Darth Bane + Darth Zannah Vs. Team Sent To Arrest Palpatine

Originally posted by Taven
1. Anakin's potential is absolutely irrelevant in current terms. It's realised power that would determine how well he would be able to boost his reflexes and keep up with the speed of a combatant, and as far as realised power goes, PoD Bane has him beaten by a mile.

2. You're relying on flawed evidence; the movie, higher form of canon, quite clearly shows us that by the time Anakin had arrived, Sidious and Mace's fight was already over. The novel is secondary, and in the cases where it contradicts the movie, it loses. The idea that Anakin perceived Mace's speed in such a way is trumped by the fact that he wasn't even there to see anything.

Oh, and in regards to Bane's speed...

From RoT

They were at an impasse, none of their attacks able to connect with the one vulnerable part of Bane's anatomy. Then Johun caught a glimpse of white flesh peeking out from the seam between the Sith's armored gloves and the strange shells on his forearm. The gap was narrow, but it was large enough for a well-aimed blade to penetrate.

If Bane is moving faster than Johun can possibly see, how can be possibly notice this?

Yeah, what are you talking about?

"Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.

He didn't understand why people didn't just get out of his way. He didn't understand how the trillion beings who jammed Galactic City could go about their trivial business as though the universe hadn't changed. How could they think they counted for anything, compared with him?

How could they think they still mattered?

Their blind lives meant nothing now. None of them. Because ahead, on the vast cliff face of the Senate Office Building, one window spat lightning into the rain to echo the lightning of the storm outside-but this lightning was the color of clashing lightsabers.

Green fans, sheets of purple-And crimson flame.

He was too late.

The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red.

His repulsorlifts howled as he heeled the speeder up onto its side, skidding through wind-shear turbulence to bring it to a bobbing halt outside the window of Palpatine's private office. A blast of lightning hit the spire of 500 Republica, only a kilometer away, and its white burst flared off the window, flash-blinding him; he blinked furiously, slapping at his eyes in frustration.

The colorless glare inside his eyes faded slowly, bringing into focus a jumble of bodies on the floor of Palpatine's private office.

Bodies in Jedi robes.

On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lid-less eyes stared blindly at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way through wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horrific battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile.

Maybe he thought death was funny, too.

Anakin's own blade sang blue as it slashed through the window and he dived through the gap. He rolled to his feet among a litter of bodies and sprinted through a shattered door along the small private corridor and through a doorway that flashed and flared with energy-scatter.

Anakin skidded to a stop.

Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.

More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.

This was Vaapad's ultimate test.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind-the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once."

As can be clearly seen, the scene that jollyjim was referring to described Anakin as having arrived at the fight scene on foot and seen Mace and Sidious duelling, which the movie clearly disagrees with, and the movie being the higher form of canon, given that it denies the possibility of Anakin having witnessed the battle at all, would contradict the idea that he would have ever had trouble keeping up with Mace's speed in the first place.

As for "Bane's speed," your little quote doesn't prove anything. Nobody's ever claimed that Bane will simply step into superspeed mode and be entirely invisible to everyone throughout the entire duration of a battle. All I've [and anyone] has ever stated is that he has demonstrated the capacity for moving at such speeds. Obviously, if he's not being forced to move at such speeds, or certain actions prevent him from doing so, he might not necessarily demonstrate as much. For instance, with respect to the passage you just quoted, at what interval of the fight did it take place at? Were Bane's and the Jedi's sabers locked in place? Were the combatants momentarily pausing to reevaluate their options (in both cases Bane's entire arm would have been completely still)? I'm sorry, but it's already been established that Bane was capable of moving at such speeds when he was a Sith initiate; he's only going to be capable of better as of his current state by the end of Ro2. Does that mean he will be displaying that speed throughout every single second of the battle? No, not at all, because there's more to complex duels between master swordsmen than simply moving as quickly as you can; there will be actions that will limit the movement of a combatant, and there will be moments in a battle where a show of speed wouldn't be at all necessary. As I said, this proves nothing.

My error. Of course, there are other quotes referencing how many sabers Mace seems to wield.

As for "Bane's speed," your little quote doesn't prove anything. Nobody's ever claimed that Bane will simply step into superspeed mode and be entirely invisible to everyone throughout the entire duration of a battle.

All I've [and anyone] has ever stated is that he has demonstrated the capacity for moving at such speeds. Obviously, if he's not being forced to move at such speeds, or certain actions prevent him from doing so, he might not necessarily demonstrate as much.

For instance, with respect to the passage you just quoted, at what interval of the fight did it take place at? Were Bane's and the Jedi's sabers locked in place?

Were the combatants momentarily pausing to reevaluate their options (in both cases Bane's entire arm would have been completely still)?

I'm sorry, but it's already been established that Bane was capable of moving at such speeds when he was a Sith initiate; he's only going to be capable of better as of his current state by the end of Ro2.

