revisit the tpm duel but replace tpm kenobi with rotj luke

Originally posted by Man of Christ
a few responses

1) in lucas contradicting himself he negates his own obvious evidence in the films. lucas blaming the weak OT duels on jedi being out of practice is like O.J. saying he didnt kill his wife or dick cheney saying he didnt shoot that guy he was hunting with on purpose. lol

2) vader being mostly machine is a lame excuse because general grevous was mostly machine but he was incredibly mobile. HECK EVEN SUPER BATTLE DROIDS WHO ARE ALL MACHINE IN THE GEONOSIAN ARENA RAN MUCH FASTER THAN VADER EVER DID. so vader being machine should have actually made him faster than slower. which is another unanswered contradiction in the films.

3)Vader and Ben looked like they didnt even know how to hold thier lightsabers in anh, and that makes no since if siddious continually trained vader.

Vader's emotional attachment to luke had nothing to do with how slowly he dueled because when luke nicked his arm in esb he lost his temper and moved a little bit faster but nothing compared to rots. due strictly to coreography.

its due strictly to coreography because vader has actually been using his lightsaber to hunt down jedi in the books that bridge the trilogies but looked aweful in his duel.

heck graphics are so major that GL will probably even have to make an excuse for why vader's blade looked orange for a few seconds in ANH, what will he come up with next? a colour changing focusing crystal? lol

my point is, it is cgi and no in universe explanation can justify the speed diffrence adequately

...

Vader = A man in a suit. Grievous = a bio-droid. It's different stuff, dude. In RoDV, Vader muses about how the suit was poorly constructed and was more of a hindrance than a help- it gave him immense strength, but severely restricted his mobility and speed. There IS an in-universe explanation for it. Vader is a slow fighter- the EU comments on this as well.

Ben was an old man who was extremely out of practice and lacked the ability to use the force to overcome his physical limitations, like Sidious and Yoda who used it to give themselves speed- Dooku, meanwhile, was fit and was constantly practicting, unlike Obi-Wan.

Now then, do you understand? ROTJ. Luke. Is. Slower. Than. The. Jedi. In. The. PT. GL. Said. So. Deal. With. It

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
...

Vader = A man in a suit. Grievous = a bio-droid. It's different stuff, dude. In RoDV, Vader muses about how the suit was poorly constructed and was more of a hindrance than a help- it gave him immense strength, but severely restricted his mobility and speed. There IS an in-universe explanation for it. Vader is a slow fighter- the EU comments on this as well.

Ben was an old man who was extremely out of practice and lacked the ability to use the force to overcome his physical limitations, like Sidious and Yoda who used it to give themselves speed- Dooku, meanwhile, was fit and was constantly practicting, unlike Obi-Wan.

Now then, do you understand? ROTJ. Luke. Is. Slower. Than. The. Jedi. In. The. PT. GL. Said. So. Deal. With. It

1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

if they had the technology to rebuild him in such a manner, they should have been able to do so to vader.

General( who was basically the star wars robocop) grevous had more parts replaced than vader but was still faster....yet another logical contradiction

3) understand they didnt have CGI back then, do you know what that means???? if they had it they would have used it but they didnt, you CANNOT rule special effects out and the gl explanations are inadequate

Originally posted by Man of Christ
[B]1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

Biodroid = Biological Droid. He's a Kaleesh encased in a Krath War Droid.

Grievous IS A BIODROID! Oh my!

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

if they had the technology to rebuild him in such a manner, they should have been able to do so to vader.

General( who was basically the star wars robocop) grevous had more parts replaced than vader but was still faster....yet another logical contradiction

3) understand they didnt have CGI back then, do you know what that means???? if they had it they would have used it but they didnt, you CANNOT rule special effects out and the gl explanations are inadequate

Just to reiterate, vader was b*tching to himself on the poor make-up of his suit, he was also inwardly complaining about how Sidious had used him, but whatever.

IF----try to understand the operative word--------IF they had CGI in the 70's, YES, Vader would be like Grievous. But he's not! He's not like Grievous: a few organs, eyes and a brain encased into a metal body, he's still a torso and a head encased in a metal body. With no Jedi left to fight, why would Palpatine give his would-be-successor the means to overthrow him. Training as a Sith is fine, but so long as Vader remains substantially weaker (especially to electrolysis) and immobile, Palpatine' secure on his throne.

