Lady Shiva vs Wolverine

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL just looked at the scana again. Wolverine won teh fought due to his claws again.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/dprfla/wolvievsShang2.jpg

If he hadnt had the claws the fight would have kept going on, also Wolverine HF alsp helps him take damage that Shang gives him.

That certainly doent prove that he can beat Shang in h2h. Blowing things out of proportion again. Also im pretty sure that Shang has fought people like Wolverine before was is the writer trying to make out he hasn't?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know and I dont care.

Jinzin, two things. First, calm down, dude.

Second, I just read that Iron Fist / Wolverine limited series with Junzo. The reason Iron Fist was captured and in the cell in the first place was because he got whacked by an actual dragon when he was depowered. Just in case other people are doing a double-take, yes. Danny was knocked out by an actual flying dragon. He thought that since the dragon was from Kun Lun, the dragon would recognize him and not attack him. Unfortunately for Danny, the dragon was already being controlled. When he finally woke up, he was already in the cell with Yu Ti. And again, since he was depowered, no healing chi abilities. Was there a reason you neglected to mention that piece of information?

So a depowered Danny Rand, injured and knocked out by a flying dragon, who was distraught over Misty... getting thrown around by Junzo is a good example to compare with Wolverine, who himself didn't even lay a single hit on Junzo? K. Not really.

Phantomzone, apparently that was the first time Shang-Chi fought Wolverine.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, two things. First, calm down, dude.

Second, I just read that Iron Fist / Wolverine limited series with Junzo. The reason Iron Fist was captured and in the cell in the first place was because he got whacked by an actual dragon when he was depowered. Just in case other people are doing a double-take, yes. Danny was knocked out by an actual flying dragon. He thought that since the dragon was from Kun Lun, the dragon would recognize him and not attack him. Unfortunately for Danny, the dragon was already being controlled. When he finally woke up, he was already in the cell with Yu Ti. And again, since he was depowered, no healing chi abilities. Was there a reason you neglected to mention that piece of information?

So a depowered Danny Rand, injured and knocked out by a flying dragon, who was distraught over Misty... getting thrown around by Junzo is a good example to compare with Wolverine, who himself didn't even lay a single hit on Junzo? K. Not really.

Phantomzone, apparently that was the first time Shang-Chi fought Wolverine.

I don't recall Fist stating that he was injured or anything of the sort. Characters are KOed all the time wake up and fight the bad guy. I didn't consider that IF was injured since he never stated himself to be, nor do I remember it being implied though I could be mistaken, we already know he didn't have the IF which is why it's a testiment to sheer skill more than anything else. And Wolverine had a front lepel grab on Junzo, it's why Junzo started fighting defensively in spite of having his IF whipped out.

Distraught over Misty the first time he attacked him, the second?

Furthermore I fail to see the issue here when he's manhandled Steel Serpent as well who himself was a direct equal in danny in h2h combat.

Wolverine's claws played little role in his man handling of Shang Chi. They didn't even make an appearance until the end of the fight when Chi was already pinned and had his head wedged between two bars. Alternatively, Wolverine could have just squeezed the shit out his throat, stopping blood flow to Chi's brain and forcing him to lose consciousness quickly. Once again, his claws played little part in that fight. When Wolverine was inside The Cage, he had Crusher Creel in a similar possession (without his claws) and said he could kill him in 43 different ways.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm perfectly calm. I'm simply pointing out Zone for what he is.. a fool.

I don't recall Fist stating that he was injured or anything of the sort. Characters are KOed all the time wake up and fight the bad guy. I didn't consider that IF was injured since he never stated himself to be, nor do I remember it being implied though I could be mistaken, we already know he didn't have the IF which is why it's a testiment to sheer skill more than anything else. And Wolverine had a front lepel grab on Junzo, it's why Junzo started fighting defensively in spite of having his IF whipped out.

Distraught over Misty the first time he attacked him, the second?

