Living Tribunal VS GEB

OK, lets straighten out the facts, shall we?

The current Yahweh of Vertigo is the result of the Great Evil Beast and the Ultimate Light merging--scans can be found in the respect thread of the Great Evil Beast by Endless Mike.

Light + GEB = Yahweh -- 1 + 1 = 2

So obviously Yahweh would be above them (Light and GEB) both. Both were powerful, and both were limited*, obviously the result would be greater than each one of them.

Yahweh > Light = GEB -- 2 > 1 = 1

Yahweh's flaws from Vertigo proves that he was in fact not omnipotent, there were tasks he was incapable of preforming shaping himself for one (he needed Lucifer's help).

Supreme > Yahweh

I'm not saying that the Living Tribunal would win, there's an endless amount of stages between him and the supreme. But so is it also between Yahweh and the supreme and the GEB and the supreme.

So, kids, remember this.

Infinite + Infinite = 2 * Infinite

2 * Infinite > Infinite

(I'm not even going to get into the 'Presence isn't supreme' crap 🙂)

Erik,
I would like to know why you think LT would win against GEB.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Erik,
I would like to know why you think LT would win against GEB.

I don't.

But lately, I decided to debate what I think to be false. You might have noticed this in other threads also 🙂

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So, kids, remember this.

Infinite + Infinite = 2 * Infinite

2 * Infinite > Infinite

If you want to make an infinity greater you either have to add another infinity, multiply with a number greater than one or square with a number greater than one.

However, the chances of -- 2 * infinity > infinity, if they're completely separate it's only 67% chance that the 2 * infinity is greater than the infinity.

For instance, all numbers between 0 and 1 is infinity. All numbers between 1 and 3 is infinity. Which is the greater? It's impossible to tell, but probability tells us that the infinity numbers between 1 and 3 are 67% to be greater than the former.

If we now said all numbers between 1 and 2, and 1 and 3, the numbers between 1 and 2 would be a part of 1 to 3, hence making it certain that all numbers in-between 1 and 3 > all numbers inbetween 1 and 2.

This is the case of Yahweh, as he has both the Light and GEB's infinity within him. Meaning the probability of it being greater than any of the other infinities is 100%.

It's called transfinite numbers, and they extend infinity.

(I'm not even going to get into the 'Presence isn't supreme' crap 🙂)

^This actually makes sense.

Too bad the number analogy is irrelevant, since it has nothing to do with the thread and the Yahweh/Ultimate Light/Great Evil Beast. Why ? Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything so you can't compare one infinity to another since they are the same, containing everything.

Many scans in your signature are taken out of context, with personal interpretations and speculations on what they actually mean, in order to make Yahweh look weaker than he actually is. It's pretty sad really, since pretty much everybody can see that.

Originally posted by illadelph12
^This actually makes sense.

In this context, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In this context, it doesn't.

So you're of the school of thought that there can be no degrees of infinity? All infinities are equal?

Originally posted by illadelph12
So you're of the school of thought that there can be no degrees of infinity? All infinities are equal?

Where did I say that ?

Originally posted by Astner
OK, lets straighten out the facts, shall we?

The current Yahweh of Vertigo is the result of the Great Evil Beast and the Ultimate Light merging--scans can be found in the respect thread of the Great Evil Beast by Endless Mike.

Light + GEB = Yahweh -- 1 + 1 = 2

So obviously Yahweh would be above them (Light and GEB) both. Both were powerful, and both were limited*, obviously the result would be greater than each one of them.

Yahweh > Light = GEB -- 2 > 1 = 1

Yahweh's flaws from Vertigo proves that he was in fact not omnipotent, there were tasks he was incapable of preforming shaping himself for one (he needed Lucifer's help).

Supreme > Yahweh

I'm not saying that the Living Tribunal would win, there's an endless amount of stages between him and the supreme. But so is it also between Yahweh and the supreme and the GEB and the supreme.

