Burning Legion vs Scourge

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Weaking? Why? Because it didnt reach your expectations? PIS? Because it didnt reach your expectations?

The Frostwyrm was a wyrm of the Lich King, as it was stated.. So who "raised" it? That would be the Lich King.. The necromancer used the "Eye of Ner'Zhul" to claim control over it..

I was wrong though, after a closer look.. It didnt melt anyone.. It froze them.. It just looked to me like a melt (See attachment)

Because a Frost wyrm is an enormous great dragon when its from the frozen norths, from the graveyards, there is no way a small dragon from any perspective other than pIS could do it, it would be like an infernal being beaten by a couple of footmen....

Well if he did indeed raise it (a wyrm of the lich king does not hint this, their all wyrms of the lich king to a necromancer) then the power of the orb which is commanded by the Necromancer seems to be weak as its blatently shown.

a Wyrm is the largest class of dragon there is afaik, "great" I also remember being the highest rank, the Frost wyrm is both, the Dragons size along let alone its powers should be enough to take on any lesser dragon, but fortunatley for that one it died before it got stuck in, either was it should have just layed the smack down.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because a Frost wyrm is an enormous great dragon when its from the frozen norths, from the graveyards, there is no way a small dragon from any perspective other than pIS could do it, it would be like an infernal being beaten by a couple of footmen....

Well if he did indeed raise it (a wyrm of the lich king does not hint this, their all wyrms of the lich king to a necromancer) then the power of the orb which is commanded by the Necromancer seems to be weak as its blatently shown.

You also didnt think there was any way the Burning Legion invasion force could be less than a few tens of thousands.. Yet, the books said differently.. There's absolutely not one single indication, not a single sign, that this frostwyrm should be weaker than any other.. Ichor was given the Frostwyrm from the Lich King..

He didnt raise it.. Lich King did.. He claimed control over it by using "Eye of Ner'Zhul", which is an enchanted magical orb that hold, and I quote "highly astonishing powers".. How exactly is the orb weak? It removed Lich King's command over a Frostwyrm.. The orb has nothing to do with the frostwyrm's might at all.. It was used to directly rip it from Lich King's command to the necromancers..

Originally posted by Burning thought
a Wyrm is the largest class of dragon there is afaik, "great" I also remember being the highest rank, the Frost [b]wyrm is both, the Dragons size along let alone its powers should be enough to take on any lesser dragon, but fortunatley for that one it died before it got stuck in, either was it should have just layed the smack down. [/B]

As far as you know, yes.. I'm sorry, but out of what I've seen.. That isnt very far..

Wyrm means adult dragon.. Not "largest dragon".. The dragon was referred to as "wyrm", as in "adult", while the blue dragon it fought had been referred to as "inexperienced", "exhausted" and "too weak" (and "beautiful" to add a little spice to things)

And about the size thing.. Please then explain to me, if size matter as much as you say, how Korialstrasz could physically clash with Neltharion, and, I quote the book "hold his own against the huge black leviathan".. And before you say "pis", I'd like to point out the fact that he earned nothing by doing so.. Nothing was accomplished at all.. It was a futile attempt to reach for the disk..

Originally posted by Nozdormu
You also didnt think there was any way the Burning Legion invasion force could be less than a few tens of thousands.. Yet, the books said differently.. There's absolutely not one single indication, not a single sign, that this frostwyrm should be weaker than any other.. Ichor was given the Frostwyrm from the Lich King..

He didnt raise it.. Lich King did.. He claimed control over it by using "Eye of Ner'Zhul", which is an enchanted magical orb that hold, and I quote "highly astonishing powers".. How exactly is the orb weak? It removed Lich King's command over a Frostwyrm.. The orb has nothing to do with the frostwyrm's might at all.. It was used to directly rip it from Lich King's command to the necromancers..

As far as you know, yes.. I'm sorry, but out of what I've seen.. That isnt very far..

Wyrm means adult dragon.. Not "largest dragon".. The dragon was referred to as "wyrm", as in "adult", while the blue dragon it fought had been referred to as "inexperienced", "exhausted" and "too weak" (and "beautiful" to add a little spice to things)

And about the size thing.. Please then explain to me, if size matter as much as you say, how Korialstrasz could physically clash with Neltharion, and, I quote the book "hold his own against the huge black leviathan".. And before you say "pis", I'd like to point out the fact that he earned nothing by doing so.. Nothing was accomplished at all.. It was a futile attempt to reach for the disk..