Does that mean he will be displaying that speed throughout every single second of the battle?

No, not at all, because there's more to complex duels between master swordsmen than simply moving as quickly as you can; there will be actions that will limit the movement of a combatant, and there will be moments in a battle where a show of speed wouldn't be at all necessary. As I said, this proves nothing. [/B]

I somehow doubt your ability to rationalize this away. We have possible hyperbole vs. the reactions and viewpoints of third parties viewing Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
My error. Of course, there are other quotes referencing how many sabers Mace seems to wield.

None to quite the same degree, and really, in the future, you should verify what you might be "remembering" before claiming it as undeniable fact and snapping "dear heart" at people.

So, when he's fighting for his life, tha isn't a good time to do that?

Did you miss the entire point behind my post or something? Any fight, whether they be to the death, or training spars, can potentially involve intervals where a combatant might not necessarily have to be moving a specific part or the whole of his body at its maximum speeds or where certain actions might prevent as much. That this was the fight of his life as you claim wouldn't change that.

No, you've CLAIMED he can, which leaves non force sensitives and apprentices bewildered at it, which leaves you claiming he can move this fast.

Well it's what the novel itself claims.

However, in the fight of his life, we can see that Johun, a borderline worthless combatant is not only able to perceive him, but to the level where he can see the gaps upon Bane's orbalisks

That he was in the fight of his life (repeating it is quite uneccessary) doesn't mean that it necessarily won't involve those moments that wouldn't call for a certain show of speed, or that would even prevent them. Again, Bane could have positioned himself in between the Jedi and their sabers could have been locked together. A situation that would prevent any sort of movement in that region, period. That it was the fight of Bane's life wouldn't change that.

What pathetic evasion.

I'm not evading the point whatsoever. The exact action that was taking place during the passage in question has everything to do with your argument. You're claiming that the passage establishes that Bane is not capable of such speed, by virtue of the fact that Johun is capable of visually keeping up with him. Now if the action involved was one where a display of speed wouldn't be applicable or necessary, than clearly that Johun was capable of keeping up with it doesn't prove that his maximum level of speed isn't as good as I've already established.

Raskta is lunging all around him, Farfalla is striking at him on one side and Johun's on the side. How is Bane going to survive an instant of locking sabers?

By positioning himself between them and angling his lightsaber appropriately? Dooku does it with ease against Anakin and Obi-Wan and keeps the lock in place for a good second or two.

This is your conjecture and it needs proof.

Burden of proof fallacy. You made the claim that the passage denies that Bane is capable of moving at the speeds I've been claiming. It would be up to you to prove that, and that would require you taking into account that the exact action that was taking place at the time of the passage you provided may have been one that either didn't call for or prevented such a display of speed.

All it is described is that they are all striking at him

That was the general description for that region of the fight. It wasn't stating that they were all in the process of striking at him just as Johun noticed the gap in his armour.

Prove up. They are described in the passage as attacking him, all at an impasse.

I don't need to prove up. The burden of proof is fully on you; PoD already establishes Bane's unprecedented level of speed; common sense would dictate that with all things considered, it would be far greater by the Ro2 era. I don't need to gauge anything out of that passage; you're the only one who brought it up, and your assertion that the passage proves that Bane is incapable of such speed as I have been describing relies on the idea that Bane was utilising all of his speed through his arm and hand at the exact moment that Johun makes his observation. The burden of proof is on you to prove that, and you can't, meaning no point can be made out of the passage.

No, it is your conjecture and the book's hyperbole. When a third party's viewpoint is shown, it's different.

As I've already explained to you, the original PoD description is affirmed by third party viewpoint. The apprentices react in such a way that would demand the description be taken at face value.

He is fighting for his laugh and at an impasse.d Why would he not simply speedblitz Raskta and Farfalla at the start, then head to take out Johun and Sarro?

Nobody claimed that he's capable of speed blitzing just anybody, especially two notably powerful BMed Jedi. That he doesn't does not deny his earlier established level of speed.

How pathetic of you.
At one point, Zannah is able to briefly divert attention to SEE Bane fighting his opponents. Implies visibility.

At what interval was this? Was it under a situation that called and allowed him to maximise his speed? Even if that was the case, I never claimed that Bane can simply just move beyond the perception of any Force User; you're already aware of my thoughts on Zannah's level of power, that Zannah is capable of keeping up with him doesn't take anything away from what has already been established

If Bane is capable of such speeds, why does he not display them in the deadliest battle of his life?

Where is your proof that he does not display them? Elaboration is only given to parts of the battle, not the whole, and rarely from a visual perspective. Not to mention, he could be displaying such speeds, and they simply don't have the same effect on the likes of Zannah, BMed Raskta and BMed Farfalla as his lesser level of speed had had on Kas'im.

