i must admit i do sometimes find it rather frustrating to present a feat or scene from a comic only to have it unmercilessly and skeptically picked apart. sometimes posters can be extremely "nitpicky" with them........which is not entirely unexpected if they are in opposition to you're point of view
Forums don't ruin comics or characters.
What they CAN do, and have done for me, is ruin my perception of comic book fans nowadays.
Everyone thinks that because you have a thread "establishing" tiers of power, that this is the official standing, that they have some kind of inside knowledge and superiority.
Most notably when people got pissed off at Hulk's power level in World War Hulk. I didn't give a crap, not because I like Hulk, but because his moniker has always been "Strongest one there is.", which is precisely what World War Hulk showed. If your idea of a "realistic" Hulk depiction is him being challenged by people who seriously can't challenge him, simply because you dislike Hulk, then you're a f*cking idiot. Hulk SHOULD be dealing with groups like say, X-Men, with no trouble. That's precisely how those fights should be happening, but haven't been.
This forum has gone from one extreme to another. When I used to frequent this place, back in 2004, when I was one of its main respected members (Along with Never, Arachnoid Freak, Victor Von Doom and others), it was a balance of technical analysis and acceptance of fiction.
It then descended into any thread being acceptable. There was a Hulk Vs Rogue thread, a Storm Vs Dr. Doom thread etc. These threads continued because idiots wouldn't accept that some fights are open and shut cases. We had arguments like, "If Storm created a whirlwind in Dr. Doom's heart, he'd die.", and other over-reaching bullshit arguments. Instead of "She'd get her ass whooped.", and letting that be that, and moving onto productive discussions. I COULD beat Real Madrid at football...if I beat all their players and put the ball into the net more times.
Yeah, that's a way I could do it...but would it ever happen? No. So move on.
Now it's, in my opinion, the exact opposite. Everything is technical, and it's technically analysed with too much blanket. Though I admit that it's good how each member is allowed to make their case as to why someone should be in one tier or the other.
My whole issue with forums ruining things is just that. Not comics, not characters, but my opinion of people who read them. You're getting too far into it.
I understand that some writers contradict others, and in judging whether one guy could beat another, you have to consider these things. However, it seems dumb to me that everyone goes on about "bad writing" or P.I.S. or whatever.
Why can't you just take it for what it is? It's there, on the panel. Don't get TOO caught up arguing passionately about what MIGHT be IF something had continued or done differently, because it hasn't been. Argue about what's there.
It happened to me recently here. People said "IF the Deadpool/Iron Fist fight in Cable & Deadpool #21 had continued, Iron Fist would have won.". I don't care what basis you have, that's speculation. Judge by what's there, on panel. An even fight.
If a writer next decides to have Iron Fist buttf*cking Deadpool, then I'd be miffed, but accept it. Just like if Deadpool did the same, an Iron Fist fan would be miffed, but have to accept it? What choice have you got, but to accept it. These are the people writing the stories. We can dislike the most bogus character butchery, but the fact is that if it's canon and in print, we can't deny it. These are not YOUR characters.
YOU have done nothing for them. When you are hired to write, you can have your say. Until then, stop bitching at people who have had way more involvement with comics than you ever will. It's like armchair football fans who act like they know better than the manager.
Squirrel Girl is a prime example, with all her victories. I think that is the writers' way of saying; "It happened, deal.".
So a lot more people here have to learn where to aim their distaste for things, and learn that it doesn't change things. That's what gets tainted for me on these forums.
Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. Some of you have such an over-inflated sense of knowledge and entitlement, that it is shocking.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What they CAN do, and have done for me, is ruin my perception of comic book fans nowadays.
Yes, this can happen.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everyone thinks that because you have a thread "establishing" tiers of power, that this is the official standing, that they have some kind of inside knowledge and superiority.