The books have not said anything about the entire legion invasion force yet....

Why would Necromancers steal from the Lich King?

Thats a double standard, I could say the same to you. For all your apprent book knowledge you have contrebuted very little to this debate, I mean what? you used the "hundreds of night elves and demons" Neltharian killed to prove the entire WoTA force? pathetic, if you have the knowledge use it.....

Wyrms are above mature/adult

Definition of Mature:

1. Having reached full natural growth or development

2. fully developed physically or mentally; grown-up

Sounds like Adult to me, a Wyrm is larger by far in most cases

It was still PIS, these are impossible odds and in many situations when you can match up the size of two beings ,if a being is vastly larger than the other and especially if their the same species, its far more likely the larger one would be stronger, if not definite, literature is full of PIS most of the time more than even gaming from my own experiance, whether it be a lack of action, or an obvious and random depowerment of a higher force (often the antogonist) losing to a lesser one.

Was the Frsotwyrm even hurt? you realise their so far:
Flying juggernughts of Lich Kings powers of frost
do not feel pain
are undead anyway which means they have the physical strengths of being undead, such as my example earlier, slicing it through the body doing nothing but annoying it.
Larger than the blue dragon you described.

but anyway, the legion are pathetic, just because youve beaten up 10 6 year olds doesnt mean youll win when you finally go up against an 18 year old wrestler, same with the legion, theyve gone up against flimsy worlds only to get completly knocked down by Azeroth, and their armies are pretty basic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The books have not said anything about the entire legion invasion force yet....

Why would Necromancers steal from the Lich King?

Thats a double standard, I could say the same to you. For all your apprent book knowledge you have contrebuted very little to this debate, I mean what? you used the "hundreds of night elves and demons" Neltharian killed to prove the entire WoTA force? pathetic, if you have the knowledge use it.....

Wyrms are above mature/adult

[b]Definition of Mature:

1. Having reached full natural growth or development

2. fully developed physically or mentally; grown-up

Sounds like Adult to me, a Wyrm is larger by far in most cases

It was still PIS, these are impossible odds and in many situations when you can match up the size of two beings ,if a being is vastly larger than the other and especially if their the same species, its far more likely the larger one would be stronger, if not definite, literature is full of PIS most of the time more than even gaming from my own experiance, whether it be a lack of action, or an obvious and random depowerment of a higher force (often the antogonist) losing to a lesser one.

Was the Frsotwyrm even hurt? you realise their so far:
Flying juggernughts of Lich Kings powers of frost
do not feel pain
are undead anyway which means they have the physical strengths of being undead, such as my example earlier, slicing it through the body doing nothing but annoying it.
Larger than the blue dragon you described.

but anyway, the legion are pathetic, just because youve beaten up 10 6 year olds doesnt mean youll win when you finally go up against an 18 year old wrestler, same with the legion, theyve gone up against flimsy worlds only to get completly knocked down by Azeroth, and their armies are pretty basic. [/B]

I'm sick of this.. This'll be my last post in this debate.. I'll explain it in my 3rd parahraph.. So you dont have to bother even replying to it.. There's a chance I wont even read your reply if you do.. I'll consider this one final desperate attemtp to teach you something about warcraft.. I dont expect you to listen though.. You never do.. Which is a shame, since your a good debator.. Proper knowledge would take you a long way.. I suggest you buy the books.. You are already a good debator, all you need is knowledge.

The invasion force was small.. Deal with it.. They expected Mannoroth and Archimonde to deal with most resistance, so they didnt send in the entire legion.. When Neltharion then wiped out the invasion force, they decided not to invade it anymore in the form of armies since he would wipe out any attacking forces immediately, so instead they were going for a more intellectual approach and beat them from the inside (Starting with the recruitment of Illidan, and developing from that).. What I showed you was exactly what it was.. A couple of hundred demons. Could be raised to perhaps around a thousand, plus/minus some hundred if we include the demon base which was never used for offense.

Because the necromancer had broken out of the Lich King's grasp, perhaps? Because he wanted to avenge both living and undead, perhaps? Because he hated what the Lich King had done to him, perhaps? Just perhaps.. But what do I know? I've only read the book..

