Well, as TPM Obi>ROTJ Luke:
Luke gets kicked in the face and somehow manages to grab onto the ledge. He watches Qui-Gon get stabbed (and he will) but, lacking the emotional attachment to Jinn that Kenobi had, doesn't fly into a rage to push Maul back enough to defeat him. Now, if Maul threatened that he'd kill Luke and turn Leia... that's a different story.
Actually, no it's not, Maul would still win.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Well, as TPM Obi>ROTJ Luke:Luke gets kicked in the face and somehow manages to grab onto the ledge. He watches Qui-Gon get stabbed (and he will) but, lacking the emotional attachment to Jinn that Kenobi had, doesn't fly into a rage to push Maul back enough to defeat him. Now, if Maul threatened that he'd kill Luke and turn Leia... that's a different story.
Actually, no it's not, Maul would still win.
how is tpm kenobi better than luke to you?
Originally posted by Man of Christ
only because they didnt have the coreography and cgi to make luke look good.........
No, MoC, no.
I'll make an argument as to why Maul would WTFpwn Luke- In terms of force abilities, while Maul never displayed anything truly impressive, neither did Luke by that point- unless they're gonna force push each other to death, a force fight won't be the outcome.
And then again, you have the saber fight; Maul is an extremely talented saber combatant- being a master of Juyo makes it necessary to train in all of the forms and become a high level master of multiple forms. And then you have Luke, who merely had a mediciore Djem So imitated from his duels with Darth Vader. The difference between them is so ridiculous it can't even be described. In terms of physical abilities, Maul outstrips Luke even more; see, Maul was trained to become a complete physical beast- he was extremely agile, fast, not to mention his extensive training in Teras Kasi, which forces the practician to undergo EXTREME physical conditioning (Maul's physical conditioning was beyond anything we've seen). Physically? Maul > Luke. By a MILE. As you can see, Maul's technical skill, strength, speed, stamina, and experience are all far beyond what little neophyte Luke has. If they ever fought, Luke was gonna get pwned hard.
Now, I expect you're gonna pull out the "Luke beat Vader!" card- while it's certainly believable that Vader was on par with Maul in terms of saber abilities (I'd put him at slightly lower than Maul), Luke later acknowledges that Vader could have easily killed him at any point during the engagement, but was dragged down due to his emotional conflict and his will not to kill Luke.
The difference between TPM Kenobi and Luke, however, is far smaller- you have the fact that Luke was considerably less experienced and technically skilled than Obi-Wan, but he did have that immense raw power to make up for it. However, while Luke only had a mediciore, imitated form at his disposal (at best), Obi-Wan had near mastery of Ataru and was considered a highly talented apprentice. While I doubt he would beat Luke as badly as Maul, he's still superior.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
It seems most of your argument is based off what you see in the movies, if they had cgi back then im sure your opinion would differif i went by what i saw in the movies, then pre suit vader would pwn anh vader but is that the case? no
Sure it would. Did you notice that nothing in my argument was based off of the way their fights actually were? I suppose you didn't. Read again.
Oh, and saberwise, RotS Anakin would certainly defeat ANH Vader due to his far greater speed, mobility, and agility- while ANH Vader logically surpasses RotS Anakin in terms of technical skill, Anakin simply has more raw power and mobility, in addition to being capable of becoming stronger the longer the fight goes on; RotS Anakin is at the prime of his saber skills. Not his force powers, certainly, but saber skills.
Before excusing my argument as "Based on CGI!!111!!1", READ.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sure it would. Did you notice that nothing in my argument was based off of the way their fights actually were? I suppose you didn't. Read again.Oh, and saberwise, RotS Anakin would certainly defeat ANH Vader due to his far greater speed, mobility, and agility- while ANH Vader logically surpasses RotS Anakin in terms of technical skill, Anakin simply has more raw power and mobility, in addition to being capable of becoming stronger the longer the fight goes on; RotS Anakin is at the prime of his saber skills. Not his force powers, certainly, but saber skills.
Before excusing my argument as "Based on CGI!!111!!1", [B]READ
. [/B]
i read your post but still you saw tpm no doubt and seeing the movie invariably influences one's decision
luke is not omniscient and could have been mistaken when he said vader could have beaten him.
i say this because in Rotj yoda said luke was ready to face vader.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
i read your post but still you saw tpm no doubt and seeing the movie invariably influences one's decision
luke is not omniscient and could have been mistaken when he said vader could have beaten him.i say this because in Rotj yoda said luke was ready to face vader.
Does it? I suppose it does, possibly, but all the evidence I posted is based off of evidence which doesn't involve the movie. The fact of the matter is, Luke- circa RotJ- while gifted, isn't on the level of the Jedi we see on the PT.
Luke could've been mistaken- however, you contradict yourself in your post. If he could have been mistaken, then why couldn't YODA be wrong? Yoda, as far as I know, had never fought Anakin in his incarnation as Darth Vader- how could be quite so familiar with the extent of Vader's power? Meanwhile, Luke actually duelled Vader. It's possible that he was simply comparing the swordsmanship he witnessed from Vader when he actually tried to hurt him in Cloud City (after Luke grazed Vader's shoulder), and the swordsmanship he witnessed in their second duel. It's very much possible to see hesitation in one's movements, in one's skills. I seriously doubt Luke was incorrect about that.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Does it? I suppose it does, possibly, but all the evidence I posted is based off of evidence which doesn't involve the movie. The fact of the matter is, Luke- circa RotJ- while gifted, isn't on the level of the Jedi we see on the PT.Luke could've been mistaken- however, you contradict yourself in your post. If he could have been mistaken, then why couldn't YODA be wrong? Yoda, as far as I know, had never fought Anakin in his incarnation as Darth Vader- how could be quite so familiar with the extent of Vader's power? Meanwhile, Luke actually duelled Vader. It's possible that he was simply comparing the swordsmanship he witnessed from Vader when he actually tried to hurt him in Cloud City (after Luke grazed Vader's shoulder), and the swordsmanship he witnessed in their second duel. It's very much possible to see hesitation in one's movements, in one's skills. I seriously doubt Luke was incorrect about that.
with your statement rise 2 questions then
1) did vader's swordsmanship dimishish so greatly that he wouldnt be able to keep up with any of the pt guys?