Furthermore I fail to see the issue here when he's manhandled Steel Serpent as well who himself was a direct equal in danny in h2h combat.

And yes, if Iron Fist were struck with a staff to the back of the head and woke up... I could see him being ok once he wakes up. But that's not the case here. He got whacked by a flying dragon. And this dragon isn't like Lockheed's size. It was the size of a big truck or something. He didn't defend himself because he was hoping the dragon would recognize him. When he wakes up in the dungeon, that's when Junzo starts throwing him around. No way are you near 100% after having just woken up from being whacked by a flying dragon. Wolverine would be a 100% because of his healing factor, not depowered Danny Rand.

And he was distraught over Misty from the beginning. He didn't know where she was, only that Junzo captured her. They even have a conversation about how Iron Fist is losing his cool the first time Junzo throws him around. Obviously, he was more distraught the second time Junzo throws him around since that is after Junzo shows him her severed arm.

I also fail to see the issue here when we have a recovering Iron Fist embarassing Wolverine on-panel. Fact is, the Junzo comparisons are not as clear cut as you'd like them to be. Heck, Luke Cage in his yellow shirt managed to actually hit Junzo. Is he now the better of both Iron Fist and Wolverine? Nah.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know and I dont care.

Logan takes this handily but only due to his claws, h2h and based on skill he would be stomped 10/10.

Originally posted by Badabing
So, you are disregarding feats, abilities and showings?

Originally posted by Badabing
So, you are disregarding feats, abilities and showings?

Er no. Im just saying that I think that Wolverine cant beat Lady shiva via skill.

Pict said thats irrelevant I dont care because I just want to discuss Wolverines skill level but im well aware that Wolverine beats Lady Shiva with his claws and HF.

Originally posted by carnage52
so it would appear.

Nope. Im just discusiing Wolverines skill level he wins via Hf and claws.

Originally posted by jinzin
I see, so when Punisher and Bullseye exchange blows and he whips out a gun after landing the last effective shot to end the quarrel that's a win, when Wolverine and Shang exchange blows and Wolverine whips out his claws after landing the last effecive shot.. "the fight could have kept going"... Yup, but I'm the one who's hypocritical? 🙄

Read the Punisher scans again. Bullseye waited 3panels for Punisher to put the gun to his head. Why didnt he move for three panels he was obvoulsy too dazed to move, the fight had already been won.

In the Shang Chi fight there absolutely no proof that Shang Chi was dazed. All we see is Wolverine put his claws to his head and hold his head with the other hand. Nobody in that position would move because they know they will get a claw in his head.

So no im not being hypocritical.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I was talking more about your use of swearing and characterizations that both Phantomzone and I were throwing PMS/b1tch fits. Let's all just reset and be more courteous. Makes the debates and reasoning look better. Truce?

And yes, if Iron Fist were struck with a staff to the back of the head and woke up... I could see him being ok once he wakes up. But that's not the case here. He got whacked by a flying dragon. And this dragon isn't like Lockheed's size. It was the size of a big truck or something. He didn't defend himself because he was hoping the dragon would recognize him. When he wakes up in the dungeon, that's when Junzo starts throwing him around. No way are you near 100% after having just woken up from being whacked by a flying dragon. Wolverine would be a 100% because of his healing factor, not depowered Danny Rand.

And he was distraught over Misty from the beginning. He didn't know where she was, only that Junzo captured her. They even have a conversation about how Iron Fist is losing his cool the first time Junzo throws him around. Obviously, he was more distraught the second time Junzo throws him around since that is after Junzo shows him her severed arm.

I also fail to see the issue here when we have a recovering Iron Fist embarassing Wolverine on-panel. Fact is, the Junzo comparisons are not as clear cut as you'd like them to be. Heck, Luke Cage in his yellow shirt managed to actually hit Junzo. Is he now the better of both Iron Fist and Wolverine? Nah.

Wow what a suprise, you went up to check if Jinzins facts were correct and found out they weren't.