Farfalla's POV is from a good portion of the Jedi fight.

And little of that actually elaborates on his exact visual observations.

As Raskta and Bane fight, he is able to notice the orbalisks beneath Bane's clothing,

Refer to my points above. Are the combatants moving as it happens, or are they standing in place (a situation that wouldn't demand his body to be moving, but only his saber arm)?

he is able, when Bane is rushing at him, to see the handle of Bane's saber.

Was Bane being forced to utilise all of his speed in that single motion? As far as Bane was aware at the time, Farfalla still wasn't fully aware of the curved nature of Bane's blade, and was going to mistime his parry by the smallest of degrees. From his perspective, his attack wouldn't have needed to have been as fast or as strong as it could have been, simply because it was on course to slip past Farfalla's blade by the smallest of fractions and completely dismember his arm (as the passage states would have happened if Farfalla hadn't noticed it in time).

Bane is clearly meaning to end this battle fast, Raskta is off of him for the moment and he's bearing down on Farfalla viciously...yet, Farfalla is clearly able to SEE Bane coming, notice the handle of the saber he's using and react to it.

Refer to the above. Also, if you were to prove that Farfalla and the like were capable of keeping up with his maximum level of speed (which you haven't come close to), that wouldn't change previously established fact, it would simply make Farfalla, Raskta and Zannah that good.

Johun is able to see Bane charging for Worror during the lapse in the battle. Bane needs to end the fight quickly, as for all he knows, Sarro will kill Zannah shortly and be there to help the others. Why will he not employ his full speed to kill Worror and then the others? With the orbalisks feeding him adrenaline, it should be an easy task.
Johun is not only able to see this, but interfere in it.

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 280:

"Lying on the ground ten meters away, Johun watched in helpless horror as the Dark Lord's lightsaber leapt from the floor and flew back into his hand. Amazingly, his fingers wrapped themselves around the hilt and reignited the crimson blade, his injuries somehow healing almost instantly.

There was no longer anyone standing between Bane and the Ithorian; like Johun, Farfalla and Raskta had both been thrown clear. The Sith Lord raised his blade to end Worror's life, and Johun thrust out with the Force.

He knew he wasn't strong enough to penetrate Bane's defences, but the big man wasn't his target. Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air"

As can clearly be seen, Johun is never noted to have visually been able to see Bane as he rushed towards Worror to end his life.

Not to mention, as far as Bane was aware, everyone was momentarily incapacitated; he wasn't being forced to end Worror's life as quickly as he could, and could have arguably wanted to savour it.

I somehow doubt your ability to rationalize this away. We have possible hyperbole vs. the reactions and viewpoints of third parties viewing Bane.

1. It's not possible hyperbole; your vaunted third party reactions and viewpoints affirm the same description, given that the apprentices react to what happened in utter bewilderment, which would have only been the case if they had not in fact seen anything that had just happened, thus confirming that what had taken place remains exactly as the wording described it.

2. The only times the Jedi are shown to be able to visually see Bane throughout the entire duel, Bane can't be said to have been forced to utilise the full maximum potential of speed at his disposal, so its a moot point.

3. Even if they were able to visually keep up with Bane's maximum speeds, all that would do would establish that the Jedi under the BMed conditions were that good, it wouldn't deny previously established fact.

Originally posted by Taven
1. It's not possible hyperbole; your vaunted third party reactions and viewpoints affirm the same description, given that the apprentices react to what happened in utter bewilderment, which would have only been the case if they had not in fact seen anything that had just happened, thus confirming that what had taken place remains exactly as the wording described it.

3. Even if they were able to visually keep up with Bane's maximum speeds, all that would do would establish that the Jedi under the BMed conditions were that good, it wouldn't deny previously established fact.

1. They're directly stated to be perplexed as to what happened, not as to how it could have happened -- a clear indication of not having registered what had taken place.

2. It's described that everyone present reacted in such a way, which would include Kas'im, not just the apprentices.

3. That you would dismiss this as an unimpressive display of speed is as ridiculous as it gets, when the best that the PT era had to offer for instance weren't close to having the same effect on the non Force Sensitive viewers.

4. Nobody is shown to have observed him as he charged Worror, and I already provided an explanation to why he wouldn't have needed to strike as quickly as he could under the knowledge that Farfalla wasn't aware of the variance in angle that Bane's hooked saber attacked at. Not to mentioned, he could have just been sacrificing speed so as to maximise strength at any time throughout the duel. That is, after all, what his form focuses on.

5. That was more of a reference to Farfalla and Raskta, given that he only ever fought against Johun for the lesser part of the duel, not to mention this is all irrelevant anyway as you still haven't managed to make your case. Until you're able to prove that Bane was maximising fully on his speed at any interval where one of the Jedi are shown to visibly notice him (you'd have to prove that he wasn't sacrificing his speed for strength (read: Djem So), that he wasn't being prevented from utilising all of his speed, and that it was absolutely necessary), you have no case. As it stands, Bane's already proven what kinda speeds he could travel at when he was virtually a child, his current state is logically astronomically faster, and your worthless counter points haven't done a thing to change any of that.