Contributed very little? Could that perhaps be because I have not involved myself in this debate more than a little? I've brought you scans for all my statements. You just wont accept the scans as proof. You've been proven wrong multiple times, but you never accept it. You always try find ways around it.. Your problem is that your narrow-minded. You wont accept proof even if it's located right in front of you, as long as it doesnt serve your already set mind.. I've brought you proof for all statements I've made (In your eyes maybe I havent, big deal, I dont care), but you have not accepted a single one of them because it doesnt stack with your logic. This is why this will be my final post in this debate, because no matter how much proof I provide, no matter how many scans I bring you, you wouldnt agree on a single thing that would talk in the disadvantage of the Scourge. That's the way you debate. That's how you've always debated and that's the reason I hate debating with you.

Wyrm is another term for dragon. It is the adult stage in a dragon's life cycle.

Still PIS? He was inevitable defeated by Neltharion, but he could hold his own for quite some time.. Just like how Varian Wrynn could defeat a stone giant with only physical means.. Varian Wrynn who was not even the size of the giants fist could match its strength, break out of its grasp and strike back at it.. I dont know what logic your using, if it's LoK logic, Burning Thought logic or whatever, but in warcraft, size doesnt always matter. This is another fact you'll have to accept, as we've seen it over and over.. We've seen Grom beat Mannoroth, Varian beat a stone giant, Broll a magma avatar..

First you ask if it's hurt, then you say it doesnt feel pain? Do you ever read trough what you write? Anyway, to the point..
- The Frostwyrm was damaged in the fight against the blue dragon.. The wing was damaged, as well as pieces of its head and arm (Indications that she was able to "harm" it) I would scan it for you, but the details are so distant in even the comic, so even if I did scan it, you probably wouldnt see it.. Even if you could see it, you wouldnt accept it anyway, since it'd go against your idealistic view of the Frostwyrm to have it damaged by a weakened blue dragon without PIS..
- Physical strength of the undead? No.. Physical endurance? Yes, that is more advanced. But if anything, a resurrected person is physically weaker. Also seen in the Sunwell triology where a random average elf is able to take several skeleton elves by himself and without any effort. Same when a dwarf take on two human skeletons by himself and physically overpower them.. The other example, which is the one you wont accept, is where the weakened blue dragon is able to match the slightly larger frostwyrm's strength.
- Larger than the female blue dragon? Yes, it was. Which makes it rather sad, since the blue dragon was still able to match the frostwyrm, even while weakened.

Completely knocked down by Azeroth? Heh.. One time annhiliated the Demon Soul.. Another time by the essence of the Well of Eternity.. Yeah, that's obviously embaressing losses, both of them.. The Entire scourge would perish in one single blast of the Demon Soul.. As would they with a single blast from the well of Eternity.. They did fail the attack against Azeroth, yes, but only when they had extremely powerful artifacts/powersources.. Since you havent read the book, so you wouldnt know, the troops of the Burning Legion has every single time been superior to the troops on Azeroth. Both the average magicians and melee warriors have been physically and magically superior the defenders of Azeroth. They only succeeses at defending has been because the Azerothian heroes, such as Malfurion, Illidan, Rhonin, Krasus, Korialstrasz, Tyrande, Broxigar and even some dragons had been at constant defense.. The few times that the Legion used their heroes, Azeroth was forced to pull back..

So bottom line of that paragraph: Azeroth with a high quantity of highly powerful heroes was despite their brave attempts to defend Azeroth pushed back constantly even without the involving of Archimonde and Mannoroth.. So it was Azeroth's armies and Azeroth's heroes versus the legion and they were still losing (Until the point where Neltharion used the disk).. So the fact that you say they are pathetic shows just how little you actually know in the matter..

No army that can push back without the involving of Burning Legion leaders in combat those mentioned heroes and the defending armies of Azeroth can be considered pathetic except for in your completely BIASed mind where you are unwilling to accept fact.

And as promised, the scan of the Blue Dragon's size

Originally posted by Nozdormu
This'll be my last post in this debate.. I'll explain it in my 3rd parahraph.. So you dont have to bother even replying to it.. There's a chance I wont even read your reply if you do.. I'll consider this one final desperate attemtp to teach you something about warcraft..

The invasion force was small.. Deal with it.. They expected Mannoroth and Archimonde to deal with most resistance, so they didnt send in the entire legion.. When Neltharion then wiped out the invasion force, they decided not to invade it anymore in the form of armies since he would wipe out any attacking forces immediately, so instead they were going for a more intellectual approach and beat them from the inside (Starting with the recruitment of Illidan, and developing from that).. What I showed you was exactly what it was.. A couple of hundred demons. Could be raised to perhaps around a thousand, plus/minus some hundred if we include the demon base which was never used for offense.

