Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I watched Stand Alone Complex. Good show.
Originally posted by Mindship
Yes. Cool movie. It was inspired in part by Arthur Koestler's book, Ghost in the Machine, where Koestler first coins the term "holon," which is a fascinating concept in itself.
Cool beans.
The Movies and TV series covers a lot of what we are talking about.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
AI sorta scares me.I watched the movie "AI" and it made me cry...crybaby
The nature of intelligence is benevolent, but that does not mean it cannot be used for evil purposes by corrupt men. Fear your fellow men, for they are corrupt and they will use the power of intelligence to enslave their fellow men.
Already the concentration of power is such, that presidents|dictators|etc can cause extreme environmental and global damage by pressing a few buttons making a few calls. They're holding the world hostage, that's what we've done by handing the power of nuclear weapons to our leaders... they've become the ultimate terrorists, holding the world in the palm of their hands.
If Bush said let's end it all, it would be all over. And religious conservatives intend to keep putting people such as Bush in power.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
The mental state of the person you mention in your scenerio it's consider important. The shock to discover that they lost their body and are now confine to a metal case could be too shocking. For this case both physical and psychological therapy would be require and should be provided. As I mention before, I'm sure the body of the person can be clone and transfer his memory back to the new body.
This is irrelevant to the point.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur XBut history has shown us that great power such as this WILL get into the wrong hands.
IT shouldn't artificial intelligence, like artificial molecular machines(advanced nanotech) can outclass the natural intelligences and natural biological machines in many areas, but not in all categories. Natural selection has been optimizing molecular machinery for energy efficiency and computational|information processing efficiency for billions of years, it's hit too many nails for it to be suboptimal, in less than a few areas, at its effort.The nature of intelligence is benevolent, but that does not mean it cannot be used for evil purposes by corrupt men. Fear your fellow men, for they are corrupt and they will use the power of intelligence to enslave their fellow men.
Already the concentration of power is such, that presidents|dictators|etc can cause extreme environmental and global damage by pressing a few buttons making a few calls. They're holding the world hostage, that's what we've done by handing the power of nuclear weapons to our leaders... they've become the ultimate terrorists, holding the world in the palm of their hands.
If Bush said let's end it all, it would be all over. And religious conservatives intend to keep putting people such as Bush in power.
In your opinion how could this "getting into the wrong hands" be accomplished without taking all of our humanness out of the picture and letting machines make all the decisions? And who would program these machines or computers, and as we all know there are glitches.
IMO, we are not ready for such things.
Originally posted by Deja~vuThe spread of nuclear weapons, and soon biological tech will allow super-humanity exterminating viruses from any garage|cave is an inevitability. Without artificial intelligence to develop solutions as fast as problems arise, the world is destined to self-destruct.
But history has shown us that great power such as this WILL get into the wrong hands.In your opinion how could this "getting into the wrong hands" be accomplished without taking all of our humanness out of the picture and letting machines make all the decisions? And who would program these machines or computers, and as we all know there are glitches.
IMO, we are not ready for such things.
The only hope is that somehow the power of intelligence is discovered nearly simiultaneously by many researchers, and made public, that this occurs with no serious gap in time of development or power will concentrate too much and it will be unstoppable... humanity could end up enslaved in a dictatorship with immortal rulers, be they men(natural machines) or artificial machines.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
The spread of nuclear weapons, and soon biological tech will allow super-humanity exterminating viruses from any garage|cave is an inevitability. Without artificial intelligence to develop solutions as fast as problems arise, the world is destined to self-destruct.The only hope is that somehow the power of intelligence is discovered nearly simiultaneously by many researchers, and made public, that this occurs with no serious gap in time of development or power will concentrate too much and it will be unstoppable... humanity could end up enslaved in a dictatorship with immortal rulers, be they men(natural machines) or artificial machines.
That's very pessimistic and unlikely.
As we unlock the human mind, we will be able to progress in developing AI. Unlocking the abilities of AI are tied directly to unlocking the mysteries of the human brain. Coincidentally, unlocking the human mind opens up what will probably be more explored, cybernetics.
Cybernetics will have a much larger appeal, in the beginning. It is the typical quick fix that humans crave. Quadriplegia, missing limbs, paraplegia, etc. Those can all be remedied with a neural interface and a the corresponding machine. There's also strength enhancement.
