Darth Bane + Darth Zannah Vs. Team Sent To Arrest Palpatine

Originally posted by Taven
Which the room where Bane and Zannah fought the Jedi strike team would qualify as.

Perhaps if "the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at once" = "a dozen strikes a second," rather than closer to an "instant" (which should have been evident by the "at once"😉, than yes, you'd be absolutely correct.

Go away, Nebaris. Your credibility here is dead. You're nothing more than a whiny, bratty, lying fool who serves no purpose but to annoy us and suck Bane's orbalisk encrusted dick. You're not wanted.

In fact, prove to me all the description of Bane's speeds aren't hyperbole and show me an image-video game, movie, comic, something VISUAL- of him moving. You dismiss movie character's speeds all the time. Why shouldn't I dismiss Bane's as nothing more than hyperbole by the same lines? You've got no evidence but your deluded little mind.

LOL, Nebaris. You dismiss Luke's quote of seemingly wielding 20 sabers at once (that's above Bane, actually) as hyperbole, saying that it only comes from the eyes of Jacen Solo, based off of an unknown factor, but you use a very similar quote issued about Bane as hard evidence. Double standards are fun!

I don't like the assertion that Palpatine "took [the Jedi Masters] off guard". Were they prepared to fight someone of his caliber? Obviously not, but Nebaris is right in that they were armed with the knowledge that he was a Sith Lord, ignited all of their lightsabers first, and it were in obvious combat stance. It's not like he caught them with their pants down.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lie. It was a big room in Belia Darzu's castle, not the cramped quarters of Palpatine's office

Well I checked Ro2, and [for once] you're correct. That being said, they could choose to stay farther apart and make it all the easier for Bane or Zannah to take them off one by one, or they could stay just as close as they had with Palpatine and suffer the same disadvantages of maneuverability. Either scenario works against them.

And he still took them off guard thanks to environment and speed.

Lightsnake: Taken totally by surprise,

The Man: They were all in a battle stance, with their lightsabers ready, waiting for Sidious to make his move. Can you even be any better prepared than that?

Instead of an update on your stance, a concession would have been fine.

Bane doesn't have those advantages with Mace

Given that Bane, a year into his training, before he had yet to develop in power and refine his abilities for a decade, before he had ever understood the true nature of the dark side and began tapping into his full potential, and before receiving the benefits of the Orbalisk armour (substantial amounts of darkside energies and adrenaline), was capable of moving so quickly that he was virtually invisible to the eyes of Kas'im (who was renowned for his reflexes) and numerous other Force Users present, he's clearly miles beyond any PT Force User in the department. That's a speed right there that Yoda, the fastest Force User we come across in the PT era, doesn't even come close to; he barely appears as a blur to the non Force Sensitive eyes of the viewers, and Bane had that beaten by a mile when he was a child in comparison to his later self.

So yeah, get over it. Beings like Bane absolutely curbstomp anyone from the movie in speed, and ability, and it's something you need to get over.

Yawwwwn.
When he can appear invisible to Mace's caliber, we'll talk since he wasn't invisible to Raskta or Farfalla.

1. We're not given any indication as to whether or not Farfalla or Raskta could visually see him; if you're assuming that based on their ability to keep up with him, then it's what you'd call a retarded assumption given that Jedi rely on their precog and Force Sense in combat and not their natural senses.

2. Even if they could, would that make Bane's speed lower, or their reaction timing better?

3. Kas'im, who is a calibre higher than that of Mace Windu and arguably Yoda, was completely unable to visually make out Bane's movements. So there's someone.

4. He doesn't have to appear invisible to Mace to be able to take out the other Jedi before he can react. Sidious was able to, and as established, Sidious is leagues below Bane in speed.

Mace, by contrast, leaves Force users in the dust with speed routinely. Hyperbole if your friend, Nebaris.

Post one example, and please, try to make sense.

Given descriptions of Palpatine's speed, he outclasses Bane, who has nothing more than hyperbolic book descriptions. Sorry

It's not a hyperbolic book description when it's spelt out exactly how fast Bane was capable of moving to the point where those around him are left bewildered as to what happened. Not only is his speed described to go way beyond what they were capable of perceiving, they're described as left completely perplexed at what happened. It's both initial description as well as character observations that confirm that Bane was moving at those speeds, and that the description was not simply hyperbole.

Lie. The office is not the same as Tython. As I pointed out to your toady, Raskta was able to stop Bane's charge.

