revisit the tpm duel but replace tpm kenobi with rotj luke

This doesnt make sense...it has to be cgi and nothing else

my justification: they say ben had been out of training which is why he looked so bad against vader. this doesnt add up because siddious and yoda hadnt dueled in a long time and they looked great against eachother.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
This doesnt make sense...it has to be cgi and nothing else

my justification: they say ben had been out of training which is why he looked so bad against vader. this doesnt add up because siddious and yoda hadnt dueled in a long time and they looked great against eachother.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
This doesnt make sense...it has to be cgi and nothing else

my justification: they say ben had been out of training which is why he looked so bad against vader. this doesnt add up because siddious and yoda hadnt dueled in a long time and they looked great against eachother.

Okay. I know you say Lucas' words don't matter, but guess what? THEY DO, whether you like it or not.

First of all, 'CGI' has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the fights; CGI is purely imagery. And for the record; the fights you see in the PT aren't accelerated. It's basically people training intensively for months in order to achieve perfection in a duel; in the OT, fights were done with less care, less visual effects (making the lightsabers look like colored stricks), and significantly worse choreography.

Now then, on to GL: he explained why the OT fighters did not appear as impressive; his 'excuse' wasn't CGI. It was that they were out of shape, untrained, etc, etc, etc... excuses? Possibly. But George Lucas said it. The PT Fights were faster because the fighters were better. GL said it. GL is CANON. Therefore, the things you see on screen do represent the character's power, not just "CGI".

Tangible God pretty much covered up the Yoda and Sidious fight. The reason that they appear so much faster and more impressive than Luke and Vader is because they are STRONGER.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Actually yeah, they did. There were several more twirling leaps and Old Man backflips in the Mace vs. Sidious fight than any OT duel. It's been established, the OT duelists we see are just not as fast as the PT duelists.

The real life explanation is lack of movie-making technology, the in-universe explanation is Vader in a suit, Luke with little training, and Yoda and Kenobi becoming old and out of shape.

no Sidious did the twirls. Mace Windu didnt do any twilrs or leaps in their fight. Mace didnt look any faster or better at fighting than Darth Vader. and yet we know hes a PT top dog. even in AOTC he doesnt do anything "visually" amazing or beyond anything OT Luke or Vader did.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Okay. I know you say Lucas' words don't matter, but guess what? [B]THEY DO, whether you like it or not.

First of all, 'CGI' has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the fights; CGI is purely imagery. And for the record; the fights you see in the PT aren't accelerated. It's basically people training intensively for months in order to achieve perfection in a duel; in the OT, fights were done with less care, less visual effects (making the lightsabers look like colored stricks), and significantly worse choreography.

Now then, on to GL: he explained why the OT fighters did not appear as impressive; his 'excuse' wasn't CGI. It was that they were out of shape, untrained, etc, etc, etc... excuses? Possibly. But George Lucas said it. The PT Fights were faster because the fighters were better. GL said it. GL is CANON. Therefore, the things you see on screen do represent the character's power, not just "CGI".

Tangible God pretty much covered up the Yoda and Sidious fight. The reason that they appear so much faster and more impressive than Luke and Vader is because they are STRONGER. [/B]

Lucas said in the prquels "the Jedis" were at the height of their power. and then we get to Star Wars and Obi-Wans an old man, and Lukes a novice. he also mentions something about Vader being more machine than man, but lets not forget its Lucas who put OT Vader at 80% of the Emporer. and he never specified how good Luke had got by ROTJ.

If you're arguing (Generally, that is) that the OT and PT Jedis are the same speed, you're quite silly. You did watch Anakin VS Kenobi in ROTS, right? Or Kenobi/Anakin VS Dooku, right? Or Sidious VS Yoda, right? That's just one prequel movie, not counting the intense speed Kenobi had to throw down during his duel against Grievous. The fastest dueling I saw in the OT was when Luke hammered Vader down to his knees in ROTJ, and even that wasn't all that quick.

If you're just referring to Mace, I suggest you pay attention to the Clone Wars animated series or watch AOTC again. ROTS too, maybe?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no Sidious did the twirls. Mace Windu didnt do any twilrs or leaps in their fight. Mace didnt look any faster or better at fighting than Darth Vader. and yet we know hes a PT top dog. even in AOTC he doesnt do anything "visually" amazing or beyond anything OT Luke or Vader did.

