What If President Bush?

Originally posted by chithappens
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Now the rich probably pay just as much as the middle class in taxes, but what are they doing. One would be hard pressed to say the rich are doing "hard work". My mother is a labor and delivery nurse and she is helping brings lives into the world. Meanwhile, the board of directors are arguing what to name the next product. The more work you do, it seems the less you get paid.

I was just wondering on what you meant by, "the board of directors are arguing what to name the next product."

Yea.. a lot of people prefer the quiet life, nowaday, but particularly the older people. You know? What are you planning on in life?

Film actors, models, and musicians get paid a lot. Classical musicians don't.

Originally posted by Schecter
as i said, i feel that we should all pay an equal percentage of our income. if that equals a "shitload" more, then so be it. it has nothing to do with class wars and everything to do with fairness. it will never really be equal since people with a massive income and high paying accountants will always be able to understate some income and find loopholes and deductions. so equality is indeed an impossible dream but i think it should at least be attempted.

Pay and Position Raise
Being a minimum wager, I don't know what the manager does but have more legal pressure + direct involvement, thus a bigger exertion in a small amount of time. Where I started, they had the 1st year workers who were 14 or 15, and each year after that they had more managerial work. Some places just induce pay raise, like if you work at a theme park, or maybe move you to the cash register. I never worked a cash register, yet. True, if you did cheerleading or dance, you might even be thin enough to get a performance or modeling job with fair ease. It's very rigorous. You can even get hired first hand to answer questions, esp. if you have some significant college work. It's all about your persona.

Originally posted by chithappens
Ha, that reminds me that my girlfriend (she is a camp conselour) was talking about this little girl in the camp she works in: everyone was coloring and girl A was admiring the way my girlfriend was coloring her picture. Girl B hops up and screams, "I can color too! Look! I'm an artist!" but hardly any lines were colored in. It is good to encourage children, but it's another thing to continue that same mentality from pre-school on up to high school and then in college/"the real world" say, "Ok, now it's time to get real!"

I'm going to teach middle school. By that time they can read but I feel like it is around that age one begins to fine tune HOW they read and think which will begin to affect later in what ways they decide to make changes in their life to improves themselves. I feel like high school is not too late, but it is easier to impress the issue I'm trying to hit at middle school. Everyone is a smart ass in high school and I'm too young to start there.

Ha, I don't what else I can add to that because I feel pretty much the same.

It's weird because I have a cousin who sells dope and I feel like he is smarter than me. I think that if we switched spots, he would succeed and go further than I have so far, and I would probably being doing what he was, if not worse. He came from schools that really don't give a damn and will just give you a grade so graduate (this includes help on standardized test they give here in the U.S.) so they won't have 20 year old seniors in high school and so they don't lose money because of those dumb ass test (which does make one question why you would take money from a failing school and then give high performing schools all the money a failing school would have gotten; **** No Child Left Behind, it happened before NCLB but still...)

Now I'm ranting 😆

Regarding Piaget, when he discussed moral development, he says that most people never reach a stage where they can believe things outside of what their peers believe. They can not disagree and feel ok with it (I wish I could find a link that goes into detail on this, but they all seem cluttered with unnecessary jargon). All the links also focus on children only but he also states that adults act in this same manner. I hate I can't remember this.

People can't analyze because they don't know how to read. They assume everything is black and white when truthfully almost nothing is that simple. Even in wars, there is almost ALWAYS at least a third player involved. People want simple answers. They want to feel comfortable. They want to know why. Speak with confidence and strong diction and the people who agree with you will just agree with you more. It's sadly that simple to manipulate the masses which I why I agree with Piaget's understanding of moral development.

I know what you mean about the cousin in dope. I can't believe it when my show-off relatives play on that they have a s***** job.

Yea, most of my friends are only concerned about all guilty things they made happen such as this, but it still made the world a bad place.

Originally posted by demon-lllama

I was just wondering on what you meant by, "the board of directors are arguing what to name the next product."

Yea.. a lot of people prefer the quiet life, nowaday, but particularly the older people. You know? What are you planning on in life?

By the board of directors thing, I was being literal. They don't do a whole lot. Make themselves feel important while someone who is trying to take their seat kisses their ass for a minute and then they go to a penthouse. The stressed people are the "little men" under them. No one should get too stressed if you even have millions to lose - this means you had millions in the first place (then again, Paris Hilton thought losing her dog was the end of the world; everyone feels their situation is important).

I'm doing nothing significant. Be a teacher. Hopefully publish some of my poems, short stories and novels (pushing a sitcom pilot now). I'm a low-key guy. Help out people where I can, raise a family and grow up with my close friends. For me this is ideal, but I doubt it will work out just like this.