Because the necromancer had broken out of the Lich King's grasp, perhaps? Because he wanted to avenge both living and undead, perhaps? Because he hated what the Lich King had done to him, perhaps? Just perhaps.. But what do I know? I've only read the book..

Contributed very little? Could that perhaps be because I have not involved myself in this debate more than a little? I've brought you scans for all my statements. You just wont accept the scans as proof. You've been proven wrong multiple times, but you never accept it. You always try find ways around it.. Your problem is that your narrow-minded. You wont accept proof even if it's located right in front of you, as long as it doesnt serve your already set mind.. I've brought you proof for all statements I've made (In your eyes maybe I havent, big deal, I dont care), but you have not accepted a single one of them because it doesnt stack with your logic. This is why this will be my final post in this debate, because no matter how much proof I provide, no matter how many scans I bring you, you wouldnt agree on a single thing that would talk in the disadvantage of the Scourge. That's the way you debate. That's how you've always debated and that's the reason I hate debating with you.

Perhaps you will "teach" me what you have understood from the books, I would prob see a diffrent view like anyone else who may read literature. I like to respond to most points, since it may be influential to others even if you do not read it.

Regardless of whether it was small or not, small in what? you prove in this paragraph alone that you dont actually know or you are skepitcal of your own proof by saying a few thousand max....so obviously what you showed was not enough and that was included in with all the night elves dont forget.

Indeed, if the book doesnt say then you wouldnt know.

But its not good proof, you can "provide" proof, your proof could be in the form of a "pwned" video from youtube but it wouldnt be very useful, the same could be said for this information, the informaiton you have provided is not proof of the legions numbers on Azeroth because not only does it say Demons AND night elves int he hundreds, I was interested in the numbers of the enite invasion force in WoTA, Neltharians attack did not destroy "all" of the invasion did it? that was simply in the Demon soul area of the battle otherwise there couldnt have been demons to be fought during Sargs banishment.

Ime sorry but I dont accept unworthy proof, for the reasons ive stated...these are not good pieces of evidence for claims.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
You do realise that mature and adult dragons have been referred to as wyrms in the book? No, ofcourse not.. You havent read the books.. A wyrm is a dragon in its adult state.. There's nothing saying a frostwyrm would be any different in stage of maturity than a normal wyrm, since the frostwyrm is in fact resurrected dragons.. Probably the adult ones, as it is referred to as a wyrm. Frostwyrm. Just like how Korialstrasz is referred to as a red wyrm. Kalecgos is referred to as a blue wyrm. At one point I believe Soridormi was referred to as a broze wyrm. Since a frostwyrm is a resurrected dragon and the adult form of a dragon is a wyrm, it doesnt matter what you say about the Frostwyrm, since your knowledge in the matter is obviously incomplete for claiming a wyrm to be different from an adult, since it's just two words with the same meaning.
When you say a Frostwyrm is larger by far, it's your own speculations and inaccurate at that. Tyrygosa in Sunwell Triology is roughly the size of the Frostwyrm there (Somewhat smaller, but not a significant difference). Then if we compare her to Sapphiron (In WoW, which you've used to bring out the size the Flesh Titans so a very legit estimation), they too are roughly the same size (Again smaller, but not significant size difference.. I'll finish this post with a scan of her size, as a final contribution to this thread (Although according to you I've contributed nothing). You have absolutely no base in claiming that a Frostwyrm is larger than a normal dragon, since outside the games, the only Frostwyrm we've seen (in written lore) the one in Sunwell, which is estimated to Tyrygosa's size. You are ASSUMING that a Frostwyrm is larger, since it sound better in your ears, although all proof existant so far (Both in Naxxramas, WC3 and Sunwell Triology) indicate in absolutely not one single way that a frostwyrm is larger..

Still PIS? He was inevitable defeated by Neltharion, but he could hold his own for quite some time.. Just like how Varian Wrynn could defeat a stone giant with only physical means.. Varian Wrynn who was not even the size of the giants fist could match its strength, break out of its grasp and strike back at it.. I dont know what logic your using, if it's LoK logic, Burning Thought logic or whatever, but in warcraft, size doesnt always matter. This is another fact you'll have to accept, as we've seen it over and over.. We've seen Grom beat Mannoroth, Varian beat a stone giant, Broll a magma avatar..

