Lady Shiva vs Wolverine

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

P.S. Snoop is just fed up with your excuses. I mean when you come up with stuff like Wolverine grrd and thus he paused allowing Blade to hit him, you're just being completely baised and unfair. Have some shame.

Pain Tolerance is: The attribute of being able to cope with pain and function in spite of it...

That's exactly what Logan exibited in your scans. He got stabbed in the foot and cut the rope dropping Deathstrike. He got cut in the face, and kicked her 10 feet back. He's displaying pain tolerance right there...

What happened after that was a mix of Adamantium poisoning, death spores, and blood loss all at work and he STILL fights and beats Sabretooth later on...
Those scans don't support you, they contradict you.

Dismissing that last scan completely just proves to me exactly what you'll do to disard everything Logan does that's impressive... ANYTHING.
Instead of arguing around the subject you've reverted to straight up ignoring it. So be it. If you're going to ignore evidence please stop responding to my posts. It's annoying as hell.

P.S. Wolverine's claws come out at 130-160 miles an hour, he moves/reacts at the speed of thought, figure it out for yourself.

Originally posted by jinzin
Difference between a guy who can roll with class 100 punches getting hit by a giant lizard and a guy getting incinerated to the skeleton, his deminishment being referenced in print on panel afterwards. Stop playing dumb troll.

Well let let see he already told you he didn't roll with it because he thought the dragon was friendly, fail.

Originally posted by jinzin

As to DP no I didn't.

*sigh* Yeah you did.

Originally posted by jinzin
DP has an HF, Wolverine took tons of damage already, and Wolverine had multiples of oppurtunities to take DP down.

Originally posted by jinzin

I've only ever stated that all the damage he took was a display of his damage soak ability being>Bullets or superior to classic pre fatal attractions Logan. One bullet to the brain should put Logan down for a bit, regardless of previous damage taken.. Something else I've consistently stated in recent months.

You're an idiot. 😐

Yeah ok lets recap. First of all you tried to twist things around by saying that IF wasnt injured because he didnt say he was, when you have deduced that Wolverine HF was depleted without him saying so.

You stated that you didnt mention that the damage he had already taken was a factor in him getting Koed with DP when you did and even if you didnt you blantantly said this was a factor when Wolverine fought Namor in the Civil War.

Now you're trying to twist things around by saying that IF rolled with it....keep on stretching.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You really have no proof of that. him flinching to pain or not is no indication of how much pain he feels. A high pain threshhold does NOT mean that you DON'T feel the pain, it means you can bear with it more.

Yes I know and you havent proven anything.

Originally posted by Creshosk

He's grunted in pain when getting stabbed when he has the healing factor plenty of times. You have ANY scans that ACTUALLY support your claims or is this just more of your asshated idiotic trolling? He doesn't say "Oh if I had my healing factor I wouldn't be feeling this." Obviously when he's fully healed up again he'll only be feeling the terrible pain from fighting off the adamantium poisoning and getting sliced on those razor sharp blades embedded in his arms. But it doesn't cut down on how much pain he feels. The only thing that contradicts ALL of the scans is your idiotic claims and veiws.

LOL grunting in pain is the same as crying out in pain???? LOL clearly if you cry out in pain its more painful.

Originally posted by Creshosk

It doesn't prove that it hurts more without it.

Because both are two different types of pain.. one is an chemica;l-electrical signal traveling along your nervous system the other is a chemical-electrical signal traveling along your nervous system.

OH RIGHT! I forgot that you were Alf, the guy who keeps consistantly getting owned in debates when it comes to anatomy because you know jack shit about ... well anything really. Go ahead and keep making stupid ass arguments. I want to see if there's a limit to your ignorance or if your the anti-einstien.

No, YOU are the one making ASS-U-mptions. We're the ones that are reading what is ON PANEL.. you however if you don't like it or if it contradcits you making an ass out of yourself... and by that I mean assumptions, then you discard it see?:

You don't like it you discard it, because you're nothing but a troll.

See? You're the one who isn't satisfied with what's ON PANEL and making assumptions about things, and if you don't like it, you give it the boot. EVEN when its consistent with everything but your own ass hatted assumptions.

If anything the example you posted should be discarded as stupid because that was NOT the first time he'd been depowered... I seem to recall him being around leech and getting his powers removed by Wipeout back in the late 70s and early 80s. Hell, when he had his powers wiped out and was laying there bleeding to death he'd know... but the writer didn't do the research and wrote something that ignored the characters history. So guess what? That can be written off under the forum rules under the No PIS rule. That is if we're to discard any feats.