Nano-technology, which is, for the most part, independent of cybernetics, will be developed along side of cybernetics. Nano-technology has a ridiculous volume of applications. Depending on which comes first, cybernetics or nano-technology, we will see one rise to the top and be the primarily sought after technology and then slowly the other will trickle in. Both are already under development and successes have been seen on each side.
We may have computers that are as powerful as the human mind, but there may not be any software that can pass that AI test. Having the computing power and having software that mimics sentience are two different things. Like I said before, some believe that truly mimicking sentience will never be reached. Some of the same naysayers are also theists who believe that the soul is a necessary portion of sentience.
Originally posted by dadudemon
We may have computers that are as powerful as the human mind, but there may not be any software that can pass that AI test. Having the computing power and having software that mimics sentience are two different things. Like I said before, some believe that truly mimicking sentience will never be reached. Some of the same naysayers are also theists who believe that the soul is a necessary portion of sentience.
Originally posted by Mindship
This, I feel, is the real crux of the AI issue: what it means to be alive. It begs the transcendent reality question.
As a theist myself, a part of me believes that artificial intelligence at a human sentience level may never be reachable. The other part, the scientific computer nerd part, believes whole heartedly that eventually, the extremely detailed and minor nuances can eventually be programmed so that it mimics completely tangible sentience.
On the latter, are we not just an extremely complex program of millions of subroutines running simultaneously in a holistic manner? Can that not eventually be achieved? That underlying routine that makes the system of subroutines "holistic" could be the soul...but what if the symbiosis of these routines can be mimicked? Right now, I believe that THAT underlying routine is the soul...the self...sentience. THAT is truly the hurdle of AI. The routine outside the routines. The cohesive "organic" routine.
Originally posted by dadudemon
As a theist myself, a part of me believes that artificial intelligence at a human sentience level may never be reachable. The other part, the scientific computer nerd part, believes whole heartedly that eventually, the extremely detailed and minor nuances can eventually be programmed so that it mimics completely tangible sentience.On the latter, are we not just an extremely complex program of millions of subroutines running simultaneously in a holistic manner? Can that not eventually be achieved? That underlying routine that makes the system of subroutines "holistic" could be the soul...but what if the symbiosis of these routines can be mimicked? Right now, I believe that THAT underlying routine is the soul...the self...sentience. THAT is truly the hurdle of AI. The routine outside the routines. The cohesive "organic" routine.
I'm more what you'd call a meta-theist, but basically I have the same thoughts: is there some transempirical quality AI just won't ever get? And yet, even if there is a transcendent quality, would sufficient complexity be enough to "summon it down" in a manner similar to life? And even if there is no transcendent quality, will true AI lack (how shall I put it) the "evolutionary heritage" or the "cosmic time factor" possessed by living things (implying that there is a fundamental difference between what nature generates over the eons and what humans can build in a few decades time)?
Along these lines of thought...
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=memelist.html?m=4%23688
(first article)
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's very pessimistic and unlikely.As we unlock the human mind, we will be able to progress in developing AI. Unlocking the abilities of AI are tied directly to unlocking the mysteries of the human brain. Coincidentally, unlocking the human mind opens up what will probably be more explored, cybernetics.
Cybernetics will have a much larger appeal, in the beginning. It is the typical quick fix that humans crave. Quadriplegia, missing limbs, paraplegia, etc. Those can all be remedied with a neural interface and a the corresponding machine. There's also strength enhancement.
Nano-technology, which is, for the most part, independent of cybernetics, will be developed along side of cybernetics. Nano-technology has a ridiculous volume of applications. Depending on which comes first, cybernetics or nano-technology, we will see one rise to the top and be the primarily sought after technology and then slowly the other will trickle in. Both are already under development and successes have been seen on each side.
We may have computers that are as powerful as the human mind, but there may not be any software that can pass that AI test. Having the computing power and having software that mimics sentience are two different things. Like I said before, some believe that truly mimicking sentience will never be reached. Some of the same naysayers are also theists who believe that the soul is a necessary portion of sentience.
The human mind, the general natural intelligence code, that is physically implemented in the rules the brain's cells follow, is an meme evolutionary algorithm implemented in a swarm-like intelligence through competition, survival and strengthening of links|synapses. A memetic evolution algorithm, that recombines ideas and knowledge while bypassing seeming peaks in the landscape of possibilities. I intend to give such code to the united states, and create in this world, what the spanish once had... the INVINCIBLE ARMADA.