Originally posted by Taven
1. They're directly stated to be perplexed as to what happened, not as to how it could have happened -- a clear indication of not having registered what had taken place.

And then...

There was no longer anyone standing between Bane and the Ithorian; like Johun, Farfalla and Raskta had both been thrown clear. The Sith Lord raised his blade to end Worror's life, and Johun thrust out with the Force.
[/Quote]
Bane goes for Worror after, clearly not faster than the eye can see. Unless Johun stopped watching in between the time Bane gets his saber and goes for Worror, of course.
In the space of time it takes for Bane to raise his saber and bring it down, Johun is able to see this and react and there is no reason at all Bane is taking his time. Throughout the fight he has demonstrated nothing but a desire to end it as swiftly as possible.

Not to mentioned, he could have just been sacrificing speed so as to maximise strength at any time throughout the duel. That is, after all, what his form focuses on.

5. That was more of a reference to Farfalla and Raskta, given that he only ever fought against Johun for the lesser part of the duel with, not to mention this is all irrelevant anyway as you still haven't managed to make your case.

Until you're able to prove that Bane was maximising fully on his speed at any interval where one of the Jedi are shown to visibly notice him (you'd have to prove that he wasn't sacrificing his speed for strength (read: Djem So),

that he wasn't being prevented from utilising all of his speed, and that it was absolutely necessary, at any one of the intervals),

you have no case. As it stands, Bane's already proven was kinda speeds he could travel at when he was virtually a child, his current state is logically astronomically faster, and your worthless counter points haven't done a thing to change any of that. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In that Bane moved very fast, taking down Sirak, who was believed invincible by all of them.
Of course they're shocked

"For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see."

It's made clear that their minds simply couldn't keep up with what had happened in the moment. It takes time to catch up, and even then it only registers as blurs.

Version I'm seeing says the apprentices are stunned.

As can clearly be seen, you're lying. It's outright stated that none of the spectators were aware of what had happened.

Kas']im is also able to catch himself in time to stop Bane, so there's that

Please, stop being purposefully deceitful. Kas'im only steps in after Bane's blood lust (what caused his massive burst of speed) had ended, Sirak lay battered and bruised on the floor, Bane had stopped moving, held his saber high, and purposefully delayed a killing stroke so that he would be stopped in time. He never intervened during Bane's burst of speed, like you're trying to claim.

Nonsense. I merely point out that this is extremely fast for an untrained eye.

Untrained eye? As can be seen, Kas'im was included in those who weren't able to register what took place as it happened, and the apprentices were all declared the most powerful of the Order not too long afterwards.

When viewed by trained eyes from their POVs, Bane is not moving so fast their minds need an instant to catch it. Johun is clearly able to seem him at several points.

Again, you're relying on isolated instances of which you do not know of what was taking place at the time. Was Bane being prevented from moving at his full capacity? Was he being forced to? Was he choosing to sacrifice his Force speed to further empower his strength? You don't know, and as such, cannot claim that these instances undeniably prove that he is not capable of moving beyond the level of speed that Johun was able to visually keep up with.

And frankly, the movies are a different story. You'll cease trying to turn it to that when the EU, Lucas and the Holocron all disagree with you. You have no stand in canon, Nebaris.

I don't need to have a stand in canon to observe the canon policy and dictate when a certain instance is clearly not true to a higher form of canon. Anybody can do that.

If they were slowed in the movies, but Lucas gave his blessing to faster speeds, then you have no leg to stand on.

Well you've claimed as much, but haven't proven up. Get to that.

Even less as, again, not once is Bane described as blinding anyone with his speed when he is fighting for his life.

Well he was described as appearing to wield twelve saber rather than one against the astronomically powerful Zannah when -- from his perspective -- she had been out to kill him. So there goes that idea, not to mention it would have never have to be elaborated on for it to be true. PoD already cements his level of speed.

What silliness. As far as Bane knows, Raskta could regain her footing and save Farfalla at any moment.

Could he have maybe - in the moment - suffered from the same quality as almost any other Sith out there: arrogance? It's like when Sidious knocks out Yoda with his lightning in RotS. Yoda could have been feigning weakness and come around at any moment (as he did (the coming round, not the feigning weakness)); does this mean that Palpatine lacked the speed in the [minute?] it took Yoda to rise back up to finish him off? Not at all.

As far as he knows, Zannah is dead

Oh right, because he couldn't possibly have taken a split second out to review her current status in the battle, and then decided his course of action. No, he doesn't even bother to look and just assumes she's dead, and runs off at Worror at full speed.

and two other Jedi are at nearly at his throat.