Originally posted by chithappens
By the board of directors thing, I was being literal. They don't do a whole lot. Make themselves feel important while someone who is trying to take their seat kisses their ass for a minute and then they go to a penthouse. The stressed people are the "little men" under them. [B]No one should get too stressed if you even have millions to lose - this means you had millions in the first place (then again, Paris Hilton thought losing her dog was the end of the world; everyone feels their situation is important).

I'm doing nothing significant. Be a teacher. Hopefully publish some of my poems, short stories and novels (pushing a sitcom pilot now). I'm a low-key guy. Help out people where I can, raise a family and grow up with my close friends. For me this is ideal, but I doubt it will work out just like this. [/B]

Most businesses are in software systems for money and things that connect with governments.

Assuming you don't have any debt, $40,000 is a decent starting salary, for example. Managing money is important. I just advise being very careful about debt. That is killing college graduates

Originally posted by chithappens
What do you mean by "but the government is way too big as of now to be supported by that,"?

Not trying to be an ass, just want to make sure I understand.

I meant that the government is too expensive to be supported by a reasonable VAT as of now. Meaning, you would have to cut a lot of the "services" the government pretends to provide in order to make it feasible.

Originally posted by chithappens
Well they didn't take it from me, no; however, in terms of entertainment there is a lot of bullshit everywhere.

I agree, but I hardly see that as the fault of the people providing the entertainment, but more of those longing for it and actually paying a shitload to see it.

Let me give you an comparison, personally I find circuses and freak shows pretty stupid and pointless, but I wouldn't blame the director and the artists and the "freaks" for trying to make a living that way...if they can make a really good living that way, more power to them, but the people paying for it are morons imho.

Originally posted by chithappens
The fact that people will pay $200 for a pair of sneakers is just crazy. I see people put rims on their cars (which brings more attention and chances of them getting robbed, etc.) but they live in the "ghetto." I worked as a waiter at a retirement community and this guy wore his $200 Jordan sneakers to work simply to show them off (also this same day he wore a Gucci set he claimed was around $500), but we are making $7.00 an hour. The point here is that you are right: people voluntairly spend the money, but would a rational, confident person do that if it were really outside their means (which I'm saying it an issue of being well informed and educated to understand what it is they are doing instead of blaming everything on bullshit)?

To address the arena issue again, I will mention what happened in Memphis, TN, where I live. The NBA franchise Grizzlies came to Memphis and played in an arena known as the Pyramid. It was getting old, but it was adequate enough to play games if renovated here and there. Instead, the Grizzlies proposed that the city of Memphis pay for most of it. Here's how the money came out:

Memphis: 20 year, $250 million lease.

Owners: $10 million...

Every year since 2000, they have cut MILLIONS AND MILLIONS from the Memphis City School budget (and the arena wasn't being built until 2004), for example. Taxes keep rising over and over, but it doesn't even make sense (To be fair, I should mention the main owner of the NBA franchise Washington Wizards put in $200 million of his own money to build that arena).

Now the rich probably pay just as much as the middle class in taxes, but what are they doing. One would be hard pressed to say the rich are doing "hard work". My mother is a labor and delivery nurse and she is helping brings lives into the world. Meanwhile, the board of directors are arguing what to name the next product. The more work you do, it seems the less you get paid.

They may not do "hard work" in your opinion, but they certainly do important work and work that sells and probably, in many cases, work that most others could never do....they don't get paid huge amounts of money for nothing (granted, some might, but that's really the problem of the people paying them the money, not mine), they actually provide services that are as worthy or more worthy than what they make.

As you might know I don't see any particular class as the enemy (and also not big corporations like many do today)...I think the problem is the government, in particular the huge size of the government. So, yes, rich people can use breaks and loopholes easier, middle class people get ****ed in the ass and poor people live shitty lives (though probably benefitting the most from what the government offers, but the problem is really the government doing that shit....not another class.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I meant that the government is too expensive to be supported by a reasonable VAT as of now. Meaning, you would have to cut a lot of the "services" the government pretends to provide in order to make it feasible.

I agree but I think we both think that's not likely to happen as of now.

Originally posted by Bardock42

I agree, but I hardly see that as the fault of the people providing the entertainment, but more of those longing for it and actually paying a shitload to see it.

Let me give you an comparison, personally I find circuses and freak shows pretty stupid and pointless, but I wouldn't blame the director and the artists and the "freaks" for trying to make a living that way...if they can make a really good living that way, more power to them, but the people paying for it are morons imho.