First you ask if it's hurt, then you say it doesnt feel pain? Do you ever read trough what you write? Anyway, to the point..
- The Frostwyrm was damaged in the fight against the blue dragon.. The wing was damaged, as well as pieces of its head and arm (Indications that she was able to "harm" it) I would scan it for you, but the details are so distant in even the comic, so even if I did scan it, you probably wouldnt see it.. Even if you could see it, you wouldnt accept it anyway, since it'd go against your idealistic view of the Frostwyrm to have it damaged by a weakened blue dragon without PIS..
- Physical strength of the undead? No.. Physical endurance? Yes, that is more advanced. But if anything, a resurrected person is physically weaker. Also seen in the Sunwell triology where a random average elf is able to take several skeleton elves by himself and without any effort. Same when a dwarf take on two human skeletons by himself and physically overpower them.. The other example, which is the one you wont accept, is where the weakened blue dragon is able to match the slightly larger frostwyrm's strength.
- Larger than the female blue dragon? Yes, it was. Which makes it rather sad, since the blue dragon was still able to match the frostwyrm, even while weakened.

Completely knocked down by Azeroth? Heh.. One time annhiliated the Demon Soul.. Another time by the essence of the Well of Eternity.. Yeah, that's obviously embaressing losses, both of them.. The Entire scourge would perish in one single blast of the Demon Soul.. As would they with a single blast from the well of Eternity.. They did fail the attack against Azeroth, yes, but only when they had extremely powerful artifacts/powersources.. Since you havent read the book, so you wouldnt know, the troops of the Burning Legion has every single time been superior to the troops on Azeroth. Both the average magicians and melee warriors have been physically and magically superior the defenders of Azeroth. They only succeeses at defending has been because the Azerothian heroes, such as Malfurion, Illidan, Rhonin, Krasus, Korialstrasz, Tyrande, Broxigar and even some dragons had been at constant defense.. The few times that the Legion used their heroes, Azeroth was forced to pull back..

So bottom line of that paragraph: Azeroth with a high quantity of highly powerful heroes was despite their brave attempts to defend Azeroth pushed back constantly even without the involving of Archimonde and Mannoroth.. So it was Azeroth's armies and Azeroth's heroes versus the legion and they were still losing (Until the point where Neltharion used the disk).. So the fact that you say they are pathetic shows just how little you actually know in the matter..

No army that can push back without the involving of Burning Legion leaders in combat those mentioned heroes and the defending armies of Azeroth can be considered pathetic except for in your completely BIASed mind where you are unwilling to accept fact.

[b]And as promised, the scan of the Blue Dragon's size [/B]

The MoM states Wyrms and Mature diffrent so my knowledge is as complete as the MoM is. Its larger in the view that a Wyrm and Mature is diffrent, if Mature means adult as the dictionary says "full development" then the wyrm is something more, and in the MoM RPG book it states Wyrms as being bigger which is my proof, not speculation.

Logic in itself..general real world logic, size can be a massive factor depending on the beings at hand, if a being of massive size lets say 50 feet and fights a being who is 6 feet of eactley the same build...then the 50 foot being wold be physiall stronger by far....but then again perhaps the aspects are not as large as I imagined, perhaps their simply Wyrms like any other in size at least otherwise Nelthirian was major PIS if he was equelled in strength by a smaller dragon.

By hurt i meant is it damaged then, do you have to be so nit picky, basically was it damaged is hwat i meant. Yes sad that such PIS is incredible, what makes you think them weaker? hell maybe less intelligent if they are not being directly controlled for an important task and their going freestyle with their small minds alone but ive not seen anything state a Ghoul weaker than a man for instance,ghouls slash men to pieces.

Well thanks for your incredible amounts of speculation....what backs up the entire scourge dieing in one blast? ridiculous...Azeroth had more heroes full stop, the Legions heroes are usually heavy hitters like Archimonde but in the end,what does he really do? I dont remember him causing a permanent damage himself, the damage to the tree and such was the decision of the elves so you cant put that damage on Archimondes hands and he was destroyed, the Legion seemed to be smacked down whenever they have tried anything major, Archimonde, Mannaroth, Sargeras even.....Kiljaeden is now outsmarted and failed in stopping the LK gaining a body "sigh", the legion are obviously not used to an actual fight.

They are pathetic due to them losig so much and not worth their salt, the Scourge are far more fearsome than the legion.

There is very little or few fact at all that has been given to balance points, for example hundreds of Night elves and Demons does not= entire Legion invasion force during WoTA....

hm fairly large, how is that a small one? is it stated as being small....but anyway as I said PIS that it could dare stop a Frsot wyrm, but tbh this encounter isnt worth speaking of for any beings strength...it was a quck battle that wasnt even finished.

