however is the one that gives all demons

immunity to death effects, fire and necromantic effects, and poison

It's the hole noteable section that makes them stand out, if they wasn't noteable they would just be ordinary Necromancers but they noteable from the main bunch, hence they stand out. Please when you qoute atleast do it right, two of those with frost is Liches, not which can hardly be consideret Necromancers any longer, the Demonic is a Lich too Kel'Thuzad to be precise, correct there are three with nature but again there are far more of those that just have Shadow and Death then anything else again 7 out of those 13 have nothing besides Death and Shadow. No Necromancers are as the words itself suggests wielders of Necromancy, there origin can be different, but there primary focus point is Necromancy, not a secondary class else they would still be consideret mages.

The Scourge superior in what aspects if I might ask? the only place I see them have a advantage is the Destroyers, the rest goes hand down to the Legion. AOE units just like the Doomguards, the Eredar, the Infernals on impact, The Natherizim, The Voidterrors and more?
You use the number of demons that entered Azeroth during Archimondes presence in Warcraft Reign of Chaos as a basis for you own conclusions, I cannot see the mistake in taking the only known number from the Scourge and do the same to them as you do towards the Legion. Probably elite... not classified elite, allow me to speficy just how clever the Ghouls are

Because of their limited intelligence, their greatest tactical insight is to hit something until it’s dead

Again the Lore doesn't give them Spell immunity the only source that gives them that is Warcraft RTS so it's basically three sources that disagree on the Destroyers so please don't begin mixing them together into the being you would like the Scourge has. Except that the Nerubians and the Qiraji they can hardly be called the same specie, Because they have the same name it doesn't mean that the Destroyers created by two different races holds the same abilities, this has already been shown and mentioned in abundance, the Nerubians lack the AOE mana drain and explosion, the Qiraji lacks the Spell immunity and devour magic, you don't take two constructions created by two different races and plug them together.

The Lore doesn't mention it, hence they doesn't have it as simple as that, not some fictionel additions that isn't mentioned, in lore they doesn't have Spell immunity ore absorbation. Not really because if you discount the gameplay vulnerability to magic, then I'm just as entitled to discount there explosions and AOE manadrain... And again two different races, it's like trying to compare the high Elves to the Night Elves and say they are the same...

otherwise Flesh titans have way more HP than anything in the legion

Incorrect..

Frostwyrms are fast dragonlike entities, undead so they have the undead longvity and undeath strengths then they have the power of a ranged attack, then they can slow/frost the things

Yet a larger frostwyrm was almost defeated by a weakened blue dragon that used no magic at all other than the dragon breath which was to counter the frostwyrm's breath and succeded.. Being undead doesnt improve a frostwyrm anything, other than protecting them from certain effects such as diseases and poisons.. The frostwyrm certainly didnt have enough strength to win over the weakened blue dragon in a clash..

If anything, Sunwell Triology has shown that a frostwyrm might even be weaker than a living dragon, only with the undead resistance advantages that I mentioned..

Originally posted by Utrigita
Against the Infernals, I highly doubt that, since the Destroyers isn't melee fighters first but rely on there abilities to drain the mana from it's target and use it offensivly against a being with no mana and resistance/immunity they will be in deep water.

So I can bring forth the average skills for the Demons too cool, the most interesting I would like to mention however is the one that gives all demons page 114

It's the hole noteable section that makes them stand out, if they wasn't noteable they would just be ordinary Necromancers but they noteable from the main bunch, hence they stand out. Please when you qoute atleast do it right, two of those with frost is Liches, not which can hardly be consideret Necromancers any longer, the Demonic is a Lich too Kel'Thuzad to be precise, correct there are three with nature but again there are far more of those that just have Shadow and Death then anything else again 7 out of those 13 have nothing besides Death and Shadow. No Necromancers are as the words itself suggests wielders of Necromancy, there origin can be different, but there primary focus point is Necromancy, not a secondary class else they would still be consideret mages.

