Living Tribunal VS GEB

Originally posted by Astner

You may not realize it but this is true.

If you want to make an infinity greater you either have to add another infinity, multiply with a number greater than one or square with a number greater than one.

However, the chances of -- 2 * infinity > infinity, if they're completely separate it's only 67% chance that the 2 * infinity is greater than the infinity.

For instance, all numbers between 0 and 1 is infinity. All numbers between 1 and 3 is infinity. Which is the greater? It's impossible to tell, but probability tells us that the infinity numbers between 1 and 3 are 67% to be greater than the former.

If we now said all numbers between 1 and 2, and 1 and 3, the numbers between 1 and 2 would be a part of 1 to 3, hence making it certain that all numbers in-between 1 and 3 > all numbers inbetween 1 and 2.

This is the case of Yahweh, as he has both the Light and GEB's infinity within him. Meaning the probability of it being greater than any of the other infinities is 100%.

It's called transfinite numbers, and they extend infinity.

Originally posted by Astner

You're not actually making a debate, unless you tend to base it on your own ignorance.
The number-analogy is relevant because of the fact that there can exist greater infinities.
Neither of them were everything, not before and not after. The GEB wasn't the Light, and the Light wasn't GEB, they acted outside eachother's will.
This can futher be proven due to the fact that Yahweh confirmed he wasn't omnipotent. The result of two infinite beings resulted in another infinite being--none of them omnipotent.

In short: The Light wasn't omnipotent because it couldn't control GEB. GEB wasn't omnipotent because he couldn't control the Light. And Yahweh isn't omnipotent by his own confirmation.

Ah, I see you're pulling another fallacy. "Appeal to majority" is it? You also seem to end it with a strawman (that would be two fallacies) but I'm not sure, the last is quite vague.
But then again, when the amount of information and evdience fails you, where else to turn than to a fallacy?

None of the scans in the thread are taken out of context. Or could you perhaps prove me wrong? I think not.
Yahweh's own words--

Yahweh can't mold himself, he needs Lucifer's help.

In how many ways can this be interpreted, how much speculation would change this fact? None. He was inable of commiting an act, he's not omnipotent.

All it said was that he couldn't create himself

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary.

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of [b]respect between us ?".
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying 🙂

-------

Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected) [/B]

Still the best and most thought out post in this thread.

Originally posted by Astner
If you want to make an infinity greater you either have to add another infinity

Originally posted by Galan007
Oxymoron. none

Not necessarily. Let's say you have an infinite amount of comic books. Then you get an infinite amount of DVDs. You have more than what you had before.

Originally posted by Galan007

Oxymoron.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not necessarily. Let's say you have an infinite amount of comic books. Then you get an infinite amount of DVDs. You have more than what you had before.

What if you have an infinity of EVERYTHING? How do you make that greater? you can't.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary.

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of [b]respect between us ?".
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying 🙂

-------

Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected) [/B]

U R DA MAN! 👆

So, The Light and Darkness are just two parts of the same God. Separate they are not supreme because they are incomplete but together they form The Presence who is supreme.

That the gist of it?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not necessarily. Let's say you have an infinite amount of comic books. Then you get an infinite amount of DVDs. You have more than what you had before.

Why? Because if the first variable became larger by adding more to it, then it was never truly infinite to begin with. Hence, you'd really be adding to a 'nigh-infinite' variable.

🙂.

Originally posted by Galan007
Those would technically be two separate infinities. I'm saying that adding more to infinity, in hopes of increasing it's overall value/size/whatever, is an oxymoron.

Why? Because if the first variable became larger by adding more to it, then it was never truly infinite to begin with. Hence, you'd really be adding to a 'nigh-infinite' variable.

🙂.

thumbup1

I think it's obvious that infinity in DC means something else then in Marvel.

I like Math and you have indeed an infinite possibility between 0 an 1 for example, like 0,0002 etc, it's still lesser then 1 but it is an limited infinity, limited by 0 and 1 and so not an true infinity per se.
This kind of thinking is onedimensional, at best 2d. The mathematical infinity is an paradoxon, the philosophical infinity isn't.

I guess Marvel preferes the mathematical, DC the philosophical, which is 4d ^^. And since we talk about comics it can be that mathematically speaking GEB = infinity = 1, Presence = infinity = 1 and infinity + (or x) infinity is still = infinity because it's an true infinity, as Galan stated. So basically you have 1 x 1 = 1 ind DC and 1 + 1 = in marvel 😉.

Infinity x infinity = infinity not 2 x infinity 😉 don't limit yourself with numbers, the human may not be able to grasp the infinity (which is impossible) but it's stil possible to grasp at least the possibility of an true infinity, though to do so one has to throw away the mental boundaries forced upon us.