You can make a truce with him if you like but ive already tried being polite to him in the past and hes continued to be rude to me, so as long as I dont go overboard im going to be as rude as I like...within KMC rules. Why should I be polite to somebody who is incapable of being objective and constantly rude, there no half way with him so im not going to be polite

Originally posted by jinzin
Doc's worked with Cap before, Doc's worked with DD before, the man was able to see in depth play by play into Wolverine's past to see the battle first hand, he's able to account things that take place in the past, in the future, accross the MU, and in different planes of reality, he's used spells that have given him intimate knowledge of the MU, he's a well versed member of the Illuminate, he's able to use spells that can tell him the most intimate secrets of a hero/villain at nothing more than a request, but in spite of all that, in spite of the likelyhood that he'd know more about Cap's fighting ability than you, more about Cap's fighting ability than ME, or the facts that the story was clearly supposed to present Azrael as what he was stated to be, or the common sense of him being a higher level being who's been alive longer than the human race has existed for the sole purpose of fighting/killing... You'll still continue to argue... that is after all what you do isn't it?

Meh i'll think i'll give you that anyway see below.

Originally posted by jinzin

Obviously? He's fought Cap weakened and being surprise attacked repeatedily. He's fought DD being blindsided and mindcontrolled. He's faired well on all occasions. And his ability to beat Az doesn't mean he's untouchable, nor does it detract from other people's fighting ability, but it DOES show a massive amount of skill on his part.
OF COURSE anything that shows Wolverine as a skilled character is BS according to you why wouldn't it be? 🙄

Ok read what I said again. I didnt say that Wolverine didnt have skill. I said if Az is the most skillful opponent hes faced and he didnt get touched once that means that he can beat Cap, Stick and DD without being hit......that is obvoulsy bs.

Originally posted by jinzin

What does THAT have to do with anything? You don't need to reply to understand my answer. You asked a question I answered it, you can go back and still look at the answer, no reply necessary, so why ask the question again? You CAN NOT be this dumb ALF... 😐

..and I didn't read it because the thread was closed and I couldn't reply to it. Thats not stupidity thats my reason and im not going to argue with you over this.

Originally posted by jinzin

That's not even the page I referenced. 🤨
The NEXT PAGE Junzo whips out the IF and Wolverine grabs him by the collar at which point J had to go in the defensive to avoid being skewered. He was fighting a completely defensive battle, more than Cage or Fist can say.

*sigh*.....IF was letting his emotions get to him when he fought Junzo, it affected his ability to fight......ok?

Originally posted by jinzin

SO.... WHAT?
What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make your misinterpretation and neglect of the events being discussed any more valid. Nice red herring though.

Well you always like to go on about how people on this forum think im a fool when the whole thread was about Wolverine pure h2h skill, obvoulsy the fact that it was closed for spite wont sink into your head because you dont want to understand what it implies.

Originally posted by jinzin

No it doesn't.... 😐
One occasion IF attacked out of base reaction. The other was after he had a couple minutes to compose himself and assess the situation he got HANDLED both times. You're just pulling shit out of your ass to rob Wolverine of any credability like you always do. 😐
Which is why you're a fool.

Right so the fact that Junzo said he was being too emotional and the fact that even IF was also b*tching about Misty should be completely ignored?

Originally posted by jinzin

I suppose I should rob him the benefit of the doubt like you do instead?
Uh, no, it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses mister "DD was surprised even though he surprise attacked Logan out of nowhere!" what it DOES sound like is that I read the story.. Like I usually do, which is why I understand context, and why you look foolish in comparison.

I ALREADY said the SS feat is arguable 3 times now, what part of that are you not coming to terms with? There's major differences, like DD on the offensive when he was "surprised"... 🙄
And DD and Punisher are close in terms of strength, Punisher seems to be a bit bigger/broader to boot. Wolverine's quite stronger than Matt. 😐

WHOA! Im pretty sure you've said that DD was considerablly stronger than Punsiher and and his strength feats are much better. Anyway they are.