I do agree, but there is a huge number of idiots. Often times, people are going far beyond their means. To me, this is weird. Going to a movie, for example, is not going to destroy anyone's income, but paying thousands of dollars to go to a sports playoff game is much more likely to hurt. The average, loyal fan who cares is shut out while rich, casual, "I want to be seen" celebrities fill up the seats.

Just a bit annoying. It is what it is though.

Originally posted by Bardock42

They may not do "hard work" in your opinion, but they certainly do important work and work that sells and probably, in many cases, work that most others could never do....they don't get paid huge amounts of money for nothing (granted, some might, but that's really the problem of the people paying them the money, not mine), they actually provide services that are as worthy or more worthy than what they make.

As you might know I don't see any particular class as the enemy (and also not big corporations like many do today)...I think the problem is the government, in particular the huge size of the government. So, yes, rich people can use breaks and loopholes easier, middle class people get ****ed in the ass and poor people live shitty lives (though probably benefitting the most from what the government offers, but the problem is really the government doing that shit....not another class.

In my opinion, the people who get paid the most are not doing anything the average guy couldn't do if given the same oppurtunity and education.

The "worth" of a job is completely up to subjectivity, but if you compare salary with difficulty and importance, it can get kinda appalling in my opinion (even though these qualities are also subjective). It's easy for a politician to say that we should go to war, but do you ever see them strap on the boots?

It is the government, but the government is run by people; people who want to profit and obviously are not always trying to meet the needs of the people.

In Plato's "Republic" he talks about "philosopher kings that basically run the political stuff. They are wise and make the best decisions for the utopia:

Philosopher kings (wiki link)

The problem with governments (and the idea of a philosopher king) is that people are corrupted by power. Even a dictatorship could work in a way that was fair for the people (at least attempting to be so) of the society given that the dictator cares for his followers, but this is not the case. You'd be hard pressed to find a person who has complete, absolute faith in all that their specific government does (doesn't mean they are well-informed).

Yes the problem is the "government(s)" but the government(s) is run by people and so are the big corporations so I see it as a joint problem.

Originally posted by Bardock42
...poor people live shitty lives (though probably benefitting the most from what the government offers, but the problem is really the government doing that shit....not another class.

I'll focus on a few parts, as we mostly agree on the others and/or I have no idea what to say:

Originally posted by chithappens

In my opinion, the people who get paid the most are not doing anything the average guy couldn't do if given the same oppurtunity and education.

I don't know, I somehow doubt that everyone could invent google or be a master surgeon or even make genius stock market decisions...regardless of education. But I do, in a way, agree with the point that is kinda implied in it, that everyone should get a chance to prove and better themselves (being an anarchist I just don't believe that anyone else should be forced to pay for it)

Originally posted by chithappens

The "worth" of a job is completely up to subjectivity, but if you compare salary with difficulty and importance, it can get kinda appalling in my opinion (even though these qualities are also subjective). It's easy for a politician to say that we should go to war, but do you ever see them strap on the boots?

Yes, the worth of a job is subjective...it is how much other people value it. I value a guy mowing my lawn at about 5$ an hour...anything much above it I rather do it myself. So I won't pay more than that and the "worth" of a job (at least in the way I use it) is determined just that way...how many people value your work at what price. Which is why I am all for Basketballers getting millions of dollars. Apparently there are a shitload of people who'd pay 50 bucks and more to see them play...

But you are right I am not talking about "worth" in a moral sense at all, strictly monetary.

Originally posted by chithappens

It is the government, but the government is run by people; people who want to profit and obviously are not always trying to meet the needs of the people.

True, that's kinda my point though, the government is not inherently "bad" or "selfish", people are, the government, sadly though, is a immensely powerful tool to let people indulge in their selfishness. The government is basically like one big ****ing gun forcing everyone to do what they want (also a reason why I am for citizens having lots of little guns).

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'll focus on a few parts, as we mostly agree on the others and/or I have no idea what to say:

I don't know, I somehow doubt that everyone could invent google or be a master surgeon or even make genius stock market decisions...regardless of education. But I do, in a way, agree with the point that is kinda implied in it, that everyone should get a chance to prove and better themselves (being an anarchist I just don't believe that anyone else should be forced to pay for it)

Yes, the worth of a job is subjective...it is how much other people value it. I value a guy mowing my lawn at about 5$ an hour...anything much above it I rather do it myself. So I won't pay more than that and the "worth" of a job (at least in the way I use it) is determined just that way...how many people value your work at what price. Which is why I am all for Basketballers getting millions of dollars. Apparently there are a shitload of people who'd pay 50 bucks and more to see them play...