So it seems that Marvel lacks an true infinity as all their infinities are limited.
The Marvel infinity is an decreasing infinity, it's only infinite while becoming smaller, lesser. The DC infinity expands it becomes larger.

Like in the example Marvel uses the mathematical infinities between points which are infinitly decreasing like 0,111. Anyway GEB or LT, since GEB wasn't defeated i give it to him.^^

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So it seems that Marvel lacks an true infinity as all their infinities are limited.
The Marvel infinity is an decreasing infinity,
it's only infinite while becoming smaller, lesser.
The DC infinity expands it becomes larger.

In Marvel there are levels of infinity, and they surely go up, ever increasing.

I have the proof, but I'd like to see yours first.

Originally posted by Mr Master

In Marvel there are levels of infinity, and they surely go up, ever increasing.

so much of marvel's infinity is mere hyperbolic gibberish...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Where is this stated and/or depicted in Marvel comics and/or bios?

In Marvel there are levels of infinity, and they surely go up, ever increasing.

I have the proof, but I'd like to see yours first.

Don't limit youself with bios, think.

If you have differen't levels of infinity and one infinity is greater then the other, the other infinity can't grow beyond the infinity which is greater then it, so it has to be decreasing till infinity to be called an infinity else it would be equal to the infinity above and thus the greater infinity wouldn't be an greater infinity🙂. We talked about the universal infinity, the 4d+ infinity not the 2d to 3d infinity 😉.

Originally posted by Starscream M

there cannot be levels of inifinite, either it is infinite or it is finite.

so much of marvel's infinity is mere hyperbolic gibberish...

And yes, like all theorems there are those that disagree with his findings,
but that isn't stopping any educational facility
from using Calculus (another theorem) in their curriculums.

Any how the proof:

On Panel

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................

CONTINUES ...

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"

..............................................................

Dr Strange corroborates this Marvel fact:

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"

=====================================

Real world:

It's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

:

=====================================

As you can see, Marvel even uses Cantor's name on panel.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Don't limit youself with bios, think.

If it concerns Marvel comics,
then that's the only source I have to abide by.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

If you have differen't levels of infinity and one infinity is greater then the other, the other infinity can't grow beyond the infinity which is greater then it, so it has to be decreasing till infinity to be called an infinity else it would be equal to the infinity above and thus the greater infinity wouldn't be an greater infinity. We talked about the universal infinity, the 4d+ infinity not the 2d to 3d infinity

The dude was specifically pointing out what Marvel supposedly established,
I simply asked for the proof of said claims.

There is no such proof of course.

btw.

I'm in a comic book forum dude,
I could care less if it makes sense or not.

But it's a fact,
that Marvel uses the idea (proven for many in the real world) of "levels of infinity."

🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Don't tell me what to do. Thanx.

If it concerns Marvel comics,
then that's the only source I have to abide by.

This is inconsequential.

The dude was specifically pointing out what Marvel supposedly established,
I simply asked for the proof of said claims.

There is no such proof of course.

btw.

I'm in a comic book forum dude,
I could care less if it makes sense or not.

But it's a fact,
that Marvel uses the idea (proven for many in the real world) of "levels of infinity."

🙂

As you wish, but if you don't mind, explain the levels of infinity to me with your own words, without scans 🙂.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

As you wish, but if you don't mind,
explain the levels of infinity to me with your own words, without scans.

But the scans define it lovely, why would you want a second hand clarification,
of what is already there beautifully explained by those who know a lot more than me?

I'm not going to re-type everything in those scans,
and I'm not going to copy and paste the intricacies of Cantor's discovery either.

The on panel thumb nails are there.

The link to Cantor's Theorem and all the details concerning such, is there also.

Now, if you want something from the Marvel cosmology cleared up,
I'll be more than happy to oblige friend. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's not my expertise friend, nor is it my interest,
so I can't decipher the equation that leads up to that theorem with my own words.

But the scans define it lovely, why would you want a second hand clarification,
of what is already there beautifully explained by those who know a lot more than me?

I'm not going to re-type everything in those scans,
and I'm not going to copy and paste the intricacies of Cantor's discovery either.

The on panel thumb nails are there.

The link to Cantor's Theorem and all the details concerning such, is there also.

Now, if you want something from the Marvel cosmology cleared up,
I'll be more than happy to oblige friend. 🙂

That's cool enough for me 🙂 because in the end you are right, we talk about comics 😉

cheers

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

That's cool enough for me
because in the end you are right,
we talk about comics

cheers