Wolverine (finally! The Revamped Respect Thread!)

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They were stated to be Elder Gods... and that is what the Elder Gods are... 😕

It happened in X-Infernus, but most of Belesco's appearances circel around him trying to free these gods. They are who granted him immortality

Hold on, Belasco? Are these the same Elder Gods from Otherplace/Limbo?

You'd have to provide evidence that said beings have any affiliation with Demuirge and so on. The term Elder God is just that, a term. I remember the Destroyer fighting off the Great Beasts in Hel. That doesn't mean said monsters have any relation to the ones from Alpha Flight. Heck, I recall Odin being called an Elder God. I think it was during Lein's run. There's also the time the term Elder God was used to define the older entities such as Crom, Ymir etc. But that was in the Savage Sword of Conan. Not sure if that's cannon to Marvel continuity.

Edit: When you're referring to the Elder Gods, are you referring to the ones from Claremont's run? The N'Garai? IIRC, they were only the spawn of Chthon.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hold on, Belasco? Are these the same Elder Gods from Otherplace/Limbo?

You'd have to provide evidence that said beings have any affiliation with Demuirge and so on. The term Elder God is just that, a term. I remember the Destroyer fighting off the Great Beasts in Hel. That doesn't mean said monsters have any relation to the ones from Alpha Flight. Heck, I recall Odin being called an Elder God once I believe. I think it was during Lein's run. There's also the time the term Elder Gods was used to define the older entities such as Crom, Ymir etc. But that was in the Savage Sword of Conan. Also recently in New Mutants,

Edit: When you're referring to the Elder Gods, are you referring to the ones from Claremont's run? The N'Garai? IIRC, weren't they simply the spawn of Chthon.

Nah, they banished Belasco to Limbo, but they weren't there.

Your comparison isn't very apt, for one those I'm pretty sure those were the same Great Beasts. I don't know about Odin, but Crom was called an Elder God before. However it was just an alternative for "Sky Father," the Grim God isn't an Elder God, the Savage Sword and RE Howard stuff fallows the Lovecraft definition of Elder Gods more than 616 continuity does.

No, Chthon created the N'Garai after he fled from the purge, they aren't Elder Gods, just demons.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nah, they banished Belasco to Limbo, but they weren't there.

Your comparison isn't very apt, for one those I'm pretty sure those were the same Great Beasts. I don't know about Odin, but Crom was called an Elder God before. However it was just an alternative for "Sky Father," the Grim God isn't an Elder God, the Savage Sword and RE Howard stuff fallows the Lovecraft definition of Elder Gods more than 616 continuity does.

No, Chthon created the N'Garai after he fled from the purge, they aren't Elder Gods, just demons.

So are they the same "Elder Gods" from the New Mutants or not?

Unfortunately for you, that isn't true. Based on what are they the same Great Beasts? I remember having this discussion with Mungi -PM's- and the only connection we found was the name Great Beasts. I'll look for the reference a bit later. Like I said, Elder God does not directly mean a connection to the Elder Gods from Demuirge.

So the Gods you're referring to are not the N'Garai? The N'Garai have also been referred to as the Elder Gods more than once in the past. During Claremont's run I believe. IIRC, they were confirmed to be the Elder God's Belasco served. In the Black Sun mini perhaps.

What issue did these Gods appear in so I can check it for myself.

I enjoyed re-browsing this thread.

I'd also like to say for the record (though I've been quoted on this elsewhere too) that Wolverine would take 6/10 from Spidey.

😉

Originally posted by Digi
I enjoyed re-browsing this thread.

I'd also like to say for the record (though I've been quoted on this elsewhere too) that Wolverine would take 6/10 from Spidey.

😉

jawdrop

WHO ARE YOU?! And what in the love of **** did you do with DIGI?! 😐

😉
😛

Anyways, I don't know much about this god talk, and I don't much care, but the notion that Wolverine can't slice and dice on Thor is utterly ridiculous...

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be suggested and/or proven.

For the record we have one divergent 616 timeline where Wolverine cut a suped up Thor's arm. A lot of people want to pretend he didn't? Well ignorance doesn't do a whole lot to explain the cause for Thor's cry of pain, OR the fact that his limb was hanging helplessly by his side thereafter... and before you naysaying jackholes want to ALSO pretend that he wasn't hurt from the attack, then why don't you also go about explaining to me why Thor couldn't defend himself with said arm when Strange dropped that necklace around his head.
Coincidence eh? 🙄

Yeah, except for the fact that Kitty Pride in X-Men Forever ALSO stabbed through Thor's arm with her Wolverine claw. "But jinzin those aren't 616 examples".