The Scourge superior in what aspects if I might ask? the only place I see them have a advantage is the Destroyers, the rest goes hand down to the Legion. AOE units just like the Doomguards, the Eredar, the Infernals on impact, The Natherizim, The Voidterrors and more?
You use the number of demons that entered Azeroth during Archimondes presence in Warcraft Reign of Chaos as a basis for you own conclusions, I cannot see the mistake in taking the only known number from the Scourge and do the same to them as you do towards the Legion. Probably elite... not classified elite, allow me to speficy just how clever the Ghouls are MoM 140 and let me see 250K Ghouls against 1 Million Felguards, what a tough question about which side win...

Again the Lore doesn't give them Spell immunity the only source that gives them that is Warcraft RTS so it's basically three sources that disagree on the Destroyers so please don't begin mixing them together into the being you would like the Scourge has. Except that the Nerubians and the Qiraji they can hardly be called the same specie, Because they have the same name it doesn't mean that the Destroyers created by two different races holds the same abilities, this has already been shown and mentioned in abundance, the Nerubians lack the AOE mana drain and explosion, the Qiraji lacks the Spell immunity and devour magic, you don't take two constructions created by two different races and plug them together.

The Lore doesn't mention it, hence they doesn't have it as simple as that, not some fictionel additions that isn't mentioned, in lore they doesn't have Spell immunity ore absorbation. Not really because if you discount the gameplay vulnerability to magic, then I'm just as entitled to discount there explosions and AOE manadrain... And again two different races, it's like trying to compare the high Elves to the Night Elves and say they are the same...

Not really, the Destroyer is far larger, in not only heigh but in bulk, its solid stone all the way through,the infernal is only part, the Destroyer willl smash the Infernal into the ground.

If you can have that trait then I can have the fact all undead are immune to most of those tihngs ecept fire as well....the undead are also nigh unkillalble due to the "will not die" and furthermore, undead banshees can fly and possess which is interesting ,possessing a Pitlord should be fun, thing is undead cannot be destroyed by massive damage either so Pitlords who make massive damage cannot destroy any undead, ime sure Eredar cannot do anything either....so youve got undead who wont die, immune to many elements and in extension are immune to large form damage.

Liches are immune to fire also.

Also what bonus is this to the legion? the undead already have every maigc at their hands as well so resistence to those things will not help them much.

Being notable doesnt mean their not ordinairy necromancers, just because a man has won a flower show, doesnt mean hes not an ordinary man anymore...hes still a man...he is simply notable for winning a flower show...these Necromancers are like most necromancers, but still...Necromancers are also mages...so they have mage spells, since they were mages as a secondary class next to Necromancy, either way, they can be magic users of any spells.

Not at all, half the legion power support, Pitlords, Doomguards...all fine targets for cripple which even a Necromancer can cast, Pitlords cannot do anything to the undead now were using MOM abilities so hes useless, he may as well sit and w8 to be possessed by a Banshee or something. I use the numbers of the entire legion, 1 million. Do the legion even have any flying long ranged units like Scourge have destroers, wyrms and gargoyles who can also double as melee if necessary? The scourge are almost immune to damage in general, the scourge have the Destroters as youve mentioned ,what the hell do the legion have? the only thing they have is Felguards>most ghouls and ghouls can come under the sub title of most smaller undead, it could be a Orc Ghoul or a half giant ghoul if its that type of undead, and Abominations/Flesh giants will smother and crush any of these forces of the felguard.

What else do the scourge have that the burning legion does not:
Ability to replenish their forces through animation on the battlefield, undead Pitlords would do fine.
Long range magic disruption forces, and fliers, many flier types.
Possession capable banshees who are also invisible.
Ability to take air from the sky (Nerbuians)
Ability to incapcitate through cripple most beings

The legion are done for..and this is taking the assumption the Scourge are actually outnumbered, if theres 250k in the glacier alone, theres no fact that states they are outnumbered if the entire worlds scourge army is against the legions 1 million, which due to the scourges advantages, this 1 million will drop fast.

None of the sources disagree, one source simply gives it spell immunity, simple as....nothing sayins the destroyers dont have it. Its the same type of destroyer, an Obsidion destroyer, they even look exactley the same, as WoWwiki says:

Players of World of Warcraft are expected to encounter a number in Ahn'Qiraj. These living statues were also used by the Scourge during the aftermath of the Second Invasion and are still used in Northrend. The fact that the Scourge are using the same constructs as the Qiraji puzzled many people.