Everyone? Gross generalization. Besides, the tiers thread is a tool, not a declaration of absolute fact. And it actually helps a lot with limiting the number of curbstomp threads that you have a problem with later in your post.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Most notably when people got pissed off at Hulk's power level in World War Hulk. I didn't give a crap, not because I like Hulk, but because his moniker has always been "Strongest one there is.", which is precisely what World War Hulk showed. If your idea of a "realistic" Hulk depiction is him being challenged by people who seriously can't challenge him, simply because you dislike Hulk, then you're a f*cking idiot. Hulk SHOULD be dealing with groups like say, X-Men, with no trouble. That's precisely how those fights should be happening, but haven't been.
So a few whiny fans (or anti-fans) ruined the event for you? That happens with every character, every event. To paint it as the majority, however, is again a mischaracterization of the forums.
Also, watch the language.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It then descended into any thread being acceptable. There was a Hulk Vs Rogue thread, a Storm Vs Dr. Doom thread etc. These threads continued because idiots wouldn't accept that some fights are open and shut cases. We had arguments like, "If Storm created a whirlwind in Dr. Doom's heart, he'd die.", and other over-reaching bullshit arguments. Instead of "She'd get her ass whooped.", and letting that be that, and moving onto productive discussions. I COULD beat Real Madrid at football...if I beat all their players and put the ball into the net more times.
Usually such threads are just due to a lack of knowledge. More people on the forums, which we now have, will always equal more lopsided threads because of it.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Now it's, in my opinion, the exact opposite. Everything is technical, and it's technically analysed with too much blanket. Though I admit that it's good how each member is allowed to make their case as to why someone should be in one tier or the other.
Agreed. Overanalysis kills a lot of discussions, and often isn't relevant to comics.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I understand that some writers contradict others, and in judging whether one guy could beat another, you have to consider these things. However, it seems dumb to me that everyone goes on about "bad writing" or P.I.S. or whatever.
Agreed. Power levels cater to the story, not vice-versa. Too much emphasis is placed on power levels, however, instead of reading the comics as they're intended: as stories.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It happened to me recently here. People said "IF the Deadpool/Iron Fist fight in Cable & Deadpool #21 had continued, Iron Fist would have won.". I don't care what basis you have, that's speculation. Judge by what's there, on panel. An even fight.
Logical inferences can be made based on a character's body of work. I'm not familiar with this particular discussion, so you may be correct about it, but determining a winner even after a "stalemate" in a comic is very possible.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
YOU have done nothing for them. When you are hired to write, you can have your say. Until then, stop bitching at people who have had way more involvement with comics than you ever will. It's like armchair football fans who act like they know better than the manager.
I disagree here. Intelligent fans can have valid complaints about a writer, character, or story. The fact that they are in the industry and we aren't doesn't invalidate our opinions, especially since we keep the industry going with our fandom.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Squirrel Girl is a prime example, with all her victories. I think that is the writers' way of saying; "It happened, deal.".
She's hilarious. And yes, it's funny when people get upset over her.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. Some of you have such an over-inflated sense of knowledge and entitlement, that it is shocking.
I'd be one of them, though I'd argue respectfully. And I'd feel far less ashamed of debating a writer than I would if I just accepted the edict from some "higher authority" as though it were infallible.
...
You have some good points, but I feel like you're allowing your perception to be tainted by too few people. We're a large comic community, and our average demographic is probably about age 14-19, despite several older members. As such, you'll get a large amount of idiocy. But, as with your advice to some fans, I'd suggest that you simply deal with it. There's rational debate on the forums that isn't as mindless as your caricature of it. You're not the first to notice this, but the trick is always being able to sift through the junk to find the interesting discussion. It still exists.
But yeah, teenagers can be stupid. Very stupid. Or people in general, for that matter.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everyone thinks that because you have a thread "establishing" tiers of power, that this is the official standing, that they have some kind of inside knowledge and superiority.
Not me. I know the tier thread is off and no one ranked the characters I suggested no too long ago. disgust
Most notably when people got pissed off at Hulk's power level in World War Hulk. I didn't give a crap, not because I like Hulk, but because his moniker has always been "Strongest one there is.", which is precisely what World War Hulk showed.