And what IS?! The one fight Thor and Wolverine have had, showed Wolverine scoring blood with every hit of his claws, THROUGH Thor's armor, and sure Thor brought up his durability, but Logan never caught him with a straight shot, and Thor ALSO established that his durability wasn't going to do much to help him... after being cut three times. 😐

Of course if we wanted to do the usual KMC duties and ignore ALL 3 of those examples in favor of nonsense we COULD always go the way of pointing out all the people with similar durability that Wolverine has cut, stabbed, or cut through....

But yeah, I'm supposed to rip all his credit away because....? 😐

Originally posted by jinzin
Anyways, I don't know much about this god talk, and I don't much care, but the notion that Wolverine can't slice and dice on Thor is utterly ridiculous...

😬

Not really. Whether you want to believe or not, if Thor was harmed by Wolverine's claws, then a lot of shit his done doesn’t even remotely make sense. True, energy/blunt resistance don’t correlate with piercing, but Thor has higher end feats in those categories as well. Really high end. Heck, simply taking a punch from the Destroyer armor with its spiked knuckles wouldn’t make sense.

Can Logan cut Thor? Sure. But if it’s anything more than minimal superficial cuts, shit gets murky. A higher end Thor isn’t being cut by Logan in my opinion

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not sure how many times it needs to be suggested and/or proven.

baka

Originally posted by jinzin
For the record we have one divergent 616 timeline where Wolverine cut a suped up Thor's arm. A lot of people want to pretend he didn't? Well ignorance doesn't do a whole lot to explain the cause for Thor's cry of pain, OR the fact that his limb was hanging helplessly by his side thereafter... and before you naysaying jackholes want to ALSO pretend that he wasn't hurt from the attack, then why don't you also go about explaining to me why Thor couldn't defend himself with said arm when Strange dropped that necklace around his head.
Coincidence eh? 🙄

First of all, I’d like to point out that Thor doesn’t seem any more durable than his classic self unless his amping.

His limb was hanging helplessly from the side? What the heck are you talking about.

No one’s arguing that Logan didn’t hurt Thor. I however did point out the idiotic leap in logic that he cut Thor to the point his arm was useless and such.

Did you call me a “naysaying jackhole”? Heh.

Don’t complain when I point out you’re idiotic leaps in logic or your mutant power to say so much, and yet mean or proof so little. It’s as an unnatural as your love for hairy midgets you cum cuzling son of a.....You get the idea.

Now that we’ve got insults out of the way I hope we can stick purely to debating. 🙂 If that’s within your capability of course.

If it makes you feel better or you believe it distracts people from your most likely poor points, you're free to throw in some insults in your next post. I don't care at all.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah, except for the fact that Kitty Pride in X-Men Forever ALSO stabbed through Thor's arm with her Wolverine claw. "But jinzin those aren't 616 examples".

baka But they aren’t.

Originally posted by jinzin
And what IS?! The one fight Thor and Wolverine have had, showed Wolverine scoring blood with every hit of his claws, THROUGH Thor's armor,

Like I said, I’m fine with Wolverine cutting Thor as long as the damage is at best minimal which it was except for one particular place.

Don’t try and emphasize the armor. It means little. Trying to pretend otherwise is just opening yourself to ridicule.

Originally posted by jinzin and sure Thor brought up his durability, but Logan never caught him with a straight shot, and Thor ALSO established that his durability wasn't going to do much to help him... after being cut three times. 😐 [/B]

Logan never caught him with a straight shot? Now you’re either lying or misremembering. It seems that the only thing you Wolverine fans call straight shots are shots that have Wolverine slicing and dicing his enemy.

You’re getting pretty good at this. And by this, phrasing shit in a way to make Logan seem more impressive than he actually came off as.

Let’s not forget that this is arguably the lowest end Thor I’ve seen in a long time. I’ve seen Logan fans claim the scene was not relevant as it was not written by a good writer, the writer didn’t get the character, or all the number of b*tching, stretching, etc. done when Wolverine and/or characters related to him are in question.

Don’t even get me started on Wayverine. I’ve seen you –or Skrank- argue that since it wasn’t written by a competent writer, it’s not relevant. Then there’s the topic of whether Logan can get shot in the eye or not.

What did ODG call it again? Oh yea, Wolverithmetics.

Originally posted by jinzin
Of course if we wanted to do the usual KMC duties and ignore ALL 3 of those examples in favor of nonsense we COULD always go the way of pointing out all the people with similar durability that Wolverine has cut, stabbed, or cut through....