I can be assed you clearly are not listening.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not going to continue to argue the same points over and over with you, the whole reason you replied was to discredit Logan's skill, and you did a piss poor job. When it comes to Wolverine's healing factor.
It doesn't help with the pain, Wolverine has flat out said this on at least half a dozen occasions.

Pain Tolerance is: The attribute of being able to cope with pain and function in spite of it...

That's exactly what Logan exibited in your scans. He got stabbed in the foot and cut the rope dropping Deathstrike. He got cut in the face, and kicked her 10 feet back. He's displaying pain tolerance right there...

What happened after that was a mix of Adamantium poisoning, death spores, and blood loss all at work and he STILL fights and beats Sabretooth later on...
Those scans don't support you, they contradict you.

Dismissing that last scan completely just proves to me exactly what you'll do to disard everything Logan does that's impressive... ANYTHING.
Instead of arguing around the subject you've reverted to straight up ignoring it. So be it. If you're going to ignore evidence please stop responding to my posts. It's annoying as hell.

P.S. Wolverine's claws come out at 130-160 miles an hour, he moves/reacts at the speed of thought, figure it out for yourself.

* shrug* You're not listening but I think ive had enough I'll just watch you twist things around with DumbGo then.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well let let see he already told you he didn't roll with it because he thought the dragon was friendly, fail.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* Yeah you did.

😐
That has nothing to do with him going down to the bullet and everything to do with DP getting him in position for the bullet to work.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah ok lets recap. First of all you tried to twist things around by saying that IF wasnt injured because he didnt say he was, when you have deduced that Wolverine HF was depleted without him saying so.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You stated that you didnt mention that the damage he had already taken was a factor in him getting Koed with DP when you did and even if you didnt you blantantly said this was a factor when Wolverine fought Namor in the Civil War.

With Civil War.. it WAS stated. 😐

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now you're trying to twist things around by saying that IF rolled with it....keep on stretching.

Originally posted by jinzin
As I stated I'll take another look.

You do that.

Originally posted by jinzin

😐
That has nothing to do with him going down to the bullet and everything to do with DP getting him in position for the bullet to work.

*sigh* You stated there he had already been damaged thus implying that was a reason why he got Koed by the bullet.

Originally posted by jinzin

I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to you: HE DID SAY SO.

Im not talking about civil war in this example.

Originally posted by jinzin

No I didn't. you just suck at reading comprehension.

With Civil War.. it WAS stated. 😐

Wasnt stated in the DP example and you implied that the damage he took previoulsy affect him getting Koed.

Originally posted by jinzin

I didn't even say that he did roll with it, I said that there's a difference between a guy who can do something like that getting hit and someone being incinerated to a skeleton. how do you not see that?

Obvoulsy the statement implies that you were saying he rolled with it, DumbGo got that impression as well. Don't try to twist stuff around.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well let let see he already told you he didn't roll with it because he thought the dragon was friendly, fail.

*sigh* Yeah you did.

Yeah ok lets recap. First of all you tried to twist things around by saying that IF wasnt injured because he didnt say he was, when you have deduced that Wolverine HF was depleted without him saying so.

You stated that you didnt mention that the damage he had already taken was a factor in him getting Koed with DP when you did and even if you didnt you blantantly said this was a factor when Wolverine fought Namor in the Civil War.

Now you're trying to twist things around by saying that IF rolled with it....keep on stretching.

Yes I know and you havent proven anything.

LOL grunting in pain is the same as crying out in pain???? LOL clearly if you cry out in pain its more painful.

I can be assed you clearly are not listening.

* shrug* You're not listening but I think ive had enough I'll just watch you twist things around with DumbGo then.

You've failed to prove anything, you've failed to listen, and the only thing you've succeeded at is trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Of course I'm not going to listen to bullshit lies and trolling. Looks like you're not going to even try and debate.

You've failed to prove anything, you've failed to listen, and the only thing you've succeeded at is trolling.

Ok lets try this again......whos more likely to be feeling more pain the person grunting or the person crying out in pain?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You do that.

*sigh* You stated there he had already been damaged thus implying that was a reason why he got Koed by the bullet.

Im not talking about civil war in this example.

Wasnt stated in the DP example and you implied that the damage he took previoulsy affect him getting Koed.

Obvoulsy the statement implies that you were saying he rolled with it, DumbGo got that impression as well. Don't try to twist stuff around.

Oh, and don't accuse Jinzin of being a hypocrite, that makes you an even bigger hypocrite since you're a hypocrite for twisting stuff around (probebly sue to PIS poor reading comprehension) and then telling others not to.

So you going to debate some time today or just troll?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok lets try this again......whos more likely to be feeling more pain the person grunting or the person crying out in pain?

Wow that was easy. Look, that's the problem with your logic. Right there.

http://skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html

This is where I call you a name to insult you, you sigh and then leave the thread thereby stopping your trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
False dilemma fallacy.