Oh yeah DD pushed Wolverine and 2 hand ninjas down the stairs.

Originally posted by jinzin

Fought more than twice, and Crossbones hasn't been knocked out by a shield hit, he was one shotted by Logan, that's impressive, and at least SOME indicator of skill.

What the hell i'll give you that.

Originally posted by jinzin

And if he was, he might have been bererkered out on and beaten to a pulp like ogun was.
If's and buts.
On the other hand I'll ask again, do you think sparring has nothing to do with skill? Do you think that display was NOT a display of skill? Can you find someone else doing better?

Argh! Im not arguing that it doesnt show skill im pointing out that it doesnt make Wolverine better than DD, Cap etc.

Originally posted by jinzin

My response was what?
There's a difference between getting handled when you're trying to capture an opponent being the definitive focus of your capabilities even though it's contradicted by direct evidence multiples of times and two skilled fighters sparring eachother, supported by loads of evidence... But you don't care anything about context do ya Kotex?

You're not bringing up anything because you don't have a lick of proof to support your ass as usual. Spiderman may very well be able to dodge a bloodlusted Stick too, the difference between that hypothetical and Wolverine's feat is that Spiderman's would be against a consistency of evidence. Wolverine's isn't... but of course you wouldn't recognize that when you don't even think Wolverine's a skilled fighter to begin with? Why? Because you're a fool.

No arguing that it doesnt make him skillful. 😐

Originally posted by jinzin

There's nothing hypocritical about it. It's just you ignoring context like an idiot, like you always do.

Unless you have phantom scans of DD dodging Wolverine with a smile on his face panel after panel before he got "surprised" or DD stopped fighting for a moment when he was "surprised" Oh that's right! That didn't happen... DD was immediately kicked in the head for his surprise attack and then handled while trying to take the offensive. They're not the same and I already said SS was up for debate. You're arguing for arguments sake and losing horribly.

Look the only reason why you're starting to concede is because you got the riot act from DumbGo and people were starting to see what a hypocrite you are in both the Wolverine h2h gauntlet and Blade vs Cap thread.

Anyway, putting somebody in a full nelson doesnt mean they would have won the fight.

Originally posted by jinzin

Just in case WHAT?
No one brought up being better than Panther or Cap or anything like that, just that it IS indeed a massive display of skill. You're immediate retort was so off base that it doesn't even have a place in the same discussion. You "threw it in" because you're a fool.

Whatever you say.

Originally posted by jinzin
Okay let's try this again..... Wolverine continued to fight against Lady Deathstrike, against OMEGA F*CKING RED! And hold his own in spite of injuries, he then continued to fight Sabretooth with those same injuries AND WIN....

Er im not arguing that the HF negates apain im saying that it helps. Clearly during the fight eventhough he coped with pain, it clearly hurt more than usual.

http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=6948f_logan_strikeomega7.jpg

http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=b4f7d_logan_strikeomega4.jpg

Also when Sabretooth stabbed him in the foot Wolverine cried out in pain.

So lets see if I can get this straight Wolverine got stabbed up Shingen has been blasted at point blank with a gun and hasnt flinched all with a HF, but when he gets stabbed in the foot he cries out in agony im supposed to think that his pain tolerance is the same?

Originally posted by jinzin

Lets review... Does the HF help his pain tolerance?
NO:
Rogue has his HF it doesn't help with the pain:
Rogues body starts taking on the physical characteristics of verious people she's toched throughout the years. She formulates Wolverine's claws and tells him that it's the worst pain she's ever felt; We find that Wolverine ALWAYS has to endure unbelievable pain with his claws and his HF is always working on the cuts they make inside his arms as a result of them being sheathed.
1. http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/...lawshurthp7.jpg
2. http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...awshurt2cr6.jpg

That doesnt disprove that the HF doesnt help with the pain. Im not arguing that he doesnt feel pain with the HF im arguing that it still hurts but he deals with it better.