Lol, I can’t believe you’re actually counting the non cannon instance. Frankly, it’s hilarious.

Like who? All I can think off of the top of my head is Nefaria, and he clearly wasn't at the top of his game. Very few people can match Thor durability wise on Earth. Hulk was one of them back in the day, but currently his vulnerable physically but has a strong healing factor so he doesn't prove anything.

Originally posted by jinzin
But yeah, I'm supposed to rip all his credit away because....? 😐

No one’s asking you to rip his credit away. Just give Thor his.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That's a pretty huge leap.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/KillsWolverine.jpg

Wolverine caught Thor by surprise and slashed Thor's forearm. Thor was hurt but otherwise fine.

😬 Hulk was shown face down in a pool of blood.

By fine you mean his arms is significantly damage then yes I guess.

Not in Wolverine vs Thor he wasent.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that arm was dam useless. I can't see any wounds on it, he could be holding it but its not entirely clear. Looks like hes simply hurt.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that arm was dam useless. I can't see any wounds on it, he could be holding it but its not entirely clear. Looks like hes simply hurt.

Also I said the arm was signicantly damage which it was.

If you look closely in the last panel you can not only see that Thor's manacle is barely roughed up but also what appears to be cut marks and some flayed skin on Thor's arm.

So I have to agree that, yes, Wolverine did hurt Thor, but not to the point his arm was useless. The blow looks pretty superficial compared to Thor's ability to recuperate.

Wolverine slashed through Thor's arm, next time he is seen said arm is gone. Obviously the arm was missing as a result of Wolverine's attack, saying that "Well maybe Hulk ripped it off off panel!" is just absurd fanboy deflection. We all know what happened, Wolverine cut through his arm and there was still enough flesh sinew for it to remain attached for a panel. It's non canon so isn't all that relevant, but lets not kid our selves here because we all know what happened.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So are they the same "Elder Gods" from the New Mutants or not?

Unfortunately for you, that isn't true. Based on what are they the same Great Beasts? I remember having this discussion with Mungi -PM's- and the only connection we found was the name Great Beasts. I'll look for the reference a bit later. Like I said, Elder God does not directly mean a connection to the Elder Gods from Demuirge.

So the Gods you're referring to are not the N'Garai? The N'Garai have also been referred to as the Elder Gods more than once in the past. During Claremont's run I believe. IIRC, they were confirmed to be the Elder God's Belasco served. In the Black Sun mini perhaps.

What issue did these Gods appear in so I can check it for myself.

I haven't been reading New Mutants.

I'm almost positive they were The Great Beasts, not just some random monster called Great Beasts.

They were cited as being Elder Gods, and that's what Elder Gods are. Outside of Crom who's ties to canon are shaking at best, there is only one definition of "Elder God" prevalent in Marvel. If a character is stated to be an Asguardian God, I'm not going to assume they are a second group of never before heard of Asguardians for no reason... and I'm not going to do that here.

No they weren't the Kierrok and the N'Garai.

Wolverine: The Best There Is #3

Wolverine makes quick work out Suicide (Ghost Rider villain), Vic Slaughter (Morbius villain), Scavenger (Manthing villain) and Yi Yang before succumbing to the effects of the Corruptor's nerotoxin. This what happens when Wolverine doesn't have to hold back because his opponet lacks a healing factor.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine slashed through Thor's arm, next time he is seen said arm is gone. Obviously the arm was missing as a result of Wolverine's attack, saying that "Well maybe Hulk ripped it off off panel!" is just absurd fanboy deflection. We all know what happened, Wolverine cut through his arm and there was still enough flesh sinew for it to remain attached for a panel. It's non canon so isn't all that relevant, but lets not kid our selves here because we all know what happened.

The panel clearly shows that his arm is entirely intact. It also shows that his wrist band, which took the same blow, was only minorly damaged. So if a piece of clothing less durable than Thor himself wasn't ruined by Wolverine's blow than its ludicrous to think that Thor lost an arm because of the blow.

Edit: In fact, Thor isn't even holding where Wolverine slashed in the last panel. Wolverine cut Thor across the wrist, not up on his bicep.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
😬

Not really. Whether you want to believe or not, if Thor was harmed by Wolverine's claws, then a lot of shit his done doesn’t even remotely make sense. True, energy/blunt resistance don’t correlate with piercing, but Thor has higher end feats in those categories as well. Really high end. Heck, simply taking a punch from the Destroyer armor with its spiked knuckles wouldn’t make sense.