However, the Destroyers aren't so much related to the greater Scourge, but rather the Crypt Fiends, a branch of the Scourge's forces. The Crypt Fiends are actually undead Nerubians, a race of spider people that reigned over Northrend before the coming of the Scourge. The Nerubians and Qiraji are both the descendants of the Aqir, an insectoid race that prospered during the days of the mighty Troll empires. It was thought that the Destroyers were likely originally created by the Aqir, and the power to do so carried on to both its descendants.

However, in the Monsters of Ahn'Qiraj page, Blizzard states that it was Emperor Vek'lor who created the destroyers with the aid of C'Thun. It can be simply explained that Vek´lor created destroyers that Qiraji used, not all.

Same constructions

WC3 TFT mentions it, the lore doesnt, simple as that...the lore is not knowledgable on this aspect of the Obsidion destroyer, doesnt mention it, yet the WC3 TFT shows us htey have spell immunity. not two diffrent races, as it says, their from the same insectoid race that ruled during the Troll empires, they are both "obsidian destroyers". You cannot discount actual abilities, their nothing to do with the gameplay, you cannot attribute at all a being with more powers being anything to do with gameplay balance, and furthermore ive got evidence of this balance in effect with your very own infernals which are not magic immune at all....

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Incorrect..

Yet a larger frostwyrm was almost defeated by a weakened blue dragon that used no magic at all other than the dragon breath which was to counter the frostwyrm's breath and succeded.. Being undead doesnt improve a frostwyrm anything, other than protecting them from certain effects such as diseases and poisons.. The frostwyrm certainly didnt have enough strength to win over the weakened blue dragon in a clash..

If anything, Sunwell Triology has shown that a frostwyrm might even be weaker than a living dragon, only with the undead resistance advantages that I mentioned..

Its got more than Supremeus the leader of the Abyssals thats for sure, and they are>>>Infernals.

Can you show me this please, a paragraph or two of this battle, seems unlikely so I would like to see it please, perhaps the dragon was not as underpowered as it may seem, ive spoken with Riten a while ago and she seemed to give the Frsotwyrm more credit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its got more than Supremeus the leader of the Abyssals thats for sure, and they are>>>Infernals.

Can you show me this please, a paragraph or two of this battle, seems unlikely so I would like to see it please, perhaps the dragon was not as underpowered as it may seem, ive spoken with Riten a while ago and she seemed to give the Frsotwyrm more credit.

Where does it say he's the leader of the Abyssals? And there's a pitlord that has roughly three million more health than the Thaddius..

The Sunwell doesnt focus on that fight, so all I can show you are a few clashes if your interested.. I know that you find it unlikely (I personally dont) but it's black on white the clash between a frostwyrm and a blue dragon, and even though the blue dragon is weak it can still hold its own against the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm dies before the fight is finished though, so we dont know who would've won.. What we do know is that they have matching strength and that the blue dragons breath could counter the frostwyrms.. The Sunwell at that time focus on Kalecgos, Ichor and The Baron rather than the two fighting dragons.. What we do know is that the dragon holds its own against the frostwyrm during..

If you want, I can scan what you do see from the fight, but it isnt much..

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Where does it say he's the leader of the Abyssals? And there's a pitlord that has roughly three million more health than the Thaddius..

The Sunwell doesnt focus on that fight, so all I can show you are a few clashes if your interested.. I know that you find it unlikely (I personally dont) but it's black on white the clash between a frostwyrm and a blue dragon, and even though the blue dragon is weak it can still hold its own against the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm dies before the fight is finished though, so we dont know who would've won.. What we do know is that they have matching strength and that the blue dragons breath could counter the frostwyrms.. The Sunwell at that time focus on Kalecgos, Ichor and The Baron rather than the two fighting dragons.. What we do know is that the dragon holds its own against the frostwyrm during..

If you want, I can scan what you do see from the fight, but it isnt much..