But you are right I am not talking about "worth" in a moral sense at all, strictly monetary.

True, that's kinda my point though, the government is not inherently "bad" or "selfish", people are, the government, sadly though, is a immensely powerful tool to let people indulge in their selfishness. The government is basically like one big ****ing gun forcing everyone to do what they want (also a reason why I am for citizens having lots of little guns).

LOL @ the lawn, if you actually afford it. I used to let the grass grow for the sake of the grass when I had strength. I mean, @ the pace, LOL, imagine someone going slow to make more money.

Yea, my favorite things in movies is like the new movies Johnny Depp did, I dunno I am from Fort Lauderdale. Anyway, when people finally get to having a point on the net when we discuss is when they say they are in Pirates for the money. They don't say anything after, which makes me feel I have a liberty to state their worthlessness and not be harassed for saying so. These people I talk to are 14 or 15, too, and I am 22.

Originally posted by Bardock42

I don't know, I somehow doubt that everyone could invent google or be a master surgeon or even make genius stock market decisions...regardless of education. But I do, in a way, agree with the point that is kinda implied in it, that everyone should get a chance to prove and better themselves (being an anarchist I just don't believe that anyone else should be forced to pay for it)

I certianly do not mean to imply that everyone who is in the upper class is full of shit and useless. Often times rich people are spoon fed what they are given. You cover the rest of what I mean.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Yes, the worth of a job is subjective...it is how much other people value it. I value a guy mowing my lawn at about 5$ an hour...anything much above it I rather do it myself. So I won't pay more than that and the "worth" of a job (at least in the way I use it) is determined just that way...how many people value your work at what price. Which is why I am all for Basketballers getting millions of dollars. Apparently there are a shitload of people who'd pay 50 bucks and more to see them play...

But you are right I am not talking about "worth" in a moral sense at all, strictly monetary.

I have no issue with what you say here at all. I just find it peculiar that a lot of the high risk jobs do not pay more than they do.

Originally posted by Bardock42

True, that's kinda my point though, the government is not inherently "bad" or "selfish", people are, the government, sadly though, is a immensely powerful tool to let people indulge in their selfishness. The government is basically like one big ****ing gun forcing everyone to do what they want (also a reason why I am for citizens having lots of little guns).

This is true and also a more concise way of putting what I said. This is also why I want to teach kids how to understand what they read because the rhetoric thrown out by something like Bush saying, "The entire civilized world is against Hussein," is pretty ironic when you think about it: the democratic, civilized people take over the undemocratic, uncivilized people through brute force without taking a democratic approach. 😆

Originally posted by chithappens
I have no issue with what you say here at all. I just find it peculiar that a lot of the high risk jobs do not pay more than they do.

Capitalism at work.

Originally posted by chithappens
I have no issue with what you say here at all. I just find it peculiar that a lot of the high risk jobs do not pay more than they do.

Symmetric Chaos is right, though I find his condescending tone misplaced. The reason they get less is because there are many people that could do their job as well if they would refuse to and probably because the work is just not as valuable (from a monetary sense) as others.

Though I am sure the evil capitalists want to pay as little as possible...personally I am quite a fan of unions in a free country.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Symmetric Chaos is right, ...

Originally posted by demon-lllama
You do realize all your arguments are based on how the "average white hick" gets all the attention and every social pleasure they want.

N-no, that thought somehow never crossed my mind.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Symmetric Chaos is right, though I find his condescending tone misplaced. The reason they get less is because there are many people that could do their job as well if they would refuse to and probably because the work is just not as valuable (from a monetary sense) as others.

I think it's more likely a skilled vs unskilled thing. There are plenty of necessary, dangerous, economically important jobs that just about anyone can do. Large available work force drives down wages no matter how much the job is worth to the higher ups.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think it's more likely a skilled vs unskilled thing. There are plenty of necessary, dangerous, economically important jobs that just about anyone can do. Large available work force drives down wages no matter how much the job is worth to the higher ups.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's what I meant when I said "because there are many people that could do their job as well". So, yeah, agreed.

Ah, poor reading on my part.

Well the question remains, from a financial standpoint, why would any working class/middle class citizen vote for McCain?

Originally posted by chithappens
Well the question remains, from a financial standpoint, why would any working class/middle class citizen vote for McCain?

There isn't really any good economic reason. In all honesty, the main reasons would likely be because there are people that really believe in Republicans and there are certainly people who would do it just because they don't want a black guy as President.

Originally posted by chithappens
Well the question remains, from a financial standpoint, why would any working class/middle class citizen vote for McCain?