My toady? Ok that was just weird, and Raskta was only capable of stopping his initial charge; it was said however that she would have been crushed if she didn't then proceed to evade him, which she was only capable of doing at the last possible instance by virtue of her being powered by Battle Meditation.

You've had your ass kicked here numerous times.

Right.

Zannah 'alone' is capable of taking on all four of these? Your fanboyism and trolling are hilarious

Zannah alone is declared to possess potential surpassing that of Darth Bane, an instinctive link to the darkside that rivals his, and has been studying Sith Magic for ten years (which is more time than can be said for PoD Bane, and from a greater knowledge base). She's clearly a good notch above PoD Bane in power, and somewhere between his PoD and Ro2 incarnations in ability. Which puts her at a titanic level, and a level that would enable her to succeed where the low grade street level Sidious barely failed.

And Mace, capable of defeating with ease someone capable of sixteen strikes a second in sheer saber combat>That no problem.

With ease? Begs for proof, as well as another Fallacy of Division, not to mention that sixteen strikes a second really isn't impressive one bit where combatants like Bane are concerned. He moved his entire body at speeds that completely eclipse the very best that Grievous' era has to offer when he was basically a youngling. Bane > the PT by a mile. He could likely solo their entire council.

Go away, Nebaris. Your credibility here is dead. You're nothing more than a whiny, bratty, lying fool who serves no purpose but to annoy us and suck Bane's orbalisk encrusted dick. You're not wanted.

...OK

In fact, prove to me all the description of Bane's speeds aren't hyperbole

I already have. If all that was said was that Bane moved completely beyond what they could see, than you may have a point. Sadly for you, on top of that, those presents are described as left having no idea what had actually happened. Not only the descriptions state as much, but the characters are left pondering over it, indicating that they hadn't been able to see any of what had happened. It's not hyperbolic.

and show me an image-video game, movie, comic, something VISUAL- of him moving.

Quit your random blabbering. The descriptions make it conclusive, we don't need to see him moving at those speeds for the novel to stand alone as a credible and canon source.

You dismiss movie character's speeds all the time.

Because they clearly don't act true to the ultimate form of canon: the movies, where the CGI done Yoda himself isn't shown to be moving at anywhere near invisible speeds. Any novel that disagrees is secondary and thus not a true or consistent display of the speed that these characters are capable of moving at.

Why shouldn't I dismiss Bane's as nothing more than hyperbole by the same lines?

Because you have no case whatsoever. Bane's not only stated directly to move as quickly as he does, the characters are described as being left thinking over what happened, which would affirm the credibility of the narration.

Originally posted by Taven
Well I checked Ro2, and [for once] you're correct. That being said, they could choose to stay farther apart and make it all the easier for Bane or Zannah to take them off one by one, or they could stay just as close as they had with Palpatine and suffer the same disadvantages of maneuverability. Either scenario works against them.

[b]Lightsnake: Taken totally by surprise,

The Man: They were all in a battle stance, with their lightsabers ready, waiting for Sidious to make his move. Can you even be any better prepared than that?

Instead of an update on your stance, a concession would have been fine.

Given that Bane, a year into his training, before he had yet to develop in power and refine his abilities for a decade, before he had ever understood the true nature of the dark side and began tapping into his full potential, and before receiving the benefits of the Orbalisk armour (substantial amounts of darkside energies and adrenaline), was capable of moving so quickly that he was virtually invisible to the eyes of Kas'im (who was renowned for his reflexes) and numerous other Force Users present, he's clearly miles beyond any PT Force User in the department.

That's a speed right there that Yoda, the fastest Force User we come across in the PT era, doesn't even come close to; he barely appears as a blur to the non Force Sensitive eyes of the viewers, and Bane had that beaten by a mile when he was a child in comparison to his later self.

So yeah, get over it. Beings like Bane absolutely curbstomp anyone from the movie in speed, and ability, and it's something you need to get over.

1. We're not given any indication as to whether or not Farfalla or Raskta could visually see him;

if you're assuming that based on their ability to keep up with him, then it's what you'd call a retarded assumption given that Jedi rely on their precog and Force Sense in combat and not their natural senses.

2. Even if they could, would that make Bane's speed lower, or their reaction timing better?

3. Kas'im, who is a calibre higher than that of Mace Windu and arguably Yoda, was completely unable to visually make out Bane's movements. So there's someone.