Ben and Yoda became old and out of shape, and Luke was ill-trained. Stop trying to rework the franchise in your own image.

Dude Vader was slower because they had to build the suit around the remaining parts of his body which was much more than Grievous had. If the emperor wanted Vader to be as fast as Grievous than he would lose even force potential and that would make him weaker. This is this basic star wars 101 here, not to hard to understand. As everyone said about a half doezen times now, Yoda and Obiwan didnt practice combat or try to get stronger in the force so they became weaker. If they tried to get stronger (specifically in the use of the force which can aid one physically in combat) then they ran the risk of the emperor sensing them and killing them before Luke even met them. So then the Sith could win before Luke even hits puberty.

Originally posted by Tangible God
If you were missing all of your limbs and was flambeed, only to be suited up in a giant walking lung with metal arms and legs... do you think you'd move as fast you would now?

Just to reiterate, vader was b*tching to himself on the poor make-up of his suit, he was also inwardly complaining about how Sidious had used him, but whatever.

IF----try to understand the operative word--------IF they had CGI in the 70's, YES, Vader would be like Grievous. But he's not! He's not like Grievous: a few organs, eyes and a brain encased into a metal body, he's still a torso and a head encased in a metal body. With no Jedi left to fight, why would Palpatine give his would-be-successor the means to overthrow him. Training as a Sith is fine, but so long as Vader remains substantially weaker (especially to electrolysis) and immobile, Palpatine' secure on his throne.

Ben and Yoda became old and out of shape, and Luke was ill-trained. Stop trying to rework the franchise in your own image.

i am not re working the franchise in my image i am simply pointing out the holes in the plot.

but lets take a logic walk if you will.
if palp wanted to use anakin and milk as much of him as possible then why not give him grevous like limbs.

essentially, palp and vader had killed most known force potentials. so if there is no garuntee of anyone replacing vader any time soon why not fortify vader

Originally posted by The Sociopath
If you're arguing (Generally, that is) that the OT and PT Jedis are the same speed, you're quite silly. You did watch Anakin VS Kenobi in ROTS, right? Or Kenobi/Anakin VS Dooku, right? Or Sidious VS Yoda, right? That's just one prequel movie, not counting the intense speed Kenobi had to throw down during his duel against Grievous. The fastest dueling I saw in the OT was when Luke hammered Vader down to his knees in ROTJ, and even that wasn't all that quick.

If you're just referring to Mace, I suggest you pay attention to the Clone Wars animated series or watch AOTC again. ROTS too, maybe?

no im not arguing that the OT duels were as good as the PT ones.. that would be stupid. but im arguing that if Mace wasnt that good in his moves "visually" and yet he defeated Sidious, then that is proof that you can not judge the OT duels simply by the way they look. and by the way, the ESB and ROTJ duels were quite fast paced and did look quite good. the choreography was decent, and all that was missing was CGI. which of course didnt exist in those days.

also if we are to judge them simply by the way they looked, then that means, Obi-Wan and Anakin do not fight with super human speed, as their fights were not speeded up.

I think you need to pay better attention to Mace in AOTC again. he did 2 leaps.. so what? are you forgetting Luke's incredibly fast leap in ESB. but apart from that, he did not look any faster or better than ESB and ROTJ Luke & Vader.

also u cant compare a cartoon to the films.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

if palp wanted to use anakin and milk as much of him as possible then why not give him grevous like limbs.

You have been told the reason why many times now. Grievous had no part of his outer body like a torso,arms and legs remaining from his original body, so he can be given droid parts that are capable of abilities that a human arm can not do. If Palpatine wanted vader to have arms like that then he would need to cut off his entire arm lowering his force potential/raw power even further and he would be less than 80% of Sidious.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
You have been told the reason why many times now. Grievous had no part of his outer body like a torso,arms and legs remaining from his original body, so he can be given droid parts that are capable of abilities that a human arm can not do. If Palpatine wanted vader to have arms like that then he would need to cut off his entire arm lowering his force potential/raw power even further and he would be less than 80% of Sidious.

please prove that????

what i am asking you to prove is that one needs to be missing more parts to get the better upgrade.
also anakin was a master technichan and engineer, but we dont see any of that in the OT, couldnt he have fixed his own legs.

also the argument that less body= less force potetial doesnt seem to make sense. for 2 reasons

anakin had a mechanical arm in rots but was WAY better than in aotc

yoda was very small but had massive FP.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

First of all, in chapter 10 of Rise of Darth Vader, Vader is seen musing about the severe limitations of his armor- according to him, it severely hindered his ability, mobility, and slowed his reaction time, clearly resulting in lowering speed.