Can Logan cut Thor? Sure. But if it’s anything more than minimal superficial cuts, shit gets murky. A higher end Thor isn’t being cut by Logan in my opinion

And that's fine to have an opinion but the FACT is that Wolverine cuts through people with crazy durability ALL the time, with a number of them being at nor near Thor's level.
He's cut through the most durable versions of Hulk who has resisted Adamantium machines biting down on him.
And Hercules has displayed fear on two different occasions from them as well as being put down in a third.
Thor's been stabbed... a lot. Even in his reboot issue 1 he was taking superficial cuts from demon claws iirc.
Wolverine's claws are a better suited weapon to get the job done on cutting super durable beings. It's what the guy does, and if what he cut or could cut wasn't an absurdly impressive laundry list with names like Thanos on it, then it wouldn't be worth discussing in threads...
As it stands all your doing is engaging in the "I don't like it, it didn't happen" mentality.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
baka

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
First of all, I’d like to point out that Thor doesn’t seem any more durable than his classic self unless his amping.

His limb was hanging helplessly from the side? What the heck are you talking about.

No one’s arguing that Logan didn’t hurt Thor. I however did point out the idiotic leap in logic that he cut Thor to the point his arm was useless and such.

Did you call me a “naysaying jackhole”? Heh.

Don’t complain when I point out you’re idiotic leaps in logic or your mutant power to say so much, and yet mean or proof so little. It’s as an unnatural as your love for hairy midgets you cum cuzling son of a.....You get the idea.

Now that we’ve got insults out of the way I hope we can stick purely to debating. 🙂 If that’s within your capability of course.

If it makes you feel better or you believe it distracts people from your most likely poor points, you're free to throw in some insults in your next post. I don't care at all.

From all appearances, he DID cut Thor's arm to a point of uselessness.
Again, you want to believe that it's just a coincidence that Thor screamed out in pain when Wolverine appeared to cut through him, then couldn't be bothered to fend off Strange WITH THAT same arm while he opted to punch Wolverine with the other one, THEN had that arm limp at his side while grabbing it presumably in pain, THEN only used the good arm when he struggled to tear the necklace off, THEN lost that same arm in combat with Hulk and Thing?

And you think MY ARGUMENTS are weak or lacking proof? Or ME using "idiotic" leaps in logic? 🙄
What a joke.

I'd opt to insult you back, but the sheer stupidity of your assertion that Thor's arm wasn't injured to a high degree IN SPITE of what the panels would indicate does that job plenty enough for me.

BTW: what the **** is "cum cuzling"? 😐

In anycase I'd hardly think my addressing you as a "naysaying jackhole" (which was more of a sweeping generalization to the number of people who share ideals that you also have and not really specifically geared towards you) that big of a deal.. but I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings. You know I like you.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
baka But they aren’t.

Which is fine except for the fact that a 616 example DOES exist supporting them in turn. They are just supporting evidence that back up the 616 proof we already have.
It's something that COULD/SHOULD/and likely does indicate Marvel's take on the nature of this discussion.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, I’m fine with Wolverine cutting Thor as long as the damage is at best minimal which it was except for one particular place.

Don’t try and emphasize the armor. It means little. Trying to pretend otherwise is just opening yourself to ridicule.

Don't get me wrong. No one thinks Wolverine's going to de-limb Thor with ease, or slice through his bones like butter. But the fact of the matter is that he can likely do more than just superficial damage based on the things he's done seperate from this particular case, the things he's already did to Thor, as well as what Thor suggested/admitted to.

The armor IS an emphasis on the point we're discussing. Wolverine can cut through it to Thor's body to the point that Thor doubted his durability would hold out in a prolonged fight with Wolverine. It's not worth neglecting when someone such as yourself is trying to suggest Wolverine can't do more than superficial damage on Thor's skin alone.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Logan never caught him with a straight shot? Now you’re either lying or misremembering. It seems that the only thing you Wolverine fans call straight shots are shots that have Wolverine slicing and dicing his enemy.

You’re getting pretty good at this. And by this, phrasing shit in a way to make Logan seem more impressive than he actually came off as.

Let’s not forget that this is arguably the lowest end Thor I’ve seen in a long time. I’ve seen Logan fans claim the scene was not relevant as it was not written by a good writer, the writer didn’t get the character, or all the number of b*tching, stretching, etc. done when Wolverine and/or characters related to him are in question.

Don’t even get me started on Wayverine. I’ve seen you –or Skrank- argue that since it wasn’t written by a competent writer, it’s not relevant. Then there’s the topic of whether Logan can get shot in the eye or not.