4. He doesn't have to appear invisible to Mace to be able to take out the other Jedi before he can react. Sidious was able to, and as established, Sidious is leagues below Bane in speed.

Post one example, and please, try to make sense.

It's not a hyperbolic book description when it's spelt out exactly how fast Bane was capable of moving to the point where those around him are left bewildered as to what happened.

Not only is his speed described to go way beyond what they were capable of perceiving, they're described as left completely perplexed at what happened. It's both initial description as well as character observations that confirm that Bane was moving at those speeds, and that the description was not simply hyperbole.

My toady? Ok that was just weird, and Raskta was only capable of stopping his initial charge; it was said however that she would have been crushed if she didn't then proceed to evade him, which she was only capable of doing at the last possible instance by virtue of her being powered by Battle Meditation.

Right.

Zannah alone is declared to possess potential surpassing that of Darth Bane, an instinctive link to the darkside that rivals his, and has been studying Sith Magic for ten years (which is more time than can be said for PoD Bane, and from a greater knowledge base). She's clearly a good notch above PoD Bane in power, and somewhere between his PoD and Ro2 incarnations in ability.

Which puts her at a titanic level, and a level that would enable her to succeed where the low grade street level Sidious barely failed.

With ease? Begs for proof, as well as another Fallacy of Division, not to mention that sixteen strikes a second really isn't impressive one bit where combatants like Bane are concerned.

He moved his entire body at speeds that completely eclipse the very best that Grievous' era has to offer when he was basically a youngling. Bane > the PT by a mile. He could likely solo their entire council.

I already have. If all that was said was that Bane moved completely beyond what they could see, than you may have a point.
Sadly for you, on top of that, those presents are described as left having no idea what had actually happened.

Not only the descriptions state as much, but the characters are left pondering over it, indicating that they hadn't been able to see any of what had happened. It's not hyperbolic.

Quit your random blabbering. The descriptions make it conclusive, we don't need to see him moving at those speeds for the novel to stand alone as a credible and canon source.

Because they clearly don't act true to the ultimate form of canon: the movies, where the CGI done Yoda himself isn't shown to be moving at anywhere near invisible speeds.

Any novel that disagrees is secondary and thus not a true or consistent display of the speed that these characters are capable of moving at.

Because you have no case whatsoever. Bane's not only stated directly to move as quickly as he does, the characters are described as being left thinking over what happened, which would affirm the credibility of the narration. [/B]

Respond to what is relevant, LS. When it comes to the rest, demand proof. When he doesn't deliver, just leave it at that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or, y'know, bane does the same thing he did in Ro2 and it proceeds from there.

Y'know, larger room and all, but a larger distance from the Sith

Which would -- as I just said -- add to the ease with which Bane would be able to take them down, one by one. Either scenario presents drawbacks that either Zannah or Bane would be able to exploit with ease.

Considering one of them expect Palpatine to be as fast or good as that, your point is moot

Your original assertion was that they were taken "totally" by surprise, which would encompass everything from how prepared they were to how complacent they may have been. Again, a concession will be fine.

As opposed to Dooku and Yoda, who routinely do this to trained Force Users. Or Mace, too! Or Palpatine.

1. Bane did it with only a year's worth of training under his belt, with no considerably source of knowledge and little understanding of the darkside, in an era where the large numbers of Sith had been weakening the dark side. He later on grows in ability for over ten years under a far greater source of knowledge and understanding of the darkside, obtains the orbalisk armour which pumps his body up with substantial levels of darkside energies and adrenaline, and in an era where the darkside was growing in strength due to the fact that it was focused solely in a few individuals. Even if those you mentioned had been able to match such a display (they haven't), that only accounts for an early PoD Bane, which pails in comparison to his Ro2 self.

2. Again, simply claiming that they have doesn't make it so. Prove up.

3. Even if they had, it clearly doesn't hold true to the movie's version of events, and as such is secondary and worthless.

And nice way to throw out hyperbole considering a readied Kas'im kicked Bane's ass in saber combat.

When Kas'im was fighting in an art of saber combat with which he had mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat to high degrees -- where it was described that he had millions of moves and sequences at his disposal -- all of which Bane was completely unfamiliar with. And funny how he was apparently getting his ass kicked, yet was still able to remain in control of the fight to the point that he ws capable of directing it throughout the temple at his leisure. Sure, he was losing, and he acknowledged as much, but he was hardly getting dominated.

Also, your reasoning is working under the logic that a Force User can't possibly keep up with another if he's not capable of visually seeing him, which is a sever misunderstanding of what enables Jedi and Sith to keep up with eachother.