Vader wasn't about his speed- he was immensely strong. And while he might not have been exactly 'slow', he certainly wasn't fast. Therefore, faster duelists would completely destroy him in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

Grievous is a droid with a 'human' conscience and organs. Vader is a severely crippled man in a suit. There's a massive difference between them.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
if they had the technology to rebuild him in such a manner, they should have been able to do so to vader.

No, no, no. If they had turned Vader into a bio-droid; sure, he could hold four lightsabers, but he would just be a droid. By Vader's own musings, Sidious intentionally put him in such a crippling suit, encouraging him to become stronger (and while not necessarily true, it's, once again, an indication of how much the suit hindered his mobility and speed). Vader needed to be able to use the force; that's why Sidious selected him in the first place.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
General( who was basically the star wars robocop) grevous had more parts replaced than vader but was still faster....yet another logical contradiction

Fail logic. More Machine =/= slower. On the contrary; Vader was flesh and blood inside a heavy, clumsy suit while Grievous was almost entirely a droid, so he could utilize his reflexes, and agility to the max, while Vader had to overcome the limitations posed by the bulk of his armor; Grievous' droid parts IS Grievous' body. Vader's armor is a life-support system keeping the flesh and blood part of him alive.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
3) understand they didnt have CGI back then, do you know what that means???? if they had it they would have used it but they didnt, you CANNOT rule special effects out and the gl explanations are inadequate

Sure, if they had CGI then, the fights might've better. But you know what? They weren't. So GL used an excuse to tell us why the fights in the PT better (your version). But guess what? Anything GL says is canon. You CANNOT argue against it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First of all, in chapter 10 of Rise of Darth Vader, Vader is seen musing about the severe limitations of his armor- according to him, it severely hindered his ability, mobility, and slowed his reaction time, clearly resulting in lowering speed.

Vader wasn't about his speed- he was immensely strong. And while he might not have been exactly 'slow', he certainly wasn't fast. Therefore, faster duelists would completely destroy him in lightsaber combat.

Grievous is a droid with a 'human' conscience and organs. Vader is a severely crippled man in a suit. There's a massive difference between them.

No, no, no. If they had turned Vader into a bio-droid; sure, he could hold four lightsabers, but he would just be a droid. By Vader's own musings, Sidious intentionally put him in such a crippling suit, encouraging him to become stronger (and while not necessarily true, it's, once again, an indication of how much the suit hindered his mobility and speed). Vader needed to be able to use the force; that's why Sidious selected him in the first place.

Fail logic. More Machine =/= slower. On the contrary; Vader was flesh and blood inside a heavy, clumsy suit while Grievous was almost entirely a droid, so he could utilize his reflexes, and agility to the max, while Vader had to overcome the limitations posed by the bulk of his armor; Grievous' droid parts IS Grievous' body. Vader's armor is a life-support system keeping the flesh and blood part of him alive.

Sure, if they had CGI then, the fights might've better. But you know what? They weren't. So GL used an excuse to tell us why the fights in the PT better (your version). But guess what? Anything GL says is canon. You CANNOT argue against it.

1) grevous is a cyborg not a dorid, ever heard of a kaleesh???

2) they could have given hima better suit that maintained his FP

3)why accept galring contradictions as cannon?????????? Gl is not perfect and makes mistakes, so not even his words are infallable when he contradicts himself.

like why didnt ben recognize c3p0 and r2d2?
when vader dueled ben he looked like a scared 5 year old and looked like he forgot djem so........
ben was supposed to be a soresu master but we see him stabbing at vader in thier duel which is not something a soresu duelist would do.
the clones' masks look completely diffrent.
i think GL destroyed his own sense of continuity when he chose to be like sophocles who produced antigone before producing oedipus rex.
technologically its like they went foward into the dark ages.