Again, perhaps he arrogantly presumed that they were temporarily incapacitated for the time being. A little careless given the circumstances, but something done in the moment.

To somehow not use his full speed and kill Farfalla instantly as he has been doing nothing but trying to slaughter the Jedi from the start....

Again, if he doesn't believes that he absolutely needs to, then why do it? It's an unnecessary draining of force reserves. Again, as far as he could have known (and rightly so, the omniscient narrator affirms as much), due to the variance in the angled attacks of his hooked lightsaber, he was way on course for his lightsaber to slip right past Farfalla's and lop his arm off. He didn't need to use all of the speed or strength at his disposal, simply because his lightsaber wasn't even on course to make contact with Farfallas, and Farfalla was on course to completely mistime his parry.

Or, alternatively, he could have been focusing on his strength rather than his speed in that particular instance. Either way, you cannot prove that he was undeniably putting all of his speed into the attack, and as such, cannot claim that Farfalla being able to visually see him detracts from his previously established level of speed.

sorry, Nebaris. You need to prove up.

No, I don't. You're the one trying to make a point out of all these isolated instances, the burden of proof is on you. All I have to prove is that your evidence doesn't necessarily point to your conclusion, and that's it.

In PoD, the narration tells us Bane paused to savor his victory with Kas'im and that nearly cost him his life. I somehow doubt he's ever going to make that mistake again.

What you doubt means little. Given that he hasn't displayed himself to be the most rational of people when he's fully immersed in his orbalisk powered rage, it's certainly possible that he simply got a little carried away in the moment, and wanted to fully enjoy his win over Worror. Then of course he now possesses something that he never had: the Orbalisk armour, which would only add to his arrogance and feelings of invincibility.

At his first rush, Farfalla sees Bane running to Worror and is able to react to briefly stun Bane. The second time?

Stop lying. He's never noted to have visually seen him change his route and head to Worror. I have the book right here, no such thing is said. And the same goes for the second time as well; Johun never visibly observes Bane charging at Worror, he simply deduces it (as anyone with half a brain would) and uses the Force to push Worror out of harm's way.

Bane goes for Worror after, clearly not faster than the eye can see.

His speed isn't elaborated on, so no, you have no logical basis in claiming that.

Unless Johun stopped watching in between the time Bane gets his saber and goes for Worror, of course.

What are you talking about? As can clearly be seen via the passage I provided, Johun simply concludes that Bane would be going for Worror now with nobody standing in between them, reaches out with the Force, and pushes Worror out of the way. He's never noted to have been able to visually keep up with the Sith Lord.

In the space of time it takes for Bane to raise his saber and bring it down, Johun is able to see this and react and there is no reason at all Bane is taking his time. Throughout the fight he has demonstrated nothing but a desire to end it as swiftly as possible.

1. Please, the passage I provided quite clearly never establishes that Johun is able to visibly see what Bane is doing; he simply concludes as much, and pushes Worror out of harm's way. Stop lying, it's right here:

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 280:

"Lying on the ground ten meters away, Johun watched in helpless horror as the Dark Lord's lightsaber leapt from the floor and flew back into his hand. Amazingly, his fingers wrapped themselves around the hilt and reignited the crimson blade, his injuries somehow healing almost instantly.

There was no longer anyone standing between Bane and the Ithorian; like Johun, Farfalla and Raskta had both been thrown clear. The Sith Lord raised his blade to end Worror's life, and Johun thrust out with the Force.

He knew he wasn't strong enough to penetrate Bane's defences, but the big man wasn't his target. Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air"

As can be seen, he is never noted to have visibly seen Bane's movements.

2. Again, no matter how rational he'd been throughout the fight, that doesn't deny the possibility that he got a little caught up in his own arrogance in the moment. I mean he'd been b1tch slapping the Jedi around throughout the battle with his Force Powers; he unleashes a pain enhanced especially potent omnidirectional attack, looks around and sees them all on the ground, seemingly incapacitated, sees Sarro still busy fighting Zannah, and it's not crazy that he thought he'd have a little time to savour his victory and enjoy his killing of the Battle Meditation Master.

How silly. Prove up.

I don't need to. You're the one using these isolated instances to try and establish something about Bane's speed; all I need to do is prove that the evidence doesn't necessarily point to your conclusion.

Bane's strength on its own with the orbalisks is enough to outmuscle any of the others here without necessity for orbalisks. Bane's speed needs to be his advantage against multiple enemies.

So.. what you're saying is that because Bane's stronger than any of the other Jedi here by virtue of the orbalisks and his natural physical strength (completely unsupported by the way), using the Force to further empower his strength is completely unnecessary? Yeah, I'm not really seeing what you're getting at; even if he already possessed the advantage in the area, adding to the advantage will only add to his overall deadliness.

