Originally posted by psycho gundam
if you read the books you would know the context of beyonder's might. he was an outsider and able to do as he pleased.
I had them when they FIRST came out. He was an OUTSIDER WHO DID NOT CREATE THE MARVEL U. Thus he couldn't be the supreme being as we know marvel has a creator. A supreme being. him being mentioned back then or now is of no consequence.
Originally posted by lannfear
So in comic terms....is there a being that is credited with the ultimate creation of all that there is,was or will be marvel?...that would pretty much be the supreme entity.... 😱
You hit the nail right on the head. What I've been trying to point out forever. The beyonder is NOT this being. never was.
Originally posted by lannfearSo in comic terms....
is there a being that is credited with the ultimate creation of all that there is,
was or will be marvel?...
that would pretty much be the supreme entity....
Even though I'm calling their creations comics, which they are literally,
withIN said comics this creation (comics actually)
is in fact the Reality where every story belonging to said comic takes place,
in other words,
to us, it's a comic, which it is,
but to the drawings withIN the comic, it's their Reality/Omniverse.
This does not literally apply to the representational avatars,
because the representational avatars know it's a comic they have created,
where drawings are made out to be real, when in truth of course they're not.
So in a way,
even the representational avatars
fictionalizes him/herself (meh, even they're drawings after all)
because they make it as though what they create (stories withIN comics) are real,
while simultaneously acknowledging they're just drawings on a piece of paper
who do and say what they want them to do and say.
So Marvel and DC has it set as,
these representational avatars
are actually the ones that are dictating and manipulating everything that takes place on panel,
as it should be,
they dictate and manipulate everything on a piece of paper with words.
These drawings on a piece of paper given life on panel,
includes THOTI/LT whoever and also the Presence/GEB and whoever.
So,
withIN the fictional Reality imagined and drawn by the representational avatars:
THOTI is/was the most powerful source of power in current Marvel continuity.
The Presence/GEB is the most powerful source of power in current DC continuity.
So, that's about it. 🙂
So to answer your question:
(I'll specify Marvel's history only ... it's not a chronological history btw.)
The Creators (I just explained who they were)
had the Infinity being create the Marvel Universe (we learned this in 1991)
then Sise-Neg re-created the Marvel Universe (took place in 1972)
then Genis/Entropy re-created the Marvel Universe (took place in 2002)
then Thanos/THOTI re-created the Marvel Universe (took place in 2003)
then the Alien Entity re-created the Marvel universe (took place in 2006)
These re-creation were committed from the Void (nothingness before time)
HOM Wanda re-created the Marvel Universe in 2005, but not from the Void,
she simply let out a thought, and bam, everything was re-configured,
then she put it all back with another thought, minus the Mutant gene across all Timelines.
As for classic Beyonder,
Beyonder was not created by the Infinity being (originator of all Marvel)
and like wise Beyonder did not create the Infinity being.
The Beyonder was in a separate Multiverse,
completely disconnected from everything taking place in the Marvel Universe,
where he was the embodiment of everything in it.
In fact,
Beyonder was his own Supreme being,
and had no relation to anything in the Marvel Universe.
When Beyonder (from his Ocean of a Multiverse)
discovered the infinite Marvelverse (which was a drop of water in comparison)
and which was also located outside of his reality,
he decided to enter it.
Yes it was another Supreme being's creation, the Infinity being's in fact,
and like Shooter said,
this other creation (infinite Marvelverse) was a drop of water to his Multiverse. 🙂
So yea, I agree, another Supreme being created the drop of water,
Beyonder from his Ocean then entered the drop of water,
and took over, made the most powerful abstracts tremble in fear,
and finally became Reality itself with absolute control over every iota in the Marvelverse.
The drop in an ocean is just hyperbole MrMaster, it's one of the most famous idioms there is, alongside other stuff like 'kick the bucket'. It's not literal, just means Beyonder's power and perception of reality, was vast by comparison.
However, we've seen the fact that the DC universe looks like a bag of marbles to the New Gods as well. Granted, they aren't as powerful as Beyonder, but their perception of reality, and DCU's size compared to their dimensions' size is incredible.
The origin is from Charles Dickens;
In 'A Christmas Carol'. In the first conversation between Scrooge and the ghost of his deceased partner, Marley, the ghost says: 'The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business.'
And perhaps Dicken's inspiration goes back to the bible, where they used a metaphor involving 'a drop in a bucket'.