I know i have said a lot but my conclusion is this WE CANNOT judge how good the ot characters are by how they look in movies. because if we did, then aotc anakin would murder his anh self but we know this clearly isnt the case

Death Star confirmed that the mechanized supplements for Vader's suit were old as **** (being around since Grievous's own), but Vader's accident was not premeditated or orchestrated and a lot more of him survived than Grievous [Sidious wanted an apprentice, not a walking droid], thus he was ham strung by circumstances and was forced to basically grab whatever shit he could before Vader died from his injuries. The book also confirmed that to be released from his suit at all would result in death, so "like it or not, he and the suit were bonded forever".

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) grevous is a cyborg not a dorid, ever heard of a kaleesh???

2) they could have given hima better suit that maintained his FP

3)why accept galring contradictions as cannon?????????? Gl is not perfect and makes mistakes, so not even his words are infallable when he contradicts himself.

like why didnt ben recognize c3p0 and r2d2?
when vader dueled ben he looked like a scared 5 year old and looked like he forgot djem so........
ben was supposed to be a soresu master but we see him stabbing at vader in thier duel which is not something a soresu duelist would do.
the clones' masks look completely diffrent.
i think GL destroyed his own sense of continuity when he chose to be like sophocles who produced antigone before producing oedipus rex.
technologically its like they went foward into the dark ages.

I know i have said a lot but my conclusion is this WE CANNOT judge how good the ot characters are by how they look in movies. because if we did, then aotc anakin would murder his anh self but we know this clearly isnt the case

No.

There isn't a 'better suit'- unless, of course, Vader was correct and Sidious intentionally put him in a suit to force him to overcome his own limitations. As he muses to himself in the RODV, the barrier on his power was mainly his damaged psyche rather than his injuries- and somehow, due to some twisted reason, forcing him to 'overcome' himself might cause him to regain his former power.

Right then. General Grievous and Vader are both, by definition, cyborgs, due to the fact that they are partially organic and partially machine- however, Grievous, due to the fact that his body was primarily droid and the only organic pieces he had were a few internal organs, a brain, and eyes- he's even called a 'bio-droid' several times by the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel. Meanwhile, you have Vader, who is a damaged man in a suit. He's not mostly a droid, unlike Grievous, otherwise he would've been incapable of utilizing the force; as you see, there's an extreme difference between Grievous and Vader. If the two were to fight, Grievous would probably come out on top in the saber category- but in the force and all out? Vader would destroy him. Sidious wanted a Sith, not a droid, for an apprentice.

Right then. There are several 'plausible' explanations as to why Ben didn't recognize R2 and 3PO; he could've forgotten, or he could've been playing like he didn't remember. Dude, I could dismiss everything GL said as a 'mistake' if I wanted to- but anything said by him is CANON. The highest canon. More canon than you.

Also, if you want to, give me quotes of Luke's and Vader's "Uber speed!!!11!!" in the novels, so we can compare them to the depictions of Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, RotS Anakin and the likes fighting.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No.

There isn't a 'better suit'- unless, of course, Vader was correct and Sidious intentionally put him in a suit to force him to overcome his own limitations. As he muses to himself in the RODV, the barrier on his power was mainly his damaged psyche rather than his injuries- and somehow, due to some twisted reason, forcing him to 'overcome' himself might cause him to regain his former power.

Right then. General Grievous and Vader are both, by definition, cyborgs, due to the fact that they are partially organic and partially machine- however, Grievous, due to the fact that his body was primarily droid and the only organic pieces he had were a few internal organs, a brain, and eyes- he's even called a 'bio-droid' several times by the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel. Meanwhile, you have Vader, who is a damaged man in a suit. He's not mostly a droid, unlike Grievous, otherwise he would've been incapable of utilizing the force; as you see, there's an extreme difference between Grievous and Vader. If the two were to fight, Grievous would probably come out on top in the saber category- but in the force and all out? Vader would destroy him. Sidious wanted a Sith, not a droid, for an apprentice.