Sentience is an illusion, the self an illusion of a model causally tied directly to reward and punishment signals, qualia are illusions arising out of statistical relationships within a neural network embodied in the brain.
I will create a GOD to arbitrate, and he shall rule all beings.
I'm an agi researcher, and I believe I finally have it, the algorithm that can write code, prove theorems, dream dreams.
Humans are machines, natural machines... matter, functions of matter, patterns of matter that survive in the sea of entropy. Machines composed of machines|cells, that came from simpler machines|unicellular organisms, that came from simpler machines self-replicating molecular systems.... ideas in a sea of ideas.
All is information, matter, energy, everything is information. A moment in time, is a perfect mathematical structure|state, the relationship between one moment and the next, the qualia of time, is what emerges out of the statistical relationship that exists between moments.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
The human mind, the general natural intelligence code,
You mean "meter stick".
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
that is physically implemented in the rules the brain's cells follow,
Very redundant.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
is an meme evolutionary algorithm implemented in a swarm-like intelligence through competition, survival and strengthening of links|synapses.
You're naming off fundamental genetic behaviors and placing them in the same category of strengthening links/synapses. Rather, the result of successful memes would REINFORCE those neuronic links that those memetic behaviors and memories are associated with.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
A memetic evolution algorithm, that recombines ideas and knowledge while bypassing seeming peaks in the landscape of possibilities.
This is an incomplete thought. What were you going to say about an evolutionary memetic algorithm? Oh wait...I think I get it. If I delete the comma and the word "that", I think that's what you were trying to say, right?
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
I intend to give such code to the united states, and create in this world, what the spanish once had... the [b]INVINCIBLE ARMADA.[/B]
Thank you very much for that. Give the US you "memetic evolution algorithms" so we can conquer the world.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
Sentience is an illusion, the self an illusion of a model causally tied directly to reward and punishment signals,
False. The "self" has multiple manifestions, is tied to multiple systems, and has a direct affect on many different systems that we have narrowed down with psychological titles (I'm sure inimalist could give us a bunch). Narrowing it down to just reward and punishment mechnisms (which include hormones, and cell site receptors) is a gross and incorrect oversimplification.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
qualia are illusions arising out of statistical relationships within a neural network embodied in the brain.
No, qualia (more than one definition, bub.) are interpreted/perceived by the self. This "self" is not easily definable. Also, it is redundant to say "neural network embodied in the brain". Would someone confuse that for the neural network in the foot?
"statistical relationships"? Come on, dude.
Here's a suggestion, call it "related statistical probabilities arising from seemingly illusory interpretations of qualia as perceived and processed by the complex neural network known as the brain." I hope to hell that you don't take that seriously and start using it with other people.
Also, if it is all an illusion, that makes us all p-zombies? Well, that would explain your convoluted attempt at claiming a soul is not necessary for human-like AI.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
I will create a GOD to arbitrate, and he shall rule all beings.
Instead, you should spend more time being direct with your words, learning more about actual medical science instead of memes and qualia, and stop trying to be so mystical sounding.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
I'm an agi researcher, and I believe I finally have it, the algorithm that can write code, prove theorems, dream dreams.
You're lying, and it's "AGI" researcher.
If you had done that, you wouldn't be talking about it on a movie message board, would you? There are much better places to reveal such information. I think you know this. So why would you say something like that here?
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
Humans are machines, natural machines... matter, functions of matter, patterns of matter that survive in the sea of entropy.
Again with the random words. We are not in a sea of entropy. We are in a sea of order. As times goes by, entropy will increase. Right now, our universe is very young. You can't go on about matter humans machines functions of matter and then call them elements in an entropic system. True, that it serves as a contrastment to further your point...but no really. You can't allude to to deity, even if unintended, when you are making a point for the absence of the soul. Order in chaos is the argument of the theists. Capisce?
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
Machines composed of machines|cells, that came from simpler machines|unicellular organisms, that came from simpler machines self-replicating molecular systems.... ideas in a sea of ideas.
More mysticism, I see. You could come off more mystical if you would have said, "organized chaos in the primordial soups of evolution." It would have been a nice metaphor for the future of AI and a representation of the literal origins of organic life.