Originally posted by JuntaiThe drop in an ocean is just hyperbole MrMaster, it's one of the most famous idioms there is, alongside other stuff like 'kick the bucket'. It's not literal, just means Beyonder's power and perception of reality, was vast by comparison.
I have proof that Beyonder created said Reality,
so without a doubt, it was not hyperbole,
just like it wasn't hyperbole when Shooter on panel stated:
"Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all of Marvel combined."
Originally posted by JuntaiHowever, we've seen the fact that the DC universe looks like a bag of marbles to the New Gods as well. Granted, they aren't as powerful as Beyonder, but their perception of reality, and DCU's size compared to their dimensions' size is incredible.
Originally posted by JuntaiThe origin is from Charles Dickens;
In 'A Christmas Carol'. In the first conversation between Scrooge and the ghost of his deceased partner, Marley, the ghost says: 'The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business.'And perhaps Dicken's inspiration goes back to the bible, where they used a metaphor involving 'a drop in a bucket'.
Originally posted by Mr MasterIt has little to do with the feats he's accomplished, or what you were getting at in the thread.....I was just saying, as it seems as if you're taking a statement of clear hyperbole - as has been used in writing for generations, examples of such dating back possible thousands of years -- as a quite literal and exact statement.
If you have proof that it's hyperbole, by all means post it good friend.
(analogies and unrelated comparisons won't do, info must come from Marvel)I have proof that Beyonder created said Reality,
so without a doubt, it was not hyperbole,
just like it wasn't hyperbole when Shooter on panel stated:
"Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all of Marvel combined."Wonderful, but this is inconsequential to Marvel and the Beyonder good friend.
I have no idea what this has to do with Beyonder true debater.
Prove that it's hyperbole? I already did. It's a famous figure of speech. Not an exact science, thus clearly hyperbole.
hy·per·bo·le
–noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
Originally posted by JuntaiIt has little to do with the feats he's accomplished, or what you were getting at in the thread.....I was just saying, as it seems as if you're taking a statement of clear hyperbole - as has been used in writing for generations, examples of such dating back possible thousands of years -- as a quite literal and exact statement.
Prove that it's hyperbole? I already did. It's a famous figure of speech. Not an exact science, thus clearly hyperbole.
hy·per·bo·le
–noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
This is all opinion contradicting what Shooter stated on every first page of Secret Wars II.
I guess you feel this is hyperbole too then:
Jim states:
Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."
Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)
.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...
.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "
"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"
Originally posted by Mr MasterI'm not trying to take anything away from the character, in fact, I agree his power and his view of reality probably was akin to that, I even gave an example of others with similar perceptions [though not power]... however the 'drop of water', is a clear example of hyperbole and an idiom and a metaphor, in language context.
I'm still not seeing anything proven coming from Marvel. 🙁This is all opinion contradicting what Shooter stated on every first page of Secret Wars II.
I guess you feel this is hyperbole too then:
Jim states:
[B]Beyonder
"was like God before there was Genesis."Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)
.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...
.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "
"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered" [/B]
It's no different than a moment ago when I compared the universe to a bag of marbles compared to the new gods perceptions.
Originally posted by JuntaiI'm not trying to take anything away from the character, in fact, I agree his power and his view of reality probably was akin to that, I even gave an example of others with similar perceptions [though not power]... however the 'drop of water', is a clear example of hyperbole and an idiom and a metaphor, in language context.
It's no different than a moment ago when I compared the universe to a bag of marbles compared to the new gods perceptions.
Shooter stated that when Beyonder discovered the Marvel Universe,
it was like that scientist looking through his micro-scope
and discovering paramecium swimming in a drop of water.
No idiom there, just straight up talk.
The paramecium is the Earth,
the Marvel reality is the drop of water.
Again, I see what you're saying, (and you may be right concerning the idiom itself)
but not concerning what Shooter meant in Beyonder's case,
so I have to go with Jim Shooter's account about his own creation,
before I even dream of considering outside opinions.
As you just witnessed,
Shooter didn't use any idiom in his interview,
he spoke frankly,
and basically said the same thing the "idiom" was trying to get across.
This is why I know he meant it literally.
Whose to say that the Beyonders own home universe/multiverse etc etc is not just a drop in the ocean of another entity.....how can any character be credited with being supreme..when they need to experiment to understand concepts , are suprised in situations etc etc....doesn't sound all powerful and all knowing to me....it is intersting though to think about...makes my head hurt..