Why would he sacrifice speed when he's already got insane strength and needs to kill his opponents fast as possible?

When you want to do something as quickly as possible, you take efficiency into account, not purely the quickest option. It's like how Bane envisioned the Sith taking down the Jedi; the BoD's attempt certainly used more "speed" at their disposal; if they were to succeed, they would have done it in some years; having the Ro2 Sith on their asses for a millennium however, clearly sacrificed some amount of haste in order for a greater plan to pave way. Now, in both cases, Bane certainly wanted to achieve his goal as quickly as he could, but he realised that, in the bigger picture, a long term plan would help him achieve his goal quicker than a short term plan would. Just the same here: perhaps Bane believed that, from the bigger picture, empowering his strength to the max rather than his speed (what Djem So's essentially designed for) would be the most efficient method in taking down the JedI.

My case is that at least three combatants were able to physically see Bane. Johun's time in the duel is irrelevant...he is shown to see Bane twice. Once when he is dueling him and once when Bane rushes to kill Worror.
In the latter case, he is able to react before Bane can kill Worror.

Again, I'm gonna make this absolutely clear to you. Everytime one of the combatants are noted to visually observe Bane's movements, for that to detract from his previously established mas capacity for speed, you would have to prove that:

a) That he was being forced to act as efficiently as he could.

b) That he was being allowed to do so.

c) That he wasn't sacrificing his speed for his strength (again, what his form is specialised at).

d) That whoever is noted to visible see his movements simply isn't that good, and that it undeniably detracts from Bane, and doesn't add to whoever it is who observes him.

No, my dear. It is not my job to prove a negative.

This whole "it's not up to me to prove a negative" illogic has always baffles the mind. You make a claim, positive or negative (which are almost always interchangeable depending on how you word things for the record), it's on you to prove up.

This is essentially your argument: people visually observe Bane moving at isolated instances, ergo, he’s not as quick as you claim.

For your premise to lead to your conclusion, you would need to prove all of the below:

a) That he was being forced to act as efficiently as he could.

b) That he was being allowed to do so.

c) That he wasn't sacrificing his speed for his strength (again, what his form is specialised at).

d) That whoever is noted to visible see his movements simply isn't that good, and that it undeniably detracts from Bane, and doesn't add to whoever it is who observes him.

This is your claim, and you prove it.

Refer to the above. I’m just pointing out how your premise doesn’t necessarily lead to your conclusion. I don’t need to undeniably prove that it doesn’t.

It is illogical at best that Bane, with all his natural strength, always shown to combine great speed according to you, with his natural, augmented strength, is sacrificing anything.

Refer to the above. Whether he already possesses the advantage there or not, adding to it only adds to his overall deadliness by extension.

Such a thing would be felt and noted in the narration and it is not.

No, not necessarily at all.

There is no reason at all that Bane will not use full speed when he is trying to kill the enemy or risk dying and doom the Sith forever

When you want to do something as quickly as possible, you take efficiency into account, not purely the quickest option. It's like how Bane envisioned the Sith taking down the Jedi; the BoD's attempt certainly used more "speed" at their disposal; if they were to succeed, they would have done it in some years; having the Ro2 Sith on their asses for a millennium however, clearly sacrificed some amount of haste in order for a greater plan to pave way. Now, in both cases, Bane certainly wanted to achieve his goal as quickly as he could, but he realised that, in the bigger picture, a long term plan would help him achieve his goal quicker than a short term plan would. Just the same here: perhaps Bane believed that, from the bigger picture, empowering his strength to the max rather than his speed (what Djem So's essentially designed for) would be the most efficient method in taking down the Jedi.

Prove up. At what point does it say that they were preventing Bane from using all his speed?

Again, a great big burden of proof fallacy.

I detect desperation from you. Nothing changes that when seen through the eyes of third parties, Bane is nowhere near as fast as you claim in his best state.
Considering his best speed feat is to a bunch of apprentices and not experienced Jedi like Farfalla, it's you who needs to prove up.

All of this has been responded to. You would have to prove all of what I listed for your premise to follow on to your conclusion, and it was every single spectator that was incapable of visually seeing what had happened in the moment (requiring time for their minds to catch, only then for it to register as a blur), not just for the apprentices.

Originally posted by Taven
"For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see."

It's made clear that their minds simply couldn't keep up with what had happened in the moment. It takes time to catch up, and even then it only registers as blurs.

As can clearly be seen, you're lying. It's outright stated that none of the [b]spectators were aware of what had happened.

Please, stop being purposefully deceitful. Kas'im only steps in after Bane's blood lust (what caused his massive burst of speed) had ended, Sirak lay battered and bruised on the floor, Bane had stopped moving, held his saber high, and purposefully delayed a killing stroke so that he would be stopped in time. He never intervened during Bane's burst of speed, like you're trying to claim.