Also, there's a flaw in your retrogression flow: These artificial machines you speak of...the would be created by ORGANIC machines and not simpler machines. The primordial soup of machines will occur in a lab among people you alluded to as p-zombies. Man, it feels like I'm telling you that the Easter bunny isn't real.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
All is information, matter, energy, everything is information.
No, everything is a sea of entropy.
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
A moment in time, is a perfect mathematical structure|state, the relationship between one moment and the next, the qualia of time, is what emerges out of the statistical relationship that exists between moments.
Stop just throwing words together to sound mystical. You can't, basically, claim that the soul doesn't exit, humans are p-zombies, the universe is entropic, and then say things like "qualia of time" and "mathematical structure and state". No moment in time is without mathematical structure and state. In fact, all systems, regardless of time stamps given (again, qualia assignment). Systems with an infinite amount of time assigned to them are still mathematically assignable. (So as to not sound mystical, I'm talking about going beyond the simple 4 dimensions.)
"the statistical relationship that exists between moments"? What type of statistics are you running on time that you have encapsulated and measured? Just to throw a wrench into you lab work, did you forget about he Heisenberg uncertainty principle?
Originally posted by Mindship
I'm more what you'd call a meta-theist, but basically I have the same thoughts: is there some transempirical quality AI just won't ever get?
I was aware of that; we've talked about this before in the religion thread. I just failed to use the appropriate terminology. Labels can be important, not for sentimental reasons, but for accuracy reasons. My bad for "doing it wrong".
Originally posted by Mindship
And yet, even if there is a transcendent quality, would sufficient complexity be enough to "summon it down" in a manner similar to life? And even if there is no transcendent quality, will true AI lack (how shall I put it) the "evolutionary heritage" or the "cosmic time factor" possessed by living things (implying that there is a fundamental difference between what nature generates over the eons and what humans can build in a few decades time)?
This begs the philosophical theory of p-zombies. Would the machines be what we define as p-zombies? Maybe. If there is some sort of transcendent reality then, yes, we would be creating p-zombies instead of true AI...or rather, true sentience.
Who knows how these differences would manifest themselves. Would we even notice the differences? Would they even be noticeable?
Originally posted by Mindship
Along these lines of thought...
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=memelist.html?m=4%23688
(first article)
Cool.
On another note, this other guy needs to take notes from you. You are able to keep the "mystical" feel of you posts, pontificate, AND accurately get you ideas across. We are all here for those reasons, right? 😆
It just pisses me off when someone is a poser. Sometimes, they "trick" others into thinking that the posers actually know what they are talking about because the tricked don't know any better.
Originally posted by dadudemonSeems my memory needs a reboot.
I was aware of that; we've talked about this before in the religion thread.
Who knows how these differences would manifest themselves. Would we even notice the differences? Would they even be noticeable?Oh man, ain't this tough enough without another variable...
On another note, this other guy needs to take notes from you. You are able to keep the "mystical" feel of you posts, pontificate, AND accurately get you ideas across.Why, thank you, sir. This is because I try to see how much mystical stuff I can sneak in without triggering a retort. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Mindship
Seems my memory needs a reboot.
nah, I'm just an internet stalker...I'm going to rap the "ship" out of you. 😆
Originally posted by Mindship
Oh man, ain't this tough enough without another variable...
The philosophical reality of AI machines or virtual machines being the pure definition of p-zombies is just oh-so applicable. It's your fault, you implied it. 😛
Originally posted by Mindship
Why, thank you, sir. This is because I try to see how much mystical stuff I can sneak in without triggering a retort. 😖hifty:
Indeed. I've come along way. Remember back in the day when I got pissed about your posts and told you to stop with the mystical pontification? And then I apologized to you because I got chided by a philosophy professor at my gym when I asked him about it? (I know...internet stalking again.)
Originally posted by dadudemonYeah. I wanted to cover all bases. Basically, we're going to have to understand consciousness, not just the empirical correlates.
The philosophical reality of AI machines or virtual machines being the pure definition of p-zombies is just oh-so applicable. It's your fault, you implied it. 😛
Indeed. I've come along way. Remember back in the day when I got pissed about your posts and told you to stop with the mystical pontification? And then I apologized to you because I got chided by a philosophy professor at my gym when I asked him about it? (I know...internet stalking again.)To Back in the Day ... cheers