😛
Originally posted by Mr MasterLike I said, I'm not trying to hold anything against the character, he's proven his piece time and again. However the statement was an idiom/metaphor/hyperbole.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree that it's hyperbole,
even if it's supposedly a past idiom.Shooter stated that when Beyonder discovered the Marvel Universe,
it was like that scientist looking through his micro-scope
and discovering paramecium swimming in a drop of water.No idiom there, just straight up talk.
The paramecium is the Earth,
the Marvel reality is the drop of water.Again, I see what you're saying, (and you may be right concerning the idiom itself)
but not concerning what Shooter meant in Beyonder's case,
so I have to go with Jim Shooter's account about his own creation,
before I even dream of considering outside opinions.As you just witnessed,
,
Shooter didn't use any idiom in his interview,
[b]he spoke frankly
and basically said the same thing the "idiom" was trying to get across.This is why I know he meant it literally. [/B]
And Jim Shooters statement there is also a metaphor, clearly supported by the comparison "Like", though both certainly draw us contrast comparisons of exactly what they meant, the words are what they are, defined by the language.
Then again a lot of literature is written in hyperbole.
Originally posted by Juntai
Like I said, I'm not trying to hold anything against the character, he's proven his piece time and again. However the statement was an idiom/metaphor/hyperbole.And Jim Shooters statement there is also a metaphor, clearly supported by the comparison "Like", though both certainly draw us contrast comparisons of exactly what they meant, the words are what they are, defined by the language.
Then again a lot of literature is written in hyperbole.
Originally posted by Mr MasterI see what you're saying, but I disagree that it's hyperbole,
even if it's supposedly a past idiom.Shooter stated that when Beyonder discovered the Marvel Universe,
it was like that scientist looking through his micro-scope
and discovering paramecium swimming in a drop of water.No idiom there, just straight up talk.
The paramecium is the Earth,
the Marvel reality is the drop of water.Again, I see what you're saying, (and you may be right concerning the idiom itself)
but not concerning what Shooter meant in Beyonder's case,
so I have to go with Jim Shooter's account about his own creation,
before I even dream of considering outside opinions.As you just witnessed,
Shooter didn't use any idiom in his interview,
he spoke frankly,
and basically said the same thing the "idiom" was trying to get across.This is why I know he meant it literally.
Originally posted by lannfearWhose to say that the Beyonders own home universe/multiverse etc etc
is not just a drop in the ocean of another entity.....
Until then, let's stick to on panel evidence corroborated in official Marvel Handbooks,
and further confirmed by the writer/editor in-chief himself.
Originally posted by lannfearhow can any character be credited with being supreme..when they need to experiment to understand concepts , are suprised in situations etc etc....doesn't sound all powerful and all knowing to me....
He would not be able,
this is why He had Beyonder limiting himself through out the entire series.
You would know that if you read a single issue of the saga.
But here, I'll make it easy for ya. 🙂
"Something had gone wrong with my powers?
NO!
But I'm limiting them.
Trying to keep them in scale with your fascinating World"
..................................................................................
"He could erase the Universe with a thought,
and yet he limits himself"
..................................................................................
"I could simply will your cooperation,
but I'm trying to get by using less power,
I think it might be more satisfying"
..................................................................................
"If I'd never limited my powers,
I'd never have guessed how difficult something primitive like combat can be"
=========================================
Beyonder did this,
cause he wanted to be part of this Reality (Marvelverse) that contained microbes,
those microbes are everything and anything in the Marvelverse.
"He could have done it all instantly, so Omnipotent is he,
but he senses that his new neighbors are the type who take life at a slow pace,
so he takes his time,
he intends to be here for a long while,
and he wants to fit in."
=========================================
This is why I encourage cats to read comics before debating. 👆
Originally posted by fangirl101He kinda proved it when he lowered himself and destroyed the Celestials. Lt and the rest were afraid of him and that speaks volumes.
His GODLIKE Omnipotence. On panel by the writer. He was GOD LIKE. Hmm. There have been many characters called Omnipotent.
He wasnt some guy who claims omnipotence and then gets beat by a top tier. Huge difference there. he actually has feats that sa wait a minute he was freaking powerful. Name me 2 beings with on panel feats that surpass the preretcon beyonder if you would please.