Guess what? To the Jedi there, BANE WAS SEEN VISIBLY MOVING! In other words, your theory is full of shit

Again, prove up or go home. You claiming so doesn't make it so.

Mace alone in Shatterpoint is described as moving so fast he's invisible.

Which Bane outclasses (given that he pulls off the same from the perspective of powerful Force Users) when he was - for all intents and purposes -- a toddler.

Not to mention, you're using evidence that doesn't stay true to the movie's higher level of credibility, and as such is worthless.

Yoda is able to move faster than the eyes of...Shaak TI, Mace and Depa can see. Oh, and Dooku, too. Sorry, brat.

Prove up. Where does he display this.

Nebaris: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!
Oh, shut up. Leland Chee even confirmed the Force User speed in the EU remains valid for movie characters and you refuse to accept it because your pwecious Baney would be reduced.

Even if Leland Chee did state as much (which you haven‘t provided proof for), then his word loses its value given that he’s contradicting the very canon policy he himself set down that Lucas also happened to personally approve.

Sorry, Neb. Doesn't work like that. Unless you can prove Bane's so called speed isn't just as hyperbole as you dismiss everything else, you're full of it.

Already done, though I’m not surprised you still don’t get it. It’s clearly not hyperbole because the Force Users around him are described as reacting in a way that they only would under the condition that the passage described the event exactly as it happened. For instance, if all that was said was that Bane moved so much faster than what their eyes could detect, you might have a case with labelling it hyperbole. However, given the fact that the Force Users are left completely perplexed as to what had happened -- which would only be the case if they hadn’t actually seen any of what had happened (otherwise they wouldn‘t have been so bewildered, as they would have been able to in part see what was happening) -- it’s conclusive that character observations affirm the fact that the passage describes what was happening exactly as it happened.

Except theyr eact to him and Farfalla's POV notes his movements. Oops!

Again, claiming as much doesn’t make it the case. Prove up.

But Bane's speed is supposed to be the deciding factor.
Changing arguments?

Strawman. I was simply substantiating the now established fact that Bane was capable of completely outclassing the PT greats in speed at the very beginning of his career, by pointing out that the non-Force Sensitive eyes of the viewers are perfectly capable of detecting the speeds of the movie characters, yet powerful trained Force Users on the other hand are not with respect to an early Darth Bane.

Kills your theory and confirms mine that Karpyshyn's bad writing it naught by the hyperbole you dismiss everything you don't like as.

Please, aside from the fact that his characterisation of Bane serves as the greatest character development that the entire mythos has to offer by about a mile (with Bane‘s path to the dark side actually being realistic and relatable), or the fact that his Bane duology has received pretty much unanimous praise, he’s the only author who’s writing actually appeals to both the hardcore Star wars fans, and the not so hardcore Star Wars fans. You’ll find that every other Star Wars author out there will fill their stories with overly long and tedious descriptions about the scenery, or the technology, or the customs of a particular race, or the dynamics of the setting etc. that truthfully will only ever appeal to the serious fans out there. Any casual reader would be completely bored by it. The Bane duology, on the other hand, is interesting and exciting from the get go, with the emphasis placed almost fully on the plot and that alone rather than the general Star Wars setting, giving the casual reader a fresh and easy to get into addition to the Expanded Universe, and the serious reader a highly enjoyable and significant addition to the mythos. The idea that these other authors are somehow on a level above purely because their stories are centered around the characters from the movies is as ridiculous as it gets.

And no, as I've established, it's not hyperbole.

And still kicked his ass.

I never claimed that being able to move faster than what your opponent can perceive automatically places you above them, in overall ability or speed. The point is that if his speed has such a far greater effect on Force Users than that the PT Jedi has on us Non-Force Sensitive viewers when he’s a mere initiate, it’s absolutely clear that the disparity in speed between Bane’s later self and the same movie characters is astronomical.

And Mace displays speed greater than Kas'im, too, point?

Prove up or go home. In PoD, from the perspective of the Force Sensitive Bane, it seemed as if Kas’im wielded six lightsabers rather than just two. Yet another display of speed that the Bane duology offers that puts to shame what the best of the PT era were capable of.

Established...by you.

It being established makes who established it irrelevant.

As shown numerous times, he's faster.

Not even secondary evidence has him beating what Bane did when he was essentially a newbie. Primary evidence has him failing miserably. Love to see him even try and compete with a Ro2 Bane.