I like War World Hulk. I didn't care for the Dr. Strange part.
World War Hulk should be on his own island or country like Dr Doom.
With his Warbound. 😉
I understand that some writers contradict others, and in judging whether one guy could beat another, you have to consider these things. However, it seems dumb to me that everyone goes on about "bad writing" or P.I.S. or whatever.-AC
I don't like it when continuity is messed with. disgust
Regarding the part where I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made:
See what happened when they made the film adaptation of Hannibal. Jodie Foster didn't sign on to play Clarice because she felt Clarice wouldn't have acted as she did. She...would have, because Thomas Harris created her and he ultimately decides precisely what she is and what she does.
Whilst a writer is not really a creator, they've been given more authority over a character. That said, you can't hold up one example as truer than another, because by that token it's all a subjective take on the character.
And no, Digi, I loved the event of World War Hulk. It was the depiction of Hulk that he's deserved for years.
As for language, I said "f*cking", I doubt anybody here is scarred for life.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As for language, I said "f*cking", I doubt anybody here is scarred for life.
It's the context. You were calling people idiots, and prefacing it with the word. Swearing, in and of itself, isn't reprehensible, and is a normal part of most peoples' vocabulary that frequent the forums. But there's a big difference between, say, "My life is f-ing nuts right now!" and "You're a f-ing idiot!" One is overtly insulting, derogatory, etc. and a breach of forum rules. The other is just an exclamation.
So like I said, watch your language. Perhaps 'watch your tone' would've been more appropriate, but would be splitting hairs at that point.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Regarding the part where I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made:See what happened when they made the film adaptation of Hannibal. Jodie Foster didn't sign on to play Clarice because she felt Clarice wouldn't have acted as she did. She...would have, because Thomas Harris created her and he ultimately decides precisely what she is and what she does.
Awful analogy.
Originally posted by Darth Vicious
Same here. If I were to be influenced by KMC I probably wouldve stopped reading Wolverine comics a long time ago. I enjoyed the Onslaught saga a lot and its one of my favorite storyline ever but by KMC standards is crap. As long as u enjoy a particular comic/character/event/feat f**k what everyone thinks.
Re: KMC--Ruining the enjoyment of comics??
Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . . for me? sometimes.the overanalysis that takes place on the kmc sometimes DOES take the pure fun out of reading a book. often kmc "finds" problems that might otherwise have gone overlooked, robbing the enjoyment out of particular scenes or stories. people become so concerned with the canonicity of a story, whether continuity is carefully maintained, whether a character is depicted perfectly . . .
[b]sometimes
-- not always -- the kmc can steal the fun out of reading a comic, imo. a quick example i raised in another thread was superman v the source-empowered infinityman. that was a GREAT showing for superman, and i very much enjoyed the battle, but i've heard people screaming it was PIS. maybe it was, but i still enjoyed the battle, but having people cry about it and pick it apart lessens it somewhat.anyone else ever run across a similar problem? [/B]
Don't take this place too serious. Just keep reading your books , enjoy yourself, and I'm sure you can make up your own conclusions. See , fans will always flock to a place like this and back up their character regardless . And that takes away from the versus forum IMO.
I'll quote something Digi said about another sight. '' Just take it all in a grain of salt".
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriClearly the answer to all the forum's problems is to accept that comic book writers are omniscient and that disagreeing with portrayal of a character is blasphemy.
Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. Some of you have such an over-inflated sense of knowledge and entitlement, that it is shocking.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriYou can cite certain portrayals of characters as inconsistent and therefore "untrue to the character" based on the majority of character showings.
Whilst a writer is not really a creator, they've been given more authority over a character. That said, you can't hold up one example as truer than another, because by that token it's all a subjective take on the character.
Not saying that these citings would be correct, but to accurately assess that a writer has miswritten a character is not impossible.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Clearly the answer to all the forum's problems is to accept that comic book writers are omniscient and that disagreeing with portrayal of a character is blasphemy.