Right then. There are several 'plausible' explanations as to why Ben didn't recognize R2 and 3PO; he could've forgotten, or he could've been playing like he didn't remember. Dude, I could dismiss everything GL said as a 'mistake' if I wanted to- but anything said by him is [B]CANON. The highest canon. More canon than you.

Also, if you want to, give me quotes of Luke's and Vader's "Uber speed!!!11!!" in the novels, so we can compare them to the depictions of Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, RotS Anakin and the likes fighting. [/B]

afraid to think to analyze falacies for yourself?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
please prove that????

what i am asking you to prove is that one needs to be missing more parts to get the better upgrade.

Look at Grievous and Vader and compare their sideborg bodies. if Sidious wanted Anakin to lose more potential than he could have given him the Grievous treatment but then he traded in Dooku for a much weaker apprentice especially in the force.

also anakin was a master technichan and engineer, but we dont see any of that in the OT, couldnt he have fixed his own legs

also the argument that less body= less force potetial doesnt seem to make sense. for 2 reasons.

To you maybe, its not the body size but the fact that you have your whole body and no robotic parts and remember medichlorians.

anakin had a mechanical arm in rots but was WAY better than in aotc.

He only lost his hand then and he had much better force mastery and his lightsaber skills also improved obviously.

yoda was very small but had massive FP

"BIGGER BODIEZ = BETTER FORCE POTENTIAL!!1!" was never the contention, Man of Christ, thus your comparison with Yoda fails; though I must say that Elite Hunter didn't do an awe inspiring job of explaining it (I find the "size matters not" explanation to be a little misplaced). The argument itself is supported by Lumiya, former Emperor's Hand and self-proclaimed Dark Lady of the Sith, and she instructed Jacen Solo that neither Darth Vader nor herself could ever truly become "a master" because the Force requires a "living body" to handle its demands; both herself and Vader were mechanical. Darth Sidious disagrees and George Lucas seems to straddle both of the arguments. Your misdirection of Yoda being abnormally small and yet having (presumably) the second highest recorded midichlorian count doesn't conflict with either argument; Lumiya's contention was that you needed your whole body to achieve full potential, not more biomass.

Originally posted by Gideon
Death Star confirmed that the mechanized supplements for Vader's suit were old as **** (being around since Grievous's own), but Vader's accident was not premeditated or orchestrated and a lot more of him survived than Grievous [Sidious wanted an apprentice, not a walking droid], thus he was ham strung by circumstances and was forced to basically grab whatever shit he could before Vader died from his injuries. The book also confirmed that to be released from his suit at all would result in death, so "like it or not, he and the suit were bonded forever".

could he not even take the suit off in his pressurised chamber??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
could he not even take the suit off in his pressurised chamber??

What are the odds that the two of us would post simultaneously? I can only hope my brilliant paragraph is not overlooked because you got the most recent post...

As to your question: apparently not. The omniscient narrator dictates that if Vader were excised from the suit at all, he would die.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
afraid to think to analyze falacies for yourself?

Let me ask you something:

Do you think that you know more about Star Wars than George Lucas? Are you saying that your views are more valid than the person who created the entire Star Wars franchise?

Is that what you are saying?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Let me ask you something:

Do you think that you know more about Star Wars than George Lucas? Are you saying that your views are more valid than the person who created the entire Star Wars franchise?

Is that what you are saying?

With respect to George Lucas and respect to his position on the saga [him being the ultimate authority], it's plain as day that there are times when the man has no ****ing clue as to what he's talking about. He contradicts himself on numerous occasions (i.e. "LOLZ IT WAS ALWAYS ANAKIN'S STORY!!1!," "THERE WERE ALWAYS GONNA BE 6 MOVIES!!1!," "DARTH VADER IS WEAK AS SHIT, PATHETIC," "DARTH VADER IS EIGHTY PERCENT OF MY REALLY POWERFUL SITH LORD MAIN VILLAIN,"😉. After he runs his mouth and goes back to his zillion dollar ranch and counts his money, Leland Chee is sitting at his desk 'til 1 am going "...shit." -- because he has to take piles and piles of crap and make Michelangelo-class sculptures out of it.

I feel so sorry for that dude.