Untrained eye? As can be seen, Kas'im was included in those who weren't able to register what took place as it happened, and the apprentices were all declared the most powerful of the Order not too long afterwards.

Again, you're relying on isolated instances of which you do not know of what was taking place at the time. Was Bane being prevented from moving at his full capacity? Was he being forced to? Was he choosing to sacrifice his Force speed to further empower his strength? You don't know, and as such, cannot claim that these instances undeniably prove that he is not capable of moving beyond the level of speed that Johun was able to visually keep up with.

I don't need to have a stand in canon to observe the canon policy and dictate when a certain instance is clearly not true to a higher form of canon. Anybody can do that.

Well you've claimed as much, but haven't proven up. Get to that.

Well he was described as appearing to wield twelve saber rather than one against the astronomically powerful Zannah when -- from his perspective -- she had been out to kill him. So there goes that idea, not to mention it would have never have to be elaborated on for it to be true. PoD already cements his level of speed.

Could he have maybe - in the moment - suffered from the same quality as almost any other Sith out there: arrogance? It's like when Sidious knocks out Yoda with his lightning in RotS. Yoda could have been feigning weakness and come around at any moment (as he did (the coming round, not the feigning weakness)); does this mean that Palpatine lacked the speed in the [minute?] it took Yoda to rise back up to finish him off? Not at all.

Oh right, because he couldn't possibly have taken a split second out to review her current status in the battle, and then decided his course of action. No, he doesn't even bother to look and just assumes she's dead, and runs off at Worror at full speed.

Again, perhaps he arrogantly presumed that they were temporarily incapacitated for the time being. A little careless given the circumstances, but something done in the moment.

Again, if he doesn't believes that he absolutely needs to, then why do it?

It's an unnecessary draining of force reserves.

Again, as far as he could have known (and rightly so, the omniscient narrator affirms as much), due to the variance in the angled attacks of his hooked lightsaber, he was way on course for his lightsaber to slip right past Farfalla's and lop his arm off.

He didn't need to use all of the speed or strength at his disposal, simply because his lightsaber wasn't even on course to make contact with Farfallas, and Farfalla was on course to completely mistime his parry.

Or, alternatively, he could have been focusing on his strength rather than his speed in that particular instance.

Either way, you cannot prove that he was undeniably putting all of his speed into the attack, and as such, cannot claim that Farfalla being able to visually see him detracts from his previously established level of speed.

No, I don't. You're the one trying to make a point out of all these isolated instances, the burden of proof is on you.

All I have to prove is that your evidence doesn't necessarily point to your conclusion, and that's it.

What you doubt means little. Given that he hasn't displayed himself to be the most rational of people when he's fully immersed in his orbalisk powered rage, it's certainly possible that he simply got a little carried away in the moment, and wanted to fully enjoy his win over Worror.

Then of course he now possesses something that he never had: the Orbalisk armour, which would only add to his arrogance and feelings of invincibility.

Stop lying. He's never noted to have visually seen him change his route and head to Worror.

I have the book right here, no such thing is said.

And the same goes for the second time as well; Johun never visibly observes Bane charging at Worror, he simply deduces it (as anyone with half a brain would) and uses the Force to push Worror out of harm's way.

His speed isn't elaborated on, so no, you have no logical basis in claiming that.

What are you talking about? As can clearly be seen via the passage I provided, Johun simply concludes that Bane would be going for Worror now with nobody standing in between them, reaches out with the Force, and pushes Worror out of the way. He's never noted to have been able to visually keep up with the Sith Lord.

1. Please, the passage I provided quite clearly never establishes that Johun is able to visibly see what Bane is doing; he simply concludes as much, and pushes Worror out of harm's way. Stop lying, it's right here:

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 280:

"Lying on the ground ten meters away, Johun watched in helpless horror as the Dark Lord's lightsaber leapt from the floor and flew back into his hand. Amazingly, his fingers wrapped themselves around the hilt and reignited the crimson blade, his injuries somehow healing almost instantly.

There was no longer anyone standing between Bane and the Ithorian; like Johun, Farfalla and Raskta had both been thrown clear. The Sith Lord raised his blade to end Worror's life, and Johun thrust out with the Force.

He knew he wasn't strong enough to penetrate Bane's defences, but the big man wasn't his target. Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air"

As can be seen, he is never noted to have visibly seen Bane's movements.

2. Again, no matter how rational he'd been throughout the fight, that doesn't deny the possibility that he got a little caught up in his own arrogance in the moment.

I mean he'd been b1tch slapping the Jedi around throughout the battle with his Force Powers; he unleashes a pain enhanced especially potent omnidirectional attack, looks around and sees them all on the ground, seemingly incapacitated, sees Sarro still busy fighting Zannah,

and it's not crazy that he thought he'd have a little time to savour his victory and enjoy his killing of the Battle Meditation Master.