If you take her with and without HF and see what Rogues says then you have proof. All that proves is that she still feels pain with a HF and oh yeah if thats from Xtreme Xmen sometimes she had his Hf other times she didnt...the scans dont work.

Originally posted by jinzin

WITH OUT HIS HF HE STILL:
Even without a healing factor and inhibited by admantium posioning, Wolverine continues to struggle after being cattle prodded with enough volts to aledgedly put down an elepthant; actually it says a whole heard:
1. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5641/shockhl0.jpg
2. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8854/shock2qr3.jpg

1. Its metaphorical.
2. Im not arguing that he cant take pain resistance without his HF, obvoulsy his HF would have helped him cope with it better.

Originally posted by jinzin

And here, not only does Wolverine state his HF has no bearing on pain tolerance, he actually says it makes pain WORSE when he starts regrowing damage:

Once again, trying to insinuate you know more about Wolverine than high level Wolverine fans.
Once again.....
you're a fool..

I'm perfectly capible of being objective. It's one of the reasons I take CONTEXT into consideration. 🙂 Try it sometime.

Some people? OneDumb threw a ***** fit, and Snoop keeps reading into more arguments than I'm making... Do I need to reiderate how many people think you're a fool?

Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

P.S. Snoop is just fed up with your excuses. I mean when you come up with stuff like Wolverine grrd and thus he paused allowing Blade to hit him, you're just being completely baised and unfair. Have some shame.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no. Im just saying that I think that Wolverine cant beat Lady shiva via skill.

Pict said thats irrelevant I dont care because I just want to discuss Wolverines skill level but im well aware that Wolverine beats Lady Shiva with his claws and HF.

Nope. Im just discusiing Wolverines skill level he wins via Hf and claws.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

See? Even if your scans DON'T prove what you claim they do because the scans contradict YOU you discard them. Even though you have only ONE scan. When there are at least TWO others that also contradict you.

I can think of three off of the top of my head that contradict the way you interpret the one. So what gives you the authority to discard feats? ESPECIALLY when the way you interpret your ONE scan is contradicted by AT LEAST three?

Yeah, you're nothing but a baiting troll.

Originally posted by Creshosk

See? Even if your scans DON'T prove what you claim they do because the scans contradict YOU you discard them. Even though you have only ONE scan. When there are at least TWO others that also contradict you.

I can think of three off of the top of my head that contradict the way you interpret the one. So what gives you the authority to discard feats? ESPECIALLY when the way you interpret your ONE scan is contradicted by AT LEAST three?

Yeah, you're nothing but a baiting troll.

Look at the scans. Wolverine gets stabbed in the foot and he cries out in pain, the other scan shows him getting stabbed in the arm and clearly reacting to the pain.

With his his HF he wouldnt have flinched, he also cries out in pain when he got stabbed through the foot by Sabretooth...compare that to when he has the HF...Jesus!

You dont have any of examples of Wolverine contradicting my scans. That shows that Wolverine can take pain without his HF but it doesnt contradict that its hurts more without it. One of those scans shows him taking electrical damage hell Emma Frost has been shoccked by a bloodlusted storm and just because they can take electrical damage does not mean they can cope with edged damage more.

Again the Rogue example simply shows that she still can feel pain with the HF. If you have examples with Rogue with and without HF with the claws and you compare her reaction then you have proof, until then you're just making assumptions.

Again I could be wrong but Rogue did not even have all of Wolverines powers at the same time, but I would need to check up on that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I was talking more about your use of swearing and characterizations that both Phantomzone and I were throwing PMS/b1tch fits. Let's all just reset and be more courteous. Makes the debates and reasoning look better. Truce?

And yes, if Iron Fist were struck with a staff to the back of the head and woke up... I could see him being ok once he wakes up. But that's not the case here. He got whacked by a flying dragon. And this dragon isn't like Lockheed's size. It was the size of a big truck or something. He didn't defend himself because he was hoping the dragon would recognize him. When he wakes up in the dungeon, that's when Junzo starts throwing him around. No way are you near 100% after having just woken up from being whacked by a flying dragon. Wolverine would be a 100% because of his healing factor, not depowered Danny Rand.