What I meant then is htat he is the largest and most powerful Abyssal, thats the main point

yes please, and tell me the state of teh Frostwyrm itself, wyrms are created from all kinds of bones, their wyrms but from the bone yards not all are likely exacltey the same ,the fact remains you said it died before the fight was finished, why did it die? if it was greatly weakened anyway then hell its no wonder.

State? It's an undead dragon.. That's the state of the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm died because the orb that granted the necromancer enough power to resurrect the frostwyrm was destroyed.. It wasnt weakened at all..

As I said, the story didnt focus on the fight.. What I scan here are scattered pieces from a couple of pages.. The point is that a weakened blue dragon physically held its own against the frostwyrm..

Fine lets play a little with MoM and the RPG stats.

Provide me with a source that stats they are capable of doing that please.

Of cause they would be immune to Necromancy, they are created from it no surprise there, If the Banshee suceeds in doing it, which in lore isn't garantied and in the game a level above 5 was to much for the Banshe if I recall correctly, furthermore the Pitlord has yet again Spell Resistance. So now undead cannot die and even be killed by the Eredars interesting, what if you chop it's head of, splits it's torso in half, ore maked it flare with entropic fire? It Dies.

Yes and your point is?

Please show me that they have any magic in there hands, and again the majority of the Scourge relies on Necromancy to perform it's feats, now it faces a army against which Necromancy has no effect.

When a person is noteable it's because that persons stand out from the ordinary, else I see no reason why Kel'Thuzad is mentioned and he most certainly stands out from the Ordinary Necromancer by quiet a margin. Please show me where it stats that the average Necromancer still has his mage spells at his disposal, because the hole reason they are Necromancers are because they have abandoned there former way of life, that includes there spells as a mage.

Yet again the Doomguards have high spell resistance/immunity towards spells so does the pitlords this have been mentioned multiply times why do you continue to ignore it? His Useless? then the Necromancer effect will have no effect on him what so ever. You use the number of the Legion that was present on Azeroth that you fail to accept that in the very same book the amounts of Demons in the Twisted Nether is infinite isn't my concern it's yours. Again the Legion has Fel Dragons, The Firewreck Dragons, The Doomguards, yes almost immune but not entirely immune if they where there was no reason to add hitpoints for them was there? No they can take a incrediable amount of punishment in comparison to a regular human without a doubt does that mean they can play with the Legion, no. The Doomguards and the Firewreck Dragons and the Fel Dragons, Again you are placing the Felguards alone on the ground and as said before that will not be the case.

Let me see.

The Natherizim can do that too, as mentioned before.
Provided they have enough destroyers to focus on each Eredar then they can become a pest then they only need the Dreadlords the Pitlords and the Doomguards, the Voidterrors and the imps and so on.
Which at some times will work at other times it wouldn't, as shown both in the game and the lore. I will inform you that if it fails or success either way the Banshee dies.
Gaining a large number of Doomguards downtoo the field would not be the wisest of moves.
The Cripple that will have no effect and later will begin tiring the Necromancers mainly because of you claiming they will ressurrect the fallen which they will however that requires mana to accomplishe and mana to substain, what do you think the Necromancers are? A endless supply of Mana...

The Legion that has seeded Destruction throughout the Universe will not fall for the Scourge. And I see it the other way around entirely, it will be the Scourge losing it's troops fastest, because they are outclassed in many departments, Magical, Support units, Shock Units, Front units, commanders, the air they will have the upperhand for a short time however they will ultimately lose that field too.

WHich is a lie, then three different sources each gives the destroyer different abilities then the sources disagree on what abilities the Destroyer has. Again if you had care to read that quote it's speculation without a link towards the source from where they gained there information.

Also you forgot one Vital little fact in you bolding out the last part

However, in the Monsters of Ahn'Qiraj page, Blizzard states that it was Emperor Vek'lor who created the destroyers with the aid of C'Thun. It can be simply explained that Vek´lor created destroyers that Qiraji used, not all

And I should now assume that when a Being shows something in the game but the book fails to do so it's simply a forgetting and the being in question still has it? Thats a highly inlogical explanation and it still doesn't change no matter what you claim that in the MoM the Destroyers isn't spell immune, as shown in WoW so actually it's two against one source. The destroyers where created long after the Race split up and formed the two different factions. I can discount abilities when the abilities isn't being used, ore should I claim that a Lion can fly it just haven't showed it yet? Ofcause not we take the Abilities that are being showed and uses them, but we doesn't begin mixing three different showings of a being together because we think that's the most correct one. Sorry but they are both in the Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne and in MoM they isn't in WoW, however they are magical immune in the War of the Ancient trilogy too so I think I have the basis required to say that the one source that points towards the opposite is negated when three stats otherwise then three others is wrong however that isn't as mentioned before the case with the Destroyers actually it's the other way around..