Besides, I was speaking of the PT as a whole in lightsaber fights, don't corner the issue into ONE conveniently less flashy duel.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I never said Mace did the twirls. That fight was still more... CGI impressive than any OT fight, but that doesn't mean I think it was OMGWTF, especially compared to the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

Besides, I was speaking of the PT as a whole in lightsaber fights, don't corner the issue into ONE conveniently less flashy duel.

Mace's fighting was easily the worst thing in the prequels- in terms of lightsaber duel. The Sidious vs. Mace duel was rather pimpin', but Sidious' (or shall I say, Ian McDiarmid) performance as well as the CGI applied to him made him considerably more impressive than Mace. S'pecially Yoda vs. Sidious.

Hell, Mace vs. Sidious, despite being one of the slower PT fights are still considerably above Vader vs. Luke. Not to mention Sidious vs. Yoda and Anakin vs. Obi.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Okay. I know you say Lucas' words don't matter, but guess what? [B]THEY DO, whether you like it or not.

First of all, 'CGI' has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the fights; CGI is purely imagery. And for the record; the fights you see in the PT aren't accelerated. It's basically people training intensively for months in order to achieve perfection in a duel; in the OT, fights were done with less care, less visual effects (making the lightsabers look like colored stricks), and significantly worse choreography.

Now then, on to GL: he explained why the OT fighters did not appear as impressive; his 'excuse' wasn't CGI. It was that they were out of shape, untrained, etc, etc, etc... excuses? Possibly. But George Lucas said it. The PT Fights were faster because the fighters were better. GL said it. GL is CANON. Therefore, the things you see on screen do represent the character's power, not just "CGI".

Tangible God pretty much covered up the Yoda and Sidious fight. The reason that they appear so much faster and more impressive than Luke and Vader is because they are STRONGER. [/B]

Im curious, then what are great lightsaber feats are there in the BOOKS (prior to rotj) that makes Luke a better replacement for tpm obiwan? You can't blame technology/cgi/choreography if there aren't had feats in the novels that puts rotj luke above tpm obiwan as I haven't read that many books about pre tpm obiwan and books that takes place around the same timeframe as the OT.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
IF these are gl's words then he contradicts himself because dooku was around ben's age but we saw dooku could move.
the youngling who got killed in front of bail organa was significantly weaker than rotj luke but he had great coreography and he moved faster.
so its all about visual afftects. im sure they did the best they could in the 70's .
i dont think gl was like "hey crew lets make these duels suck so we can make the PT ones look better by comparison"

How stubborn can you be? Dude. GL SAID it. I don't care if he's contradicting himself, I don't care if he's making up excuses, he said it. It's ESTABLISHED canon, like it or not.

The 'guy' who was killed in front of Bail wasn't exceptionally fast for all I noticed; yes, his jump thingy was certainly done with visual effects, but other than that? There's a reason the guys in PT look better. GL explicitly said that they were faster. What's so hard to get?

Dooku had extensively trained himself and wasn't nearly as out of practice as Obi-Wan. There's the difference to you.

GL, in fact, was more the reverse of what you said: "Let's make the PT duels better to show that the better than in the OT." He SAID that he was trying to show how much faster than guys in the PT were. My god, nothing you can say will change the fact that Luke's isn't nearly as fast as any of the PT top dogs.

I'm fairly certain the man who created the Star Wars Universe might know a little more than you might, yes?

The absolute fact of the matter is that the relative speeds of Force users depicted in the various novelizations, comics, and video games do not contradict the speeds depicted in the movies themselves, according to Leland Chee. The reason? Cinematography lacks a credible way to display fight sequences in which combatants move faster than the eye can see -- we wouldn't be able to see them and the alternative of constantly filming fight sequences in slow motion or Matrix-inspired bullet time is patently preposterous -- so you can bet your ass that inferior technology came into play.