Originally posted by Burning thought
well then that Frost wyrm is a weakling, who raised that Frostwyrm? do you know where it was raised, if it was that Necromancers then the likelines is that its not a LK Northrend Wyrm OR major PIS/CIS on the Frost wyrms sake, the things are menaces, also how did they melt dwarves? didnt it have frost breath or did it frsot shatter them?

Don't form judgements by singling a member of a unit out simply because you believe them to be "weak". No, they were quite strong in the manga, but still have power insignificant to those of a dragon's. Tyragosa was technically still young at the time and she still was about the Frost Wyrm's size.

According to logic, you factually have no grounds at all to call out plot-induced stupidity, considering that there's never been a dragon vs a Frost Wyrm in WoW. Even more, you can simply compare the statistics of a dragon to those of a frost wyrm in WarCraft III.

http://www.battle.net/war3/neutral/dragons.shtml#dragon
http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/frostwyrm.shtml

As you can see, dragon >> frost wyrm.

Not by that much, besides your using gameplay states to adjust, if you use that, then:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Nefarian_%28tactics%29

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sapphiron_%28tactics%29

Sapphiron has a whopping 900k HP more than the now perhaps most powerful active black dragon in the game. The fact remains however, Sapphiron who is a frost wyrm has more health, has an AOE aura, and he does about 3k with an icebolt that also stuns and freezes those hit..Nefarians most powerful attack seems to do 1k damage, if that...Sapphiron has a massive AOE 70 yard blast of frost that doest 75-125k which is incredible...thats among his many other powers to slow, AOE and drain life, Frost wyrms obviously are not as weak as one would assume, they have many attacks themselves, ive never heard of normal dragons like reds draining health to health themselves for example.

Ah, but how WoW stats are adjusted is enormously different to those of an RTS, wouldn't you agree?

WoW is based on individual unit progression, which is why it's a complete failure in terms of individual strength in relationship to the plot. The RTS is not. A fully grown black dragon easily overpowers a young blue one, but according to WoW Kalecgos would own Nafarian in a curbstomp.

Do you see the faults in your logic here?

Your argument on usage of gameplay is poorly thought out, sorry to say.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And then recast, if ofc its still alive before a couple of destroyers smash it to bits.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I said destroyers were more likely equel to the numbers of Pitlords if anything else

While the Pit Lords are fairly numerous, their numbers are minute in relation to the population of the rest of the races in the Burning Legion, which is why I don’t assume that they will be attacking the Scourge in masses.

Originally posted by Burning thought
nothing states Nethrezim and Eredar are as large in number so far apart from assumption..

As for Nathrezim, they are technically unknown in relative numbers, but quotations in War of the Ancients suggest that they rival the Eredar in numbers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
the AOE is large enough to destroy many in the area considering the Destroyers can also move while during it AND the legion move close together.

Originally posted by Burning thought
because the Eredar will not just be losing mana, they will be attacked by magic immune stone giants that would smash the hell out of them into bits before they can do much then it will rinse and repeat, a single Destroyer would take on as many Eredar/Natherezim as it wants unless you have proof of a strength feat of them that equels breaking giant stone beings.

According to what you said earlier, Eredar are at least as big, if not bigger than, a destroyer. If you’re talking physical damage here Eredar can be downright vicious in melee. Look at Archimonde, who wrestled the mighty Malorne down and broke his neck, and Prince Malchazzar, who simply just hits like crazy.

Furthermore, magic draining or immunity cannot have much, if any effect on indirect casting of physical objects. Illidan was able to cast a spell on a sword that defeated a felbeast, and Rhonin was able to cast a similar spell on a lance that defeated three Infernals.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How can you be sure? this is along the history of the entire flgihts, so what if one of Alex' m8s is that old that doesnt mean they all are there have been so many dragons from the beginning of Warcraft history since the history has gone on long long time before the War of the ancients for example. Do you realise that the dragons have been there since before we even know of most of the storyline? do you realise that the Titans didnt come across Azeroth AND then create the dragons, they charged them then, that means that the dragon spieces have been living and diein there for as long as Azeroth has been in excistence.

Tyranastrasz was named officially as her eldest consort. He did not die of old age. Korialstrasz is still alive and well, her two last consorts perished during their imprisonment to the orcs. Despite their relative age, dragons do not perish often because of it thanks to the blessing of Nozdormu. Considering the dragon’s history there will be a lot of dead wyrms in the Dragonblight, but not nearly enough to rival the numbers of the doomguard.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show me the ease of summoning infernals from lore please? and no how the hell would they summon and cast other spells, you can only cast one spel lat a time and as you said, infernals are a complicated one.