Originally posted by Utrigita
Fine lets play a little with MoM and the RPG stats.

Provide me with a source that stats they are capable of doing that please.

Of cause they would be immune to Necromancy, they are created from it no surprise there, If the Banshee suceeds in doing it, which in lore isn't garantied and in the game a level above 5 was to much for the Banshe if I recall correctly, furthermore the Pitlord has yet again Spell Resistance. So now undead cannot die and even be killed by the Eredars interesting, what if you chop it's head of, splits it's torso in half, ore maked it flare with entropic fire? It Dies.

Yes and your point is?

Please show me that they have any magic in there hands, and again the majority of the Scourge relies on Necromancy to perform it's feats, now it faces a army against which Necromancy has no effect.

When a person is noteable it's because that persons stand out from the ordinary, else I see no reason why Kel'Thuzad is mentioned and he most certainly stands out from the Ordinary Necromancer by quiet a margin. Please show me where it stats that the average Necromancer still has his mage spells at his disposal, because the hole reason they are Necromancers are because they have abandoned there former way of life, that includes there spells as a mage.

Yet again the Doomguards have high spell resistance/immunity towards spells so does the pitlords this have been mentioned multiply times why do you continue to ignore it? His Useless? then the Necromancer effect will have no effect on him what so ever. You use the number of the Legion that was present on Azeroth that you fail to accept that in the very same book the amounts of Demons in the Twisted Nether is infinite isn't my concern it's yours. Again the Legion has Fel Dragons, The Firewreck Dragons, The Doomguards, yes almost immune but not entirely immune if they where there was no reason to add hitpoints for them was there? No they can take a incrediable amount of punishment in comparison to a regular human without a doubt does that mean they can play with the Legion, no. The Doomguards and the Firewreck Dragons and the Fel Dragons, Again you are placing the Felguards alone on the ground and as said before that will not be the case.

Let me see.

The Natherizim can do that too, as mentioned before.
Provided they have enough destroyers to focus on each Eredar then they can become a pest then they only need the Dreadlords the Pitlords and the Doomguards, the Voidterrors and the imps and so on.
Which at some times will work at other times it wouldn't, as shown both in the game and the lore. I will inform you that if it fails or success either way the Banshee dies.
Gaining a large number of Doomguards downtoo the field would not be the wisest of moves.
The Cripple that will have no effect and later will begin tiring the Necromancers mainly because of you claiming they will ressurrect the fallen which they will however that requires mana to accomplishe and mana to substain, what do you think the Necromancers are? A endless supply of Mana...

The Legion that has seeded Destruction throughout the Universe will not fall for the Scourge. And I see it the other way around entirely, it will be the Scourge losing it's troops fastest, because they are outclassed in many departments, Magical, Support units, Shock Units, Front units, commanders, the air they will have the upperhand for a short time however they will ultimately lose that field too.

Provide me with a source that a infernal is capable of damaging a ghoul please

No not at all, I just gave you the page numbers, use it, it says "will not die" they need ot be completly burned in seperate fires, each piece of the being, limbs off the torso and the thing itself...otherwise it comes back again and again....Theres no such thing as levels in a real battle, I dont belive this is a gameplay fight but hell its your thread, level 80 elites ghouls>71 felguards. Good for his spell resistence, doesnt equel immunity.

Just an addition

sure later on, then I can hit two points with one stone. So, nothing the Legion have will have much affect to the already superior forces of the Scourge.