And he was distraught over Misty from the beginning. He didn't know where she was, only that Junzo captured her. They even have a conversation about how Iron Fist is losing his cool the first time Junzo throws him around. Obviously, he was more distraught the second time Junzo throws him around since that is after Junzo shows him her severed arm.

I also fail to see the issue here when we have a recovering Iron Fist embarassing Wolverine on-panel. Fact is, the Junzo comparisons are not as clear cut as you'd like them to be. Heck, Luke Cage in his yellow shirt managed to actually hit Junzo. Is he now the better of both Iron Fist and Wolverine? Nah.

Now, you say that you see no problems with IF having his superior showing over Wolverine years ago. I've already stated why this is or should be up for debate here. This event took place years before Wolverine began showing serious displays of h2h skill, before the samurai was written as part of his characterization, and only a couple years after his 2nd appearance if that. It was still up in the air whether or not Wolverine was a man mutated from an actual Wolverine, he wasn't a fully developed character, nor was his skill set. Similar to Wolverine, Sabretooth was also referenced as having absolutely no skill while fighting Wolverine and the two were equated to one another by IF.
You said you wanted to be curteous to one another, and that's fine, I have no problems with that, but curteousness implies we be polite enough to answer someone's questions when they ask you something of some importance. I asked you several times in that last thread to no answer so I'll ask you again.

Wolverine was not a developed character who had no popularity in an IF comic, He faired poorly. Do you or don't you think he would have faired just as poorly half a decade to a decade later in terms of sheer skill? Do you or don't you think that Wolverine being underdeveloped in that fight played a signicicant role as to the fight's outcome?

And just to clarify, this is really the only reason why the What If example was referenced in the first place. It's the only thing that serves as a recent example of a fight between the two. It's fine that you don't hold validity to that, you don't have to, but doesn't it make you think?
Similarly, Sabretooth outfought Iron Fist when IF couldn't collect his chi adequately, IF didn't need his chi to beat Sabes the first or second time they fought when Sabretooth was an underdeveloped character with NO SKILL, after being developed into the opposite he railed through Danny... Do you or don't you think the same principle might apply with Wolverine?

Originally posted by jinzin
I'll honestly have to go back to look at how the dragon hit him as I don't remember. Again, if he was injured I would have thought that Iron Fist would have said so at some point AT ALL during the run, I don't remember him attributing ANYTHING to being weaker/wounded, etc. so I'm not entirely sure that we can say he was wounded while fighting Junzo either. I'll go back and check that out though.

I dont think he saying that hes injured hes just using common sense. IF was depowered and got hit in the head by a big dragon. common sense indicates that if he wakes up from that hes not going to be 100 percent.

Hell when Wolverine got Koed by Namor you assumed that the damage that he took previoulsy played into the fact that he got Koed. Did you need Wolverine to say anything? Hell when Wolverine got knocked out by a bullet to the head by Deadpool you said that the damage he took was a factor in him getting Koed. Did Wolverine say anything about his HF not being his best or did you deduce it?

Wow now all of a sudden IF needs to say hes not at his best for it to be true. Keep it up. 👆

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think he saying that hes injured hes just using common sense. IF was depowered and got hit in the head by a big dragon. common sense indicates that if he wakes up from that hes not going to be 100 percent.

Hell when Wolverine got Koed by Namor you assumed that the damage that he took previoulsy played into the fact that he got Koed. Did you need Wolverine to say anything? Hell when Wolverine got knocked out by a bullet to the head by Deadpool you said that the damage he took was a factor in him getting Koed. Did Wolverine say anything about his HF not being his best or did you deduce it?