Such as when he's able to be so fast to MAUL, he's only a dark and red blur

Why should Maul get the Caps Lock treatment? Aside from being extremely technically skilled with a lightsaber, and physically pushed to the peak, he’s displayed as being a pretty average Force User. Certainly not ever shown to even be close to the same Kas’im who can block attacks that tear through temples. And even then, Sidious was still somewhat visible, and as I’ve already said, in secondary material that the movie trumps.

Yawn. Numerous characters have noted Mace's speed in awe quite a few times in Stover's writing alone.

That… doesn’t even come close to qualifying as an “example.”

No, it's a flowery description to say 'Bane moved really fast!' And?

Again, as evident by the fact that those around him react in a way that would demand the description be taken completely literally, you’re wrong.

Actually, it's made clear by the narration. When seen by the Jedi, Bane is SEEN! Zannah can SEE his movements too! From their POV, Bane is clearly visible. Ergo…

Prove up. Saying that they see him doesn't make it so. Not that it changes anything about Kas'im and Co being completely incapable of detecting Bane's movements; that would still stand, and all that would be established is that the Ro2 Jedi were that good.

And Mace, stronger and better and faster, with advantages Raskta didn't, isn't in the same danger.

Prove up on any of that sh1t. Raskta, when powered by BM, was capable of moving so quickly that from the perspective of the Force Sensitive Johun Othone, she appeared to be behind, in front, and at both sides of Bane, all at once. Leaving mass after images to the eyes of a Force sensitive is beyond anything we see from the likes of the PT losers. She was also described as being the greatest swordsman of her age: an age where the Jedi Order was as militant as it had ever been, with greater emphasis placed on Jedi scouting and as a result a higher number of Jedi than ever before.

Everyone but your cheerleader can attest to it

Cheerleader? Well, at least that was a little better than “toadie,” which, while we’re on the subject, please try not to ever say again. A little creapy.

Yeah, right. Which is why she nearly got owned by one Jedi Knight.

Would this make her worse of Sarro better?

She has an aptitude that she hadn't come close to reaching and little more than instinct.

Completely unsupported. Given the fact that her potential was declared superior to Darth Bane’s, her instinctive link to the dark side was described as rivalling his, and she’d spent triple the amount of time his PoD incarnation had training under some of the greatest dark side knowledge ever (the entirety of Sadow‘s knowledge as well as the entirety of Revan‘s) it’s pretty clear that she would have been a good notch above PoD Bane (who was able to use the Force with a planetary scale), and somewhere between his PoD and Ro2 incarnations in ability. She's potentially superior, possesses the same instinctive link that made Bane such a fast progresser, and has been training for far longer than the planetary PoD Bane with a greater knowledge base and greater understanding of the darkside.

he can't even get her spells off against a ready Jedi opponent.
Way to downplay Bane

It’s generally hard to do so when you’re out numbered and immediately put on the defensive by BM powered and highly formidable foes. That said, when she's given space, she breaks through their defences with comical ease.

Pathetic. Palpatine's studied the Dark Side longer and from better sources than her.

And yet clearly lacked her natural ability given how he was nothing more than a street level combatant. As has been logically deduced, Zannah would likely be a good notch above PoD Bane in ability, who was already a planetary level combatant. She’s miles beyond Sidious.

And out of universe observations confirm...by TPM alone he was already the most powerful Sith over a thousand years! Heritage of the Sith, dearie.

Aside from being in-universe, Heritage of the Sith makes no such claim.

Yeah, 'with ease.' Mace firmly outclasses Grievous.

Prove up. Saying it doesn’t make it the case.

Even Bane was only described as 'a dozen,' so that's Grievous's cred right there

No, the quote wasn’t that he made 12 strikes a second, but that it seemed as if he wielded twelve sabers all at once from the perspective of the incredibly powerful Zannah. Given than the average human would be more than capable of making a few strikes per second with as weightless a weapon, and that Zannah is an incredibly powerful Force User, her general perception of what just one lightsaber would be capable of in a second would clearly be a very high number. Claiming that it seemed that Bane wielded twelve lightsaber at once speaks volumes, and far more than Grievous’ low rate sixteen strikes a second.

Now we know you're an troll. Face it, Nebby, Bane is described as...'a dozen' sabers at once. That kind of pales to mr. 'sixteen strikes in less than a second.'