I don't need to. You're the one using these isolated instances to try and establish something about Bane's speed; all I need to do is prove that the evidence doesn't necessarily point to your conclusion. [/B]

Watching you flail is FUN, though.

Originally posted by Taven
So.. what you're saying is that because Bane's stronger than any of the other Jedi here by virtue of the orbalisks and his natural physical strength (completely unsupported by the way), using the Force to further empower his strength is completely unnecessary? Yeah, I'm not really seeing what you're getting at; even if he already possessed the advantage in the area, adding to the advantage will only add to his overall deadliness.

b) That he was being allowed to do so.

c) That he wasn't sacrificing his speed for his strength (again, what his form is specialised at).

d) That whoever is noted to visible see his movements simply isn't that good, and that it undeniably detracts from Bane, and doesn't add to whoever it is who observes him.

This whole "it's not up to me to prove a negative" illogic has always baffles the mind. You make a claim, positive or negative (which are almost always interchangeable depending on how you word things for the record), it's on you to prove up.

This is essentially your argument: people visually observe Bane moving at isolated instances, ergo, he’s not as quick as you claim.

For your premise to lead to your conclusion, you would need to prove all of the below:

a) That he was being forced to act as efficiently as he could.

b) That he was being allowed to do so.

d) That whoever is noted to visible see his movements simply isn't that good, and that it undeniably detracts from Bane, and doesn't add to whoever it is who observes him.

Refer to the above. I’m just pointing out how your premise doesn’t necessarily lead to your conclusion. I don’t need to undeniably prove that it doesn’t.

Refer to the above. Whether he already possesses the advantage there or not, adding to it only adds to his overall deadliness by extension.

No, not necessarily at all.

When you want to do something as quickly as possible, you take efficiency into account, not purely the quickest option. It's like how Bane envisioned the Sith taking down the Jedi; the BoD's attempt certainly used more "speed" at their disposal; if they were to succeed, they would have done it in some years; having the Ro2 Sith on their asses for a millennium however, clearly sacrificed some amount of haste in order for a greater plan to pave way. Now, in both cases, Bane certainly wanted to achieve his goal as quickly as he could, but he realised that, in the bigger picture, a long term plan would help him achieve his goal quicker than a short term plan would. Just the same here: perhaps Bane believed that, from the bigger picture, empowering his strength to the max rather than his speed (what Djem So's essentially designed for) would be the most efficient method in taking down the Jedi.

Again, a great big burden of proof fallacy.

All of this has been responded to. You would have to prove all of what I listed for your premise to follow on to your conclusion, and it was every single spectator that was incapable of visually seeing what had happened in the moment (requiring time for their minds to catch, only then for it to register as a blur), not just for the apprentices. [/B]

If anyone needs proof that Bane is capable of moving at the speeds that tavern has pointed out, just look at this qoute:

'Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see'-p.g.275

Now assuming that everyone can agree that Bane can at least move as fast as BM'ed Raska (he'd need to to be able to actually stalemate her) this proves that Bane is capable of duelling at invisible speeds or at least pretty close to them.

She's also capable of intercepting Bane's lightning which break's through a force-shield (Which presumably isn't that big) meaning that she'd have to move faster than lightning.

Exodus, Dooku and Anakin- two highly prodigious swordsman, but not exactly known for incredible speeds- were quoted in the RotS novel to be:

"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see..."

Really. Raskta's dueling speed is fast, but far from unique or exceptional.

Bane is quick. So is Raskta- this much is undeniable. But his speeds are matched (and sometimes exceeded) by the PT's greats, namely Sidious, Yoda, and Mace.

Hell, Johun was noted to have moved his blade "faster than the eye could see" when he was fighting those mercenaries, one of whom proceeded to royally kick his ass with bladed brass knuckles. If that doesn't take away all meaning, I don't know what does.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Exodus, Dooku and Anakin- two highly prodigious swordsman, but not exactly known for incredible speeds-

Fastest he had ever "killed" actually...

They're fast. But they're not top-tier levels of speed. You wanna see top-tier speed? See Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and NJO Luke. Anakin and Dooku are fast- very fast- but they don't compare.

Mace can't keep up with Sidious on his own accord - he needs Vaapad for that. Yoda would probably waste him in a fight, as of course would Luke. However, his showings in Shatterpoint against Kar Vastor, in Labyrinth of Evil against Grievous, in Obsession against Dooku, and in Revenge of the Sith when he actually manages to survive long enough to immerse himself in Vaapad and really cut loose, put him, in my opinion, a notch above Dooku, and especially Anakin. If I had to group them into tiers based on sheer attainable speed, including some prominent NJO characters:

Tier 1:
- Luke
- Sidious
- Yoda

Tier 2:
- Mace
- Jacen

Tier 3:
- Dooku
- Anakin
- Kyle
- Jaina

Yeah.