What? abandoned his mage spellls? he threw out his wizards hat and now hes lost all his powers your trying to suggest? lmao........hey maybe he had a yard sale "spells for sale, ime no longer a mage!!, $2.50 for that frost bolt young lady" ....no Utrigos, as it says:

Though they [b]retained their Humanity after making a pact with death, Necromancers became the most terrifying agents of the Scourge. These dark, insidious men were once thought to be aspiring geniuses by the Magocracy of Dalaran. However, their insatiable lust to delve into the secrets of the dark arts drove them to forsake their very souls. Ner'zhul, the Lich King, granted these malevolent sorcerers true power over the dead in exchange for their loyalty and obedience. The shadowy Necromancers have the power to command various types of Undead and even spread the foul undead plague as well.

They have never lost their powers, they have never been taken from them, nothing but their obediance and service, loyalty etc etc, they simply use Necromancer powers mostly, their still mages, just also Necromancers.

ime not ignoring anything, you seem to be under the impression every spell used on them will fail or be weak, the Pitlords and Doomguards would be hit by god knows how many Necromancers, part of the actual scourge in the Glaciar and across the world and the cult of the damned, considering theres going to be what, up to maybe 25-60 Pit lords in the battle at most, theres no chance theyll do much at all, especially with the undead immunity to heavy damage. No because it says Necromancy effects, you now have to prove that "cripple" is a necromancy effect spell....its seems to just be shadow to me, they have not got immunity to shadow spells 🙂

What very same book? ime using the precise numbers from the official site, it says quite clearly Sargerus regardless of any beings view has the burning legion (narrator) at 1 million screaming demons......

Doomguards are the only worthy air weapon they have so far and their large things that could be swarmed by Gargoyles, destroyed utterly by Frost wyrms or simply brought down by Anti air weapons such as webbing, locust swarms would be eating away at the legion as well from all the Crypt lords.

The Nathrezim however are under threat by flying mana absorbing, spell immune monstrosities, the Liches, Necromancers etc etc are free, also you have yet to prove that they are as proficient as Necromancers.

Why not? a bunch of doomguards straight into the scourge, they would be swarmed like throwing a child into a driver ants nest....it would be swallowed, then pop back up as an undead.

No effect? the cripple even if the Pitlord does bother (if it can since it will be drained by Destroyers) dispel, it will be done again and again, once will be enough for a large scourge group just to swarm it before it can do anything.

Necromancers and the scourge have obsidion blight statues that can use the blight to restore mana, also for your inforamtion, Liches can also mana drain, and the various "pact" spells allow the controllers of scourge forces to sacrifce their lackies for more power if htey wish it.

Yes it will, the same reason as before, just because for example perhaps all their other planets they won through are inhabited by pygmies with spears doesnt mean the massively powerful scourge will be stopped, just like how Azeroth has stopped them. Not at all Utrigos, how do they lose anything?

Originally posted by Utrigita
WHich is a lie, then three different sources each gives the destroyer different abilities then the sources disagree on what abilities the Destroyer has. Again if you had care to read that quote it's speculation without a link towards the source from where they gained there information.

Also you forgot one Vital little fact in you bolding out the last part

And I should now assume that when a Being shows something in the game but the book fails to do so it's simply a forgetting and the being in question still has it? Thats a highly inlogical explanation and it still doesn't change no matter what you claim that in the MoM the Destroyers isn't spell immune, as shown in WoW so actually it's two against one source. The destroyers where created long after the Race split up and formed the two different factions. I can discount abilities when the abilities isn't being used, ore should I claim that a Lion can fly it just haven't showed it yet? Ofcause not we take the Abilities that are being showed and uses them, but we doesn't begin mixing three different showings of a being together because we think that's the most correct one. Sorry but they are both in the Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne and in MoM they isn't in WoW, however they are magical immune in the War of the Ancient trilogy too so I think I have the basis required to say that the one source that points towards the opposite is negated when three stats otherwise then three others is wrong however that isn't as mentioned before the case with the Destroyers actually it's the other way around..

Abominations/flesh giants>>Felguard swarms/rushes
Destroyers>basically anything it wants to smash on apart from perhaps Pit lords...but theyll be incapaciated
Support, what you smoking? the Legion have basically no support, the Scourge have so many types of support in the form of Destroyers, magic users on their own forces, they have no end to support.
Commanders? whom, you said no commanders, if you mean Doomguards or something then not a chance, Death knights>>Doom guards in the fact they can call up and animate large groups of undead, some not even on his side, he can use a huge combination of powers as well.