As explained, no. That Bane seemed to be wielding twelve at once simply means that he can wield his lightsaber with twelve times the efficiency of one with respect to Zannah’s general perception and standards, which - being an astronomically powerful Force User - would clearly be far greater than that of the average human, who himself would be capable of about a few strikes in one second. If you truly wanted to analyse exactly what calibre of Force User Zannah actually is, logically evaluate the speed that she’d be capable of reaching, and the statement in question can arguably translate into Bane making hundreds of strikes a second. Grievous doesn't compare.

That changes anything how?

That the Force Users react in such a way affirms the idea that the description should be taken at face value, given that they would only be left wondering what the hell had actually happened if Bane had indeed been able to move completely beyond their perceptions.

Or they don't understand what just happened. Just like when Mace and Yoda perform great feats of speed, leaving people scratching their heads or not realizing what hit them. Hell, at one point, Mace skewers someone through the heart and is walking away before the guy even realizes Mace had attacked

Aside from the fact that you haven’t properly sourced any of that, your point is rendered moot on two levels:

1. Bane out performs such displays against Force User, as a Sith initiate.

2. The evidence you’re listing doesn’t stay true to the movie’s primary level of canon, and is thus worthless.

In other words "Uhhh...people don't get what he did...that makes it fact! Nothing about the speed being embellished which is the point but he must've been that fast cause the novel said he was!"
Circular reasoning, hello!
I want images and canon facts. Now.

Circular reasoning? Pointing out how the observations of the characters affirms my interpretation of the description as the only one doesn’t qualify as circular reasoning. Look it up, and try again.

Guy in charge of canon told you you're wrong and you still argue. Stupid brat

Guy in charge of canon told you your wrong, Bane brat. Sorry

Aside from the fact that you’ve failed to source where your boyfriend has apparently told me I’m wrong, that the canon policy that he originally set down, which has been approved by Lucas, disagrees, would automatically render his later words moot.

Answered above.
You=pwned.
Sorry. Go back to jerking off over Ro2 and leave this forum to some semblance of intelligence

I = pwned? LOL, seriously Lightsnake, the whole egotistical thing seriously doesn't suit you. As odd as it may be, you're probably better off sticking to calling people brats and cowards over the internet; it's more you.

Originally posted by Taven

Prove up or go home. In PoD, from the perspective of the Force Sensitive Bane, it seemed as if Kas’im wielded six lightsabers rather than just two. Yet another display of speed that the Bane duology offers that puts to shame what the best of the PT era were capable of.

He had two sabers. Two multiplied by three is six. He tripled his 'visible saber count'.

Mace has one lightsaber. He has been described as having 12 sabers at once. One multiplied by twelve is twelve. (big surprise huh?) Mace increased his 'VSC' by 12. He moved four times faster.

If this makes any sense, continue verbally masturbating Bane- if not, give it up.

LOL.

Firstly, who are you?

Secondly, pay attention.

"from the perspective of the Force Sensitive Bane"

That alone renders your entire little mathematical puzzle moot. Ignoring the fact that you haven't properly sourced your assertion that Mace appeared in such a way, even if you're telling the truth, it most certainly wasn't from the perspective of the astronomically powerful Darth Bane. Try again.

Jbill was that Mace info from ROTS?

Originally posted by Taven

Which would -- as I just said -- add to the ease with which Bane would be able to take them down, one by one. Either scenario presents drawbacks that either Zannah or Bane would be able to exploit with ease.

Your original assertion was that they were taken "totally" by surprise, which would encompass everything from how prepared they were to how complacent they may have been. Again, a concession will be fine.

1. Bane did it with only a year's worth of training under his belt, with no considerably source of knowledge and little understanding of the darkside, in an era where the large numbers of Sith had been weakening the dark side. He later on grows in ability for over ten years under a far greater source of knowledge and understanding of the darkside, obtains the orbalisk armour which pumps his body up with substantial levels of darkside energies and adrenaline, and in an era where the darkside was growing in strength due to the fact that it was focused solely in a few individuals. Even if those you mentioned had been able to match such a display (they haven't), that only accounts for an early PoD Bane, which pails in comparison to his Ro2 self.

2. Again, simply claiming that they have doesn't make it so. Prove up.

3. Even if they had, it clearly doesn't hold true to the movie's version of events, and as such is secondary and worthless.

When Kas'im was fighting in an art of saber combat with which he had mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat to high degrees -- where it was described that he had millions of moves and sequences at his disposal -- all of which Bane was completely unfamiliar with.