2) do you think esb vader would have been able to beat rotj luke
supporting evidence as well please, i am curious to hear
Originally posted by Man of Christ
with your statement rise 2 questions then1) did vader's swordsmanship dimishish so greatly that he wouldnt be able to keep up with any of the pt guys?
2) do you think esb vader would have been able to beat rotj luke
supporting evidence as well please, i am curious to hear
1) Vader's swordsmanship diminished in the sense that he lacks the mobility, power, and stamina his previous incarnation did; he's certainly more technically skilled and physically stronger. No, I think he would've been quite capable of defeating Qui-Gon Jinn and up to the AotC incarnations of Obi-Wan and Anakin; but he won't be able to defeat the PT Top Dogs, at least in lightsaber combat. He's an excellent duelist, but his style relies on hammering the opponent into submission with physical strength; he focuses on offense, and I doubt his defense is particularly good. A faster, more agile swordsman like Mace will kick his ass in lightsaber combat because of that. He simply sucks when he fights people faster than he is; he just gets overwhelmed.
2) There's no indication Vader improved from the point of ESB to RotJ. If he's going all-out with the will to kill Luke, Luke's gonna get his head lopped off.
It's true that IF they had CGI and computer imaging back in the 80's, then Luke and Vader would have been comparatively faster and more powerful.
HOWEVER, as they are not, we can't simply say "Well just because they didn't look like it, doesn't mean they weren't." It'd be a rabid contradiction within G-canon if the OT characters were as fast and strong as the PT, but did not look like it whatsoever.
To counter that, the notion that Vader is in a suit and "toyed" with Luke and Ben, is used to explain his lethargy. For Luke, it's his lack of training and experience. For Obi-Wan and Yoda, it's their 19-22 years as very old men going without practice.
ROTJ Luke, with his several weeks of training is not, IS NOT, going to last against a Sith Lord with a LIFETIME of training in the Dark Side, full use of his very mobile limbs, and fantastic stamina. Not to mention that double-bladed saber is gonna throw Luke's underdeveloped saber-skills right off.
Originally posted by Tangible God
It's true that IF they had CGI and computer imaging back in the 80's, then Luke and Vader would have been comparatively faster and more powerful.HOWEVER, as they are not, we can't simply say "Well just because they didn't look like it, doesn't mean they weren't." It'd be a rabid contradiction within G-canon if the OT characters were as fast and strong as the PT, but did not look like it whatsoever.
did Mace Windu look faster than OT Vader and ROTJ Luke to you??? cause he looked about as slow as Samuel Jackson to me..
so by your argumment if we are going to judge characters by how they looked, then Windu is not a prequel top dog, is actually quite a slow and crap jedi, and would get his ass kicked by OT Vader or ROTJ Luke in a saber duel.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He's an excellent duelist, but his style relies on hammering the opponent into submission with physical strength; he focuses on offense, and I doubt his defense is particularly good.
iv read he incorporated Soresu into his style after his defeat by Obi-Wan. and I think in Dark Lord Rising it states he incorporated all 7 styles into his style. so its difficult to say how advanced his style became by OT. hed already mastered Djem So, and knew Ataru quite well by ROTS, only at the age of 22. so itd be silly to assume he only stuck to this for the rest of his life.
he seemed to just use Djem So against Luke however. but he was definetely holding back against Luke in ESB and just testing his skills, and possibly in ROTJ as well.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
then why couldn't YODA be wrong?
well it wasnt only Yoda who sed "no more trianing do you require.. already know you that which you need."
Vader also said "your skills are now complete. Indeed you are Powerful as the Emporer has forseen?"
so are Yoda and Vader both wrong??!! Unlikely.
I say since Luke was ready to be knighted, just as TPM Obi-Wan was, their skills were probably on the same level, but with Luke A LOT more powerful.
4 years is enough for someone who starts training at the age of 19, so will probably learn a lot quicker, and also considering he is a Skywalker who are the most natural at learning to use the Force.
if anyone has read the infinity version of Star Wars, where Luke completed his training with Yoda, then ull know Yoda says to him, "never has any of my pupils completed their training so quickly."
Originally posted by DARTH POWERActually yeah, they did. There were several more twirling leaps and Old Man backflips in the Mace vs. Sidious fight than any OT duel. It's been established, the OT duelists we see are just not as fast as the PT duelists.
did Mace Windu look faster than OT Vader and ROTJ Luke to you??? cause he looked about as slow as Samuel Jackson to me..so by your argumment if we are going to judge characters by how they looked, then Windu is not a prequel top dog, is actually quite a slow and crap jedi, and would get his ass kicked by OT Vader or ROTJ Luke in a saber duel.
The real life explanation is lack of movie-making technology, the in-universe explanation is Vader in a suit, Luke with little training, and Yoda and Kenobi becoming old and out of shape.