So, Luke Skywalker is certainly not capable of overcoming Obi-Wan Kenobi in a duel because of lack of formal training but certainly not because of an apparent lack of speed or physical capability. His attunement in the Force kicks the dogshit out of Kenobi's, and even in Shadows of the Empire he demonstrates vastly superior speed compared to Prince Xizor's insanely expensive and capable bodyguard droid, Guri.

Originally posted by Gideon
The absolute fact of the matter is that the relative speeds of Force users depicted in the various novelizations, comics, and video games do not contradict the speeds depicted in the movies themselves, according to Leland Chee. The reason? Cinematography lacks a credible way to display fight sequences in which combatants move faster than the eye can see -- we wouldn't be able to see them and the alternative of constantly filming fight sequences in slow motion or Matrix-inspired bullet time is patently preposterous -- so you can bet your ass that inferior technology came into play.

So, Luke Skywalker is certainly not capable of overcoming Obi-Wan Kenobi in a duel because of lack of formal training but certainly not because of an apparent lack of speed or physical capability. His attunement in the Force kicks the dogshit out of Kenobi's, and even in Shadows of the Empire he demonstrates vastly superior speed compared to Prince Xizor's insanely expensive and capable bodyguard droid, Guri.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How stubborn can you be? Dude. GL SAID it. I don't care if he's contradicting himself, I don't care if he's making up excuses, he said it. It's ESTABLISHED canon, like it or not.

The 'guy' who was killed in front of Bail wasn't exceptionally fast for all I noticed; yes, his jump thingy was certainly done with visual effects, but other than that? There's a reason the guys in PT look better. GL explicitly said that they were faster. What's so hard to get?

Dooku had extensively trained himself and wasn't nearly as out of practice as Obi-Wan. There's the difference to you.

GL, in fact, was more the reverse of what you said: "Let's make the PT duels better to show that the better than in the OT." He SAID that he was trying to show how much faster than guys in the PT were. My god, nothing you can say will change the fact that Luke's isn't nearly as fast as any of the PT top dogs.

a few responses

1) in lucas contradicting himself he negates his own obvious evidence in the films. lucas blaming the weak OT duels on jedi being out of practice is like O.J. saying he didnt kill his wife or dick cheney saying he didnt shoot that guy he was hunting with on purpose. lol

2) vader being mostly machine is a lame excuse because general grevous was mostly machine but he was incredibly mobile. HECK EVEN SUPER BATTLE DROIDS WHO ARE ALL MACHINE IN THE GEONOSIAN ARENA RAN MUCH FASTER THAN VADER EVER DID. so vader being machine should have actually made him faster than slower. which is another unanswered contradiction in the films.

3)Vader and Ben looked like they didnt even know how to hold thier lightsabers in anh, and that makes no since if siddious continually trained vader.

Vader's emotional attachment to luke had nothing to do with how slowly he dueled because when luke nicked his arm in esb he lost his temper and moved a little bit faster but nothing compared to rots. due strictly to coreography.

its due strictly to coreography because vader has actually been using his lightsaber to hunt down jedi in the books that bridge the trilogies but looked aweful in his duel.

heck graphics are so major that GL will probably even have to make an excuse for why vader's blade looked orange for a few seconds in ANH, what will he come up with next? a colour changing focusing crystal? lol

my point is, it is cgi and no in universe explanation can justify the speed diffrence adequately

The mechanized augmentations and supplements that came with Darth Vader's suit is considerably different from General Grievous.

Originally posted by Gideon
The mechanized augmentations and supplements that came with Darth Vader's suit is considerably different from General Grievous.

would you say he was similar to the super battle droid in terms of limbs?

also that leads me to another question, if they had the technology why didnt they give him better augmentations?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
would you say he was similar to the super battle droid in terms of limbs?

also that leads me to another question, if they had the technology why didnt they give him better augmentations?

There was two decades between the films, shit is gonna change or get left out, but that does not mean you can come up with your own interpretation and call it canon.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Dude, what do you want, Lucas to knock on your door admitting his contradiction had offering you a formal apology, perhaps a job as Official Retconner in Charge of Fixing Plot Holes?

There was two decades between the films, shit is gonna change or get left out, but that does not mean you can come up with your own interpretation and call it canon.

same to you

Originally posted by Man of Christ
same to you