And funny how he was apparently getting his ass kicked, yet was still able to remain in control of the fight to the point that he ws capable of directing it throughout the temple at his leisure. Sure, he was losing, and he acknowledged as much, but he was hardly getting dominated.

Also, your reasoning is working under the logic that a Force User can't possibly keep up with another if he's not capable of visually seeing him, which is a sever misunderstanding of what enables Jedi and Sith to keep up with eachother.

Again, prove up or go home. You claiming so doesn't make it so.p/Quote]
The battle goes from Farfalla's POV at one point. Bane's movements are rather described. This is only possible if Farfalla is able to see him.

[Quote]
Which Bane outclasses (given that he pulls off the same from the perspective of powerful Force Users) when he was - for all intents and purposes -- a toddler.

Not to mention, you're using evidence that doesn't stay true to the movie's higher level of credibility, and as such is worthless.

Prove up. Where does he display this.

Even if Leland Chee did state as much (which you haven‘t provided proof for), then his word loses its value given that he’s contradicting the very canon policy he himself set down that Lucas also happened to personally approve.

Already done, though I’m not surprised you still don’t get it. It’s clearly not hyperbole because the Force Users around him are described as reacting in a way that they only would under the condition that the passage described the event exactly as it happened. For instance, if all that was said was that Bane moved so much faster than what their eyes could detect, you might have a case with labelling it hyperbole. However, given the fact that the Force Users are left completely perplexed as to what had happened -- which would only be the case if they hadn’t actually seen any of what had happened

(otherwise they wouldn‘t have been so bewildered, as they would have been able to in part see what was happening) -- it’s conclusive that character observations affirm the fact that the passage describes what was happening exactly as it happened.

Again, claiming as much doesn’t make it the case. Prove up.

Strawman. I was simply substantiating the now established fact that Bane was capable of completely outclassing the PT greats in speed at the very beginning of his career,

[Quote
by pointing out that the non-Force Sensitive eyes of the viewers are perfectly capable of detecting the speeds of the movie characters,[/Quote]
And guess what: non force sensitives such as the Umbarans can obviously see Bane move, too. Zannah's PoV shows bane moving as well. Seems that PoD was...hyperbole. Nothing more.
If the movies were slowed down for our perceptions, what's your point? All it means is that Bane's speed is less than you'd think.

yet powerful trained Force Users on the other hand are not with respect to an early Darth Bane.

Please, aside from the fact that his characterisation of Bane serves as the greatest character development that the entire mythos has to offer by about a mile (with Bane‘s path to the dark side actually being realistic and relatable),

or the fact that his Bane duology has received pretty much unanimous praise,

he’s the only author who’s writing actually appeals to both the hardcore Star wars fans, and the not so hardcore Star Wars fans.

You’ll find that every other Star Wars author out there will fill their stories with overly long and tedious descriptions about the scenery, or the technology, or the customs of a particular race, or the dynamics of the setting etc. that truthfully will only ever appeal to the serious fans out there.

Any casual reader would be completely bored by it. The Bane duology, on the other hand, is interesting and exciting from the get go, with the emphasis placed almost fully on the plot and that alone rather than the general Star Wars setting, giving the casual reader a fresh and easy to get into addition to the Expanded Universe, and the serious reader a highly enjoyable and significant addition to the mythos. The idea that these other authors are somehow on a level above purely because their stories are centered around the characters from the movies is as ridiculous as it gets.

And no, as I've established, it's not hyperbole.

I never claimed that being able to move faster than what your opponent can perceive automatically places you above them, in overall ability or speed. The point is that if his speed has such a far greater effect on Force Users than that the PT Jedi has on us Non-Force Sensitive viewers when he’s a mere initiate,
it’s absolutely clear that the disparity in speed between Bane’s later self and the same movie characters is astronomical.

Prove up or go home. In PoD, from the perspective of the Force Sensitive Bane, it seemed as if Kas’im wielded six lightsabers rather than just two.

Yet another display of speed that the Bane duology offers that puts to shame what the best of the PT era were capable of.

It being established makes who established it irrelevant.

Not even secondary evidence has him beating what Bane did when he was essentially a newbie. Primary evidence has him failing miserably. Love to see him even try and compete with a Ro2 Bane.

Why should Maul get the Caps Lock treatment? Aside from being extremely technically skilled with a lightsaber, and physically pushed to the peak, he’s displayed as being a pretty average Force User.