Like I said, it’s a difficult and exhausting spell, but it’s instantaneous. Both Nathrezim and Eredar are able to summon them; Archimonde was able to summon hundreds of Infernals, as well as other demons, at the same time.

It is unclear who was summoning, but the results were massive amounts of infernals dropping from the sky, as well as warlock spells that needed to be fought.

Originally posted by Burning thought
because their gameplay otherwise Flesh titans have way more HP than anything in the legion, including the leader of the abyssals, felguards have very little HP in comparison to perhaps, level 80 ghouls in Northrend,scourge win via complete value stomp, their level 80, thats what...250 thousand level 80+ vs a million level 70s thats not too bad, infact all the units aside the scourge being outnumbered likely means nothing now, infact the scourge being so much higher level will resist most levle 70 spells from the weak Eredar.....brilliant.

Originally posted by Burning thought
destroying cities and fighting the Scourge are completly different

Originally posted by Burning thought
all they are is dumb pummeling firey beings, their only plus is their magic immune really.

Originally posted by Burning thought
weaker

Originally posted by Burning thought
smaller

Originally posted by Burning thought
faster however and they are in numbers. Saying the webbing wont land is the same as me saying perhaps the Destroyers will dodge or escape Doom guard attack

Originally posted by Burning thought
or that Frostwyrms will do so and simply destory the guards.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not long ag you just said the Destroyers are bigger than Doomguards so make up your mind

I changed my mind because of what you said on Moam’s relative size to other destroyers.
If anyone should make up their mind here, it’s you.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, Frostwyrms are fast dragonlike entities, undead so they have the undead longvity and undeath strengths then they have the power of a ranged attack, then they can slow/frost the things....ime pretty sure the Doom guards are hopeless, also isnt the Frsotwyrm attack have a small AOE?

However, during attack in flight the Frost Wyrm would be at a disadvantage; the doomguard would just simply be darting around the attacks. Korialstrasz was barely able to get one or two with his breath attack when he, Malfurion, and Krasus were ambushed by doomguard.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ime not the one making assumtions here, I was mocking utrigos again, read the posts please, he was saying just because they outnumber the forces, it means the Scourge are definaltey going to lose more, my example proved that incorrect.

In this case, it would be the undead necromancy. However, individual Legion warriors are stronger and smarter than undead; plus, they have some sense of autonomy and strategical cooperation as well.

It san interesting topic, despite how old it is, so im gonna leave a post in here. 🙂

Anyway, it is still hard to figure which force would win, since we dont really have a scenario. Doe sthe Legion invade Azeroth? Or does the Scourge invade the Legions frontier world Outland?

Although the Legion is great in numbers as stated in warcraft 3 by Kel'Thuzad.

It is known throughout the lore that it requires alot of magic to bring the Legion to another world. Even when the portal re-opened in Blasted Lands when the Burning Crusade expansion went in to the stores. Soldiers of the Alliance and Horde was able to hold the line and contain the demonic invasion force. And may I point out that invasion force consisted mostly of Infernals and Felguards given I was there with my character.

As for the Scourge, they too are vast in number, but not as great as the Legion. But they reanimate every foe they slay. Being able to reanimate a demon however, is out of my knowledge. Also I have to point out that due to recent lore changes followed with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, it is shown that the Scourge forces has grown in power considerably.

However I still think the Legion would win, given they have had thousand of years to collect magic and power from severals worlds. However, I can not denie the potential the Scourge has. It is stated by a conversation between Tirion and Darion that for every moment that pass, the power of the Lich King grows. And assuming the Scourge reached the peak of it spotential and conquered the entire world of Azeroth. I believe it would have a fair chance against the Legion, because they would gain the sunwell and the water beneath the world tree and the trees own energy.

The Burning Legion magicians are more potent magicials, of larger numbers, and generally even more endurant.

The Burning Legion is superior the Scourge in numbers, and median physical strength.

The Burning Legion leaders vastly outpower the leaders of the Scourge. Kil'Jaeden would accidentally kill Kel'Thuzad in mere crossfire, and Sargeras could fart in the Lich King's general direction and win.

Sargeras alone could take out the entire Scourge's combined effort.

Of course, OP stated that no leaders are involved, which also tip it in the Burning Legion's favor. Larger numbers, stronger per individual, more potent magic, more adaptive, more intelligent.