Magic is the only way the legion win through in the end, and you know what, Destoyers are immune to that too, the things are swiss army knives, not to mention the Scourge can work their powers together to be unstoppable force, for example Cripples/swarming with ghouls, tehy can raise the dead, they can possess, they can use their powerful air forces to destroy long range magic threats and Destroters to do almost anything ,their Abominations would knock out basically anything the Legion can bring to bear on them, same with Flesh giants....and if all else fails...Leviathans will just roll on the legion and turn them to puttie.....

It doesnt disagree, if it gives it diffrent abilities then fair enough, if thats how the Destroer has evolved over time, gaining new powers, good for the destroyer, if thats what Blizzard are giving it. And whats yours? fact? lol yours is speculation.

That "little fact" means nothing....so what if Vecklor made the ones in Ahn quiraj, good for Vecklor, we dont know the names of the Nerubians or the Dark God beneath Northrend however who made the Scourges ones.

Infact in the RPG their very spell resistent, if not immune, Also no, its zero against one source, one of your sources is irrelvent, its a gameplay balance mechanic, you know why? because its the PLAYERS who your determining the effect from, if it was another being it would be proof but its not, as soon as its a player your using the interaction for your evidence it fails completly, the other source doesnt disagree as i said before, it just doesnt mention spell immunity, just like how its not mentioned in WoW for Infernals either. weve not seen a lion fly, but in TFT weve seen obsidion destroyers immune..my case is better because its flawless, the obsidion destroyer is immune as an actual element ability in the RTS.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
State? It's an undead dragon.. That's the state of the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm died because the orb that granted the necromancer enough power to resurrect the frostwyrm was destroyed.. It wasnt weakened at all..

no the state of the one that was fighting, what had they both been through before they confronted eachother ,perhaps it was weak because of the Necromancer losing the power or w/e, i need to know its state.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no the state of the one that was fighting, what had they both been through before they confronted eachother ,perhaps it was weak because of the Necromancer losing the power or w/e, i need to know its state.

It was healthy, if that's what your asking.. To answer what they had been trough before the fight:

Frostwyrm: Nothing.. Patroling the region on command of the necromancer..

Blue Dragon: Shot down from the sky, making a rough landing and taking quite the hits.. Then imprisoned in solid ice for a couple of hours.. After being freed by a paladin and while the blue dragon is partially unconcious and exhausted (now in human form) as they try escape, they come across the Frostwyrm who attack them, sending a blast on them that send them flying for an easy few hundred meters.. Then the two get attacked by the undeads, but before killed do the scourge get intercepted by dwarves who try free the paladin and the blue..

This is the point where the Frostwyrm is summoned, and enters the battle by melting numerous dwarves and undeads.. Ichor and Kalecgos both head of towards the necromancer.. The blue dragon transform into dragon from human form (still exhausted, freezing cold and injured), and at this point Kalecgos says "NO! She's far too weak", but she flies into the sky and she manage to hold her own very well against the dragon.. For half the fight she even only used one arm, as she held the paladin in the other..

Bottom line: A frostwyrm was an equal match to an injured, exhausted blue dragon.. I'm not even sure she's considered an adult.. She was referred to as inexperienced at one point, and she isnt very big either..

well then that Frost wyrm is a weakling, who raised that Frostwyrm? do you know where it was raised, if it was that Necromancers then the likelines is that its not a LK Northrend Wyrm OR major PIS/CIS on the Frost wyrms sake, the things are menaces, also how did they melt dwarves? didnt it have frost breath or did it frsot shatter them?

Weaking? Why? Because it didnt reach your expectations? PIS? Because it didnt reach your expectations?

The Frostwyrm was a wyrm of the Lich King, as it was stated.. So who "raised" it? That would be the Lich King.. The necromancer used the "Eye of Ner'Zhul" to claim control over it..

I was wrong though, after a closer look.. It didnt melt anyone.. It froze them.. It just looked to me like a melt (See attachment)