Certainly not ever shown to even be close to the same Kas’im who can block attacks that tear through temples.

And even then, Sidious was still somewhat visible, and as I’ve already said, in secondary material that the movie trumps.

That… doesn’t even come close to qualifying as an “example.” [/B]

Originally posted by Taven
Again, as evident by the fact that those around him react in a way that would demand the description be taken completely literally, you’re wrong.

I = pwned? LOL, seriously Lightsnake, the whole egotistical thing seriously doesn't suit you. As odd as it may be, you're probably better off sticking to calling people brats and cowards over the internet; it's more you.

You know something Nebaris? I'm sick of this. Stop being a cowardly little fool and IM me already. We'll solve this then

Comparing Darth Zannah and Darth Bane to the Emperor is rather ridiculous. According to omniscient narrator in Labyrinth of Evil, the Sith "had been waiting for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side fully and to become its dedicated instrument. This was Sidious." According to the Essential Guide to the Force, Darth Sidious was "the grim culmination of Sith knowledge, teaching, and philosophy." According to the Complete Visual Dictionary, Palpatine was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" and the Sith "had been waiting a millennium for the birth of one powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one -- the Sith's revenge on the Jedi Order for nearly wiping out the practitioners of the dark side." According to the Dark Side Sourcebook, "the most powerful of [the Sith Order] was Darth Sidious" and "[the Galactic Emperor] succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side." According to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Palpatine is identified as "the shadow" and "the darkness" within the Force (i.e. he is associated with the dark side itself) and, when Dooku views him "through the eyes of the dark side itself," Palpatine was "Beyond power. An event horizon. A black hole of the Force."

You will undoubtably argue the political angle, in which case I will point out to you now that Palpatine wasn't born Senator of the Sovereign System of Naboo, Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, or Galactic Emperor of the Galactic Empire. Therefore, the "power" mentioned is strength in the dark side. It's undeniable, really, though I'm sure your attempts will be great and long-winded. Let it be known that Lightsnake nor myself will argue the point unless you bring something new to the table. I have no interest in going back and forth with you arguing politics and me arguing Force power. You have no basis.

No offence Lightsnake, but some of your arguments are pretty damn poor. How can you not get that 12 at once is better than 16 in less than a second? An instance is faster than a second.

Anyway, I would attempt to take you on if not for the sad fact that I only have 4 minutes of computer time left. I can only hope that Neb doesn't let you have the last word.

Gideons post is much better though, and would be harder to beat, but I can see some ways to. I believe that he actual quote from the DSS is: 'when they emerged, the most powerful of them was Darth Sidious', which changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

Gotta go now.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
No offence Lightsnake, but some of your arguments are pretty damn poor. How can you not get that 12 [b]at once is better than 16 in less than a second? An instance is faster than a second.

Anyway, I would attempt to take you on if not for the sad fact that I only have 4 minutes of computer time left. I can only hope that Neb doesn't let you have the last word.

Gideons post is much better though, and would be harder to beat, but I can see some ways to. I believe that he actual quote from the DSS is: 'when they emerged, the most powerful of them was Darth Sidious', which changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

Gotta go now. [/B]

pg. 329 of the RotS novelization:
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind- the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

This is written from Anakin's perspective, who is undeniably stronger in the force (potential/ midi-chlorians) than bane. So Taven's dodge fails.

LS, I saved you the trouble of finding more quotes, this is the best, most cannon (from the novelization) instance that I could find seeing as how I don't believe in comic books.

Why thank you. And I do believe at this point, Anakin's got a BIT more experience with saber combat than Zannah did...

Originally posted by Jbill311
This is written from Anakin's perspective, who is undeniably stronger in the force (potential/ midi-chlorians) than bane. So Taven's dodge fails.

LS, I saved you the trouble of finding more quotes, this is the best, most cannon (from the novelization) instance that I could find seeing as how I don't believe in comic books.

1. Anakin's potential is absolutely irrelevant in current terms. It's realised power that would determine how well he would be able to boost his reflexes and keep up with the speed of a combatant, and as far as realised power goes, PoD Bane has him beaten by a mile.

2. You're relying on flawed evidence; the movie, higher form of canon, quite clearly shows us that by the time Anakin had arrived, Sidious and Mace's fight was already over. The novel is secondary, and in the cases where it contradicts the movie, it loses. The idea that Anakin perceived Mace's speed in such a way is trumped by the fact that he wasn't even there to see anything.