What did ODG call it again? Oh yea, Wolverithmetics.

No... by "straight shot", I mean a straight shot. Not a slice, not a dice, a straight jab that's meant to punch through one's opponent.

The bottem line is that Wolverine never landed a straight shot with his claws out because if he did we wouldn't be having this discussion.
A straight shot would have ended in one of two ways, either Wolverine stabbing through Thor, or his claws being jammed back into his arms.... unfortunately for your case, we already saw Wolverine cut Thor with slices and dices, and doing it through his armor, so the likelyhood that he couldn't flat out puncture Thor is a low one.

Yes, let's not forget this is a "low showing" for Thor based on your opinion...
Uh.... why is that again? Because he was outmaneuvered by Wolverine in close quarters combat? That's not a low showing, that's a likelyhood.
Because he was cut by Wolverine? That's not a low showing, that's a likelyhood.

Every Wolverine fan can tell you in a "real fight" Thor would obliterate Wolverine with the use of his powers, but in a melee, which is what most of that fight was, there was already a number of well thought out arguments for Wolverine with convincing proof long before that fight got put on panel... There's no need to act like Thor's out of Wolverine's league in melee given Wolverine's track record against Thor/Thor-like/Abc system opponents, and vice versa.

Now I'm not really sure what your issue is with my taking Thor's words at face value, but it was put down in black and white that Thor didn't think his durability was going to help him for long. I mean you can take up all the issue you want with that, but trying to pass it off like I'M the one misconstruing things here for some agenda is laughable at best.

Finally it wasn't my argument to throw out Ways writing on Wolverine, but there are more than enough reasons to hoever that's an entirely different discussion than the one we have right now as is the phantom bone theory, stop with the red herrings.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lol, I can’t believe you’re actually counting the non cannon instance. Frankly, it’s hilarious.

Like who? All I can think off of the top of my head is Nefaria, and he clearly wasn't at the top of his game. Very few people can match Thor durability wise on Earth. Hulk was one of them back in the day, but currently his vulnerable physically but has a strong healing factor so he doesn't prove anything.

You're the one ignoring evidence, likelyhood, and specifics of this case not me.

Lol the Nefaria instance, the only reason I've seen for people to establish that he was depowered comes from the fact that Wolverine put him down. If what we engage in is Wolverithmetics, then that is CERTAINLY some degree of anti-Wolverithmetics. It was a writing point to establish that he was at the Thor level hence his statement, the whole point of bringing him into the story was to establish that the New Avengers could deal with similar/re-occuring/etc foes as effeciently or moreso than older teams, that much was flat out stated in an interview.

In any case, Wolverine's cut through the most durable versions of Hulk, he's hurt professor Hulk, Hercules is afraid of his claws, stabbed Thanos, Wolverine's claws have gotten the Marvel push, you don't have to like it, but to ignore it is something else altogether.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No one’s asking you to rip his credit away. Just give Thor his.

People getting cut by Wolverine is not a low showing for them, it's what he does, it's the number one offensive thing he brings to the table in every fight, and it's what makes him dangerous even to people who should be outside the league of any streeter.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
The panel clearly shows that his arm is entirely intact. It also shows that his wrist band, which took the same blow, was only minorly damaged. So if a piece of clothing less durable than Thor himself wasn't ruined by Wolverine's blow than its ludicrous to think that Thor lost an arm because of the blow.

Edit: In fact, Thor isn't even holding where Wolverine slashed in the last panel. Wolverine cut Thor across the wrist, not up on his bicep.

Artist error. It's true the initial panel has the claws slashing the wrist, the fallow up panel has two clearly visible slash marks on the bicep, the third being under Thor's palm.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
The panel clearly shows that his arm is entirely intact. It also shows that his wrist band, which took the same blow, was only minorly damaged. So if a piece of clothing less durable than Thor himself wasn't ruined by Wolverine's blow than its ludicrous to think that Thor lost an arm because of the blow.

Edit: In fact, Thor isn't even holding where Wolverine slashed in the last panel. Wolverine cut Thor across the wrist, not up on his bicep.

Pretty sure the plot points are the important things to take into account here, they hold much more precedence than "art fails".

What's your take on it then? Thor got a muscle spasm at the same time on his bicep, and that Wolverine can't cut through cloth? 😕

BTW: Sorry for my stupidity but can we continue this discussion in the "Wolverine" general comics discussion thread?

I should have done it there, but wasn't really thinking. Thanks.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Artist error. It's true the initial panel has the claws slashing the wrist, the fallow up panel has two clearly visible slash marks on the bicep, the third being under Thor's palm.