Wow now all of a sudden IF needs to say hes not at his best for it to be true. Keep it up. 👆

As to DP no I didn't. I've only ever stated that all the damage he took was a display of his damage soak ability being>Bullets or superior to classic pre fatal attractions Logan. One bullet to the brain should put Logan down for a bit, regardless of previous damage taken.. Something else I've consistently stated in recent months.

You're an idiot. 😐

Jinzin, the dragon swoops down and whacks him. Simple as that. I told you Danny didn't try to defend himself, so reading rolling with the blow into the scene takes your assumptions two steps too far from the plain presentation of the comics. The comic pretty much ends with that and opens with him waking up, captured in a dungeon. Wolverine, Sabretooth, etc. would wake up without any injuries. Depowered Iron Fist with no chi reduced to a mere human? Not so much.

Wolverine suffered from having no popularity in an Iron Fist comic? Chris Claremont and John Bryne were the creators of those Iron Fist comics and they were doing that and Uncanny X-Men concurrently. The 'Phoenix Saga' was ramping up and Wolverine was being showcased in those books. If anybody were going to portray the X-Men correctly, it would be the creative team that first made Wolverine popular. Especially since Byrne was Canadian. Wolverine was not as underdeveloped as you might think and he wasn't the victim of sloppy writing. I'd take Chris Claremont/John Byrne's version of the fight over your objections any day. So no, I don't think his "underdeveloped-ness" played a significant role in the fight.

Was it a factor? Perhaps. But you believe it to be such an intrinsic factor, that you would readily dismiss the canon fight entirely. In fact, you want to dismiss it so entirely that you actually would take a non-canon What If comic as being more valid. I don't agree at all. It doesn't take me more than half a second to disagree with that conclusion. If I flipped that kind of logic on you, you'd scream bloody murder and you'd be right to. And what you're ignoring as well, was this run by Claremont and Byrne was basically the first 15 solo issues Rand ever had. And most of his better feats that are contained in the Iron Fist respect thread come from after this run from the much longer Power Man and Iron Fist run. So if you want to really play this weak "underdeveloped-ness" card, you better recognize that it applies to Iron Fist even moreso. Which pretty much makes your reasoning moot.

It definitely does not play second fiddle to a non-canon What If story. Is it the end-all be-all between the two of them? No. We both know that Wolverine's become more skilled since that fight. But so has Iron Fist. A rematch today where Iron Fist isn't recovering or depowered, would be interesting.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look at the scans. Wolverine gets stabbed in the foot and he cries out in pain, the other scan shows him getting stabbed in the arm and clearly reacting to the pain.

With his his HF he wouldnt have flinched,

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
he also cries out in pain when he got stabbed through the foot by Sabretooth...compare that to when he has the HF...Jesus!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You dont have any of examples of Wolverine contradicting my scans. That shows that Wolverine can take pain without his HF but it doesnt contradict that its hurts more without it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
One of those scans shows him taking electrical damage hell Emma Frost has been shoccked by a bloodlusted storm and just because they can take electrical damage does not mean they can cope with edged damage more.

OH RIGHT! I forgot that you were Alf, the guy who keeps consistantly getting owned in debates when it comes to anatomy because you know jack shit about ... well anything really. Go ahead and keep making stupid ass arguments. I want to see if there's a limit to your ignorance or if your the anti-einstien.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again the Rogue example simply shows that she still can feel pain with the HF. If you have examples with Rogue with and without HF with the claws and you compare her reaction then you have proof, until then you're just making assumptions.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

You don't like it you discard it, because you're nothing but a troll.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again I could be wrong but Rogue did not even have all of Wolverines powers at the same time, but I would need to check up on that.

If anything the example you posted should be discarded as stupid because that was NOT the first time he'd been depowered... I seem to recall him being around leech and getting his powers removed by Wipeout back in the late 70s and early 80s. Hell, when he had his powers wiped out and was laying there bleeding to death he'd know... but the writer didn't do the research and wrote something that ignored the characters history. So guess what? That can be written off under the forum rules under the No PIS rule. That is if we're to discard any feats.