Why is that clearly the answer? I never suggested such a thing or anything close to it. I actually said near enough the opposite.
"I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made.".
Stop being a hyperbolic idiot.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why is that clearly the answer? I never suggested such a thing or anything close to it. I actually said near enough the opposite.
"I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made.".
Generally, if I disagree with a choice that a writer made, I believe they made the wrong choice.
So it seems that you're simply splitting hairs between whether we tell them that we disagree or whether we simply verbalize our disagreements to others.
Clearly my hyperbolic idiocy is interfering with my reading comprehension here, otherwise I would recognize the sentiment of "You can't say they're wrong, you can only disagree" as to be such a fine distinction that arguing the difference is idiocy in itself.
Anyways, there's very little that makes a fan a less credible source than the writer. Fans know how a character typically reacts in certain situations, and they know how a character should be portrayed.
The writer has the authority to make a character dance however they please. Doesn't mean that it's the right choice to make, but it is there.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Generally, if I disagree with a choice that a writer made, I believe they made the wrong choice.
Fine, as I said. What I don't believe you have the right to do is ignore the choice they HAVE put into canonical print and disregard it because you dislike it. It's fact and canon at that point, you do not have greater authority over the lore.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
So it seems that you're simply splitting hairs between whether we tell them that we disagree or whether we simply verbalize our disagreements to others.
That's not what I'm saying, you don't understand my above point.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Clearly my hyperbolic idiocy is interfering with my reading comprehension here, otherwise I would recognize the sentiment of "You can't say they're wrong, you can only disagree" as to be such a fine distinction that arguing the difference is idiocy in itself.
You're the one who said I feel writers are omniscient and to disagree is blasphemy. Not me.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Anyways, there's very little that makes a fan a less credible source than the writer. Fans know how a character typically reacts in certain situations, and they know how a character should be portrayed.
No, they do not. They know the how other writers feel a character should act, or react. The character has no personality or traits other than that written for them.
Just like football managers, there's a reason they are managing and I am not, despite how much I love and know about football. There's a reason people are writing for Marvel and you're not.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
The writer has the authority to make a character dance however they please. Doesn't mean that it's the right choice to make, but it is there.
It's the right choice subjectively or wrong choice subjectively. My issue is with non-acceptance.
-AC
If I may I'm more inclined to say the writers are chosen primarily for their writing talent, or success as a writer. I'm sure they know about characters, but I don't believe they have to be a walking encyclopedia of them either. There may be some hardcore, oldschool fans that know more about a particular character than a writer, but to say something that is canon isn't canon or doesn't make any difference (regardless if it isn't quite consistent) won't override the fact that it is there, even if we choose not to use it here.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriIgnore and disregard? No, we can't. Believe a writer is wrong, and tell him/her so if they were to come on KMC? Yes, we can.Fine, as I said. What I don't believe you have the right to do is ignore the choice they HAVE put into canonical print and disregard it because you dislike it. It's fact and canon at that point, you do not have greater authority over the lore.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriIn order for characters to be properly written, they need some consistency with previous writing, or at least an appropriate, sensible explanation for any change.
No, they do not. They know the how other writers feel a character should act, or react. The character has no personality or traits other than that written for them.
Otherwise they are simply miswritten. It was therefore the wrong way to write them.
Writers are not infallible, and they can depict a character improperly. Writers have, in the past, mentioned afterwards that they had "no idea how to write [character]."
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriWriting skill is not the only reason that they write for Marvel. Furthermore, you can have a fantastic story but have a certain character become a plot tool and be miswritten. The fact that they are skilled writers doesn't qualify them as mistake-less.
Just like football managers, there's a reason they are managing and I am not, despite how much I love and know about football. There's a reason people are writing for Marvel and you're not.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriFair enough. I can agree that simply ignoring events because you don't like them is idiocy.
It's the right choice subjectively or wrong choice subjectively. My issue is with non-acceptance.
My issue was with "Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. ".
Writers can make wrong choices.