In any setting, the Burning Legion win.

Main case: In War of the Ancients, the Burning Legion in sheer numbers and basic strength defeated the Gods of Azeroth. Cenarius was eventually brought to his knees by common grunts and flames. The Burning Legion without involvement of leaders felled numerous Gods. Several of these Gods would plow through the Scourge like it was not even there.

This did not even dent their current numbers on Azeroth alone, and their numbers on Azeroth weren't even a fraction of their total amount.

well, idk about that. it seems to me that the scourge cannot be completely wiped out, without a massively powerful being (kil'jeaden+), because of how arthas ended. there always needs to be a lich king, or else the scourge would simply run rampant on azeroth. if they could be wiped out, id think they would just do that....maybe they were thinking it'd just be easier this way, idk.

I really don't think that the Scourge running rampant would be a problem for the Legion as it is for Azeroth. Left without the Lich King the Scourge would quickly be subjugated by Dreadlords, Eredar, or anyone powerful enough, really; or simply be eradicated. It's also very likely that Kil'jaeden would simply take control of the Scourge from the Lich King and end the whole fight very quickly indeed.

Originally posted by menokokoro
well, idk about that. it seems to me that the scourge cannot be completely wiped out, without a massively powerful being (kil'jeaden+), because of how arthas ended. there always needs to be a lich king, or else the scourge would simply run rampant on azeroth. if they could be wiped out, id think they would just do that....maybe they were thinking it'd just be easier this way, idk.

I don't see how the Scourge going wild has any effect on how the Burning Legion would succeed. In fact, the Burning Legion would benefit of it as it would make the Scourge lack the structure that they currently have under the command of the Lich King.
The Lich King provide the Undead with what little intelligence they have, and in his absence, they would be sheer violence and destructions incarnate. Reckless attacks would benefit the Burning Legion who is physically and magically superior.

Felguard vs Ghoul....

Eredar Warlock Vs Lich, I suppose it'd all come down to. And the Eredar Warlocks are far more destructive.

Off-topic but I am curious, has anyone really succeeded in beating the Lich King? all thats happened by the looks of it is that Fordragon is the avatar if you will, instead of Arthas. Unless Fordragon is impossible to defeat in willpower (unlikely, I would bet money that Fordragon gets corrupted and becomes a conveniant reason for the LK to return in a content expansion) then surely they have succeeded in nothing against the LK. Infact, it may be benefical trading a young mans body for that of someone who looks enchanted/powered.

Also what books should I consider to read if I wanted to learn more about Eredar, the legion and what went on outside of the warcraft 3 cinematics. Is it War of the ancients?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Off-topic but I am curious, has anyone really succeeded in beating the Lich King? all thats happened by the looks of it is that Fordragon is the avatar if you will, instead of Arthas. Unless Fordragon is impossible to defeat in willpower (unlikely, I would bet money that Fordragon gets corrupted and becomes a conveniant reason for the LK to return in a content expansion) then surely they have succeeded in nothing against the LK. Infact, it may be benefical trading a young mans body for that of someone who looks enchanted/powered.

Also what books should I consider to read if I wanted to learn more about Eredar, the legion and what went on outside of the warcraft 3 cinematics. Is it War of the ancients?

Yep, the Lich King was all good and beaten. The only reason Bolvar decided to become the "avatar" is to keep control of the rampaging Scourge that was left without a leader.

War of the Ancients Trilogy is a pretty good read. 'Manual of Monsters' and 'Shadows & Light' are also good sources of info.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Off-topic but I am curious, has anyone really succeeded in beating the Lich King? all thats happened by the looks of it is that Fordragon is the avatar if you will, instead of Arthas. Unless Fordragon is impossible to defeat in willpower (unlikely, I would bet money that Fordragon gets corrupted and becomes a conveniant reason for the LK to return in a content expansion) then surely they have succeeded in nothing against the LK. Infact, it may be benefical trading a young mans body for that of someone who looks enchanted/powered.

Also what books should I consider to read if I wanted to learn more about Eredar, the legion and what went on outside of the warcraft 3 cinematics. Is it War of the ancients?

The Lich King is probably the most actively defeated final WoW boss to date. As for the Bolvar point, Bolvar has greater willpower and discipline than Ner'Zhul was displayed to have in Rise of the Horde.

If you want to learn more about the Eredar, and the Legion, I would actually suggest Rise of the Horde over War of the Ancients, but both help you understand it better.