Yhwh/The Presence/The Light never merged with TGEB then became YHWH, The Presence = YHWH, The Great Evil Beast left Heaven and returned beyond Hell after the conflict, where it has stayed ever since 😉

Originally posted by kevdude
Yhwh/The Presence/The Light never merged with TGEB then became YHWH, The Presence = YHWH, The Great Evil Beast left Heaven and returned beyond Hell after the conflict, where it has stayed ever since 😉

Now it's revealed that the GEB and Presence actually merged together, so now good and evil coexist in everything.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/gebpresencemerged.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/gebpresencemerged1.jpg

Finally the threat is over.... for the time being.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/cainabel.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
I rest my case.

They gave a piece of each other to the other to have a truce for the time being nothing more, certainly never merged and Lucifer himself in the Sandman series confirms this 🙂

You stated this of the relationship between GEB, The Light, and Yahweh, which Astner describes in his above post:

Too bad the number analogy is irrelevant, since it has nothing to do with the thread and the Yahweh/Ultimate Light/Great Evil Beast. Why ? Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything so you can't compare one infinity to another since they are the same, containing everything.

Astner references scans and on panel evidence that would suggest that GEB is not all encompassing, though it is infinite. Your opinion is that this is not the case and GEB is all encompassing.

Given the nature of the character (GEB), the nature of his opponent (LT), and the context of this thread (a confrontation), how does degrees of infinity, when dealing with two infinitely powerful beings, become irrellevent? And how, by your own accounting, can GEB be all encompassing, when he only encompasses infinite darkness?

Also, I'm simply asking questions. I'm not choosing sides. I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

I was talking about power, that's why I said 'Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything'. Not encompassing in the Eternity-type of fashion.

What's my point of view in this 'infinite' discussion ? Well, depending on the context and subject being talked about, it is possible for there to be 'degrees of infinity', in mathematics etc.

And from your reply I now realize that you haven't actually followed what we were talking about. Living Tribunal wasn't the subject of the discussion, but the logic Astner used in order to deduct that Great Evil Beast isn't as powerfull as Yahweh.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Too bad the number analogy is irrelevant, since it has nothing to do with the thread and the Yahweh/Ultimate Light/Great Evil Beast. Why ? Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything so you can't compare one infinity to another since they are the same, containing everything.

In short: The Light wasn't omnipotent because it couldn't control GEB. GEB wasn't omnipotent because he couldn't control the Light. And Yahweh isn't omnipotent by his own confirmation.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Many scans in your signature are taken out of context, with personal interpretations and speculations on what they actually mean, in order to make Yahweh look weaker than he actually is. It's pretty sad really, since pretty much everybody can see that.

None of the scans in the thread are taken out of context. Or could you perhaps prove me wrong? I think not.
Yahweh's own words--

Yahweh can't mold himself, he needs Lucifer's help.

In how many ways can this be interpreted, how much speculation would change this fact? None. He was inable of commiting an act, he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I was talking about power, that's why I said 'Because in this case, the [b]'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything'. Not encompassing in the Eternity-type of fashion.

What's my point of view in this 'infinite' discussion ? Well, depending on the context and subject being talked about, it is possible for there to be 'degrees of infinity', in mathematics etc.

And from your reply I now realize that you haven't actually followed what we were talking about. Living Tribunal wasn't the subject of the discussion, but the logic Astner used in order to deduct that Great Evil Beast isn't as powerfull as Yahweh. [/B]

Understood. I was speaking solely on the premise and context of this particular battle thread (LT Vs. GEB). If you and Astner have an ongoing discussion regarding the nature of GEB & Yahweh's relationship, etc, I have no part in that.

You're not actually making a debate, unless you tend to base it on your own ignorance.
The number analogy is relevant because of the fact that there can exist greater infinities.
Neither of them were everything, not before and not after. The GEB wasn't the Light, and the Light wasn't GEB, they acted outside eachother's will.
This can futher be proven due to the fact that Yahweh confirmed he wasn't omnipotent. The result of two infinite beings resulted in another infinite being--none of them omnipotent.
In short: The Light wasn't omnipotent because it couldn't control GEB. GEB wasn't omnipotent because he couldn't control the Light. And Yahweh isn't omnipotent by his own confirmation.

Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary.

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?".
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying 🙂

-------

Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary.

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was a purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of [b]respect between us ?".
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying 🙂

-------

Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected) [/B]

This is a really REALLY REALLY good post. It just blast any disrespect of YWH out of the water.

I agree. That also makes perfect sense.