Wow that was easy. Look, that's the problem with your logic. Right there.

http://skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html

This is where I call you a name to insult you, you sigh and then leave the thread thereby stopping your trolling.

*sigh* I know what you would have said anyway, you would have just found some exceptions were it did not apply.

👆

I'd like to point out that Wolverine likely feels more pain than most streets BECAUSE of his healing factor. All the street level MA's would have gone through the process of deadening the nerves in the areas of their bodies used for striking, something that Wolverine's healing factor prevents. He might feel the damage for less time, but he almost certainly feels more of it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* I know what you would have said anyway, you would have just found some exceptions were it did not apply.

👆

A person with a low pain threshold, some one whom cannot take much pain, is more likely to cry out to lower levels of pain.
A person with a higher paing threshold, someone whom can take alot of pain, is more likely to cry out at higher levels of pain.

The amount of pain felt has no bearing on how much pain a person can take. A seasoned soldier might take a bullet and just grunt. A spoiled rich girl might break a nail and cry out.

Which do you think hurts more? Chipping a nail or being shot? Now imagine that spoiled rich girl being shot, and the seasoned soldier chipping a nail.

How do you think they'll react? I imagine that they feel the same amount of pain from being shot and the same amount of pain from chipping a nail.

Reactions do NOT indicate how much pain you feel. Hell lets look at emotional pain. In our society these days boys toughen themselves up and learn not to cry. Whom is more likely to dry when a loved one dies? The grown man or the grown woman?

Does this mean that the grown man is NOT feeling as much pain, simply because the woman is allowed to cry?

If you say yes, then not only are you an idiot but you're also an insensitive prick.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd like to point out that Wolverine likely feels more pain than most streets BECAUSE of his healing factor. All the street level MA's would have gone through the process of deadening the nerves in the areas of their bodies used for striking, something that Wolverine's healing factor prevents. He might feel the damage for less time, but he almost certainly feels more of it.

Im still wondering why Wolverine cried out in pain. There are two examples of him doing this, and another examples where LD stabs him in the arm and you can clearly see from the reaction on his face that it hurt more than normal.

Compare that to how he dealt with shingens sword strikes and when Crossbones unloaded a clip into him. Logically it might hurt more but the evidence does not prove it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im still wondering why Wolverine cried out in pain. There are two examples of him doing this, and another examples where LD stabs him in the arm and you can clearly see from the reaction on his face that it hurt more than normal.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Compare that to how he dealt with shingens sword strikes and when Crossbones unloaded a clip into him. Logically it might hurt more but the evidence does not prove it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im still wondering why Wolverine cried out in pain. There are two examples of him doing this, and another examples where LD stabs him in the arm and you can clearly see from the reaction on his face that it hurt more than normal.

Compare that to how he dealt with shingens sword strikes and when Crossbones unloaded a clip into him. Logically it might hurt more but the evidence does not prove it.

When she stabbed him in the foot and he said ARGH? 😕

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You are reading into things far to much. I've said "argh" when I've stubbed my toe... it doesn't mean it hurt that much. Cyring out in pain, and making a noise, aren't exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Okay... I'm trying really hard not to insult you. But a person's reaction does not indicate how much pain they feel.

A person with a low pain threshold, some one whom cannot take much pain, is more likely to cry out to lower levels of pain.
A person with a higher paing threshold, someone whom can take alot of pain, is more likely to cry out at higher levels of pain.

The amount of pain felt has no bearing on how much pain a person can take. A seasoned soldier might take a bullet and just grunt. A spoiled rich girl might break a nail and cry out.

Which do you think hurts more? Chipping a nail or being shot? Now imagine that spoiled rich girl being shot, and the seasoned soldier chipping a nail.

How do you think they'll react? I imagine that they feel the same amount of pain from being shot and the same amount of pain from chipping a nail.

A seasoned soldier would still cry out at highier levels of pain it would just take more. That contradicts nothing I said.

Originally posted by Creshosk

Reactions do NOT indicate how much pain you feel. Hell lets look at emotional pain. In our society these days boys toughen themselves up and learn not to cry. Whom is more likely to dry when a loved one dies? The grown man or the grown woman?

Does this mean that the grown man is NOT feeling as much pain, simply because the woman is allowed to cry?

If you say yes, then not only are you an idiot but you're also an insensitive prick.

Nope, but that still doesnt change the fact that if he got hurt and he cried out in pain it would be an indication of the level of suffering he is experiencing and the fact that bereavement doesn't make him cry is irrelevant.

Wolverine was crying out in pain without his HF, when he has his HF he reacts better to it. Wolverine was in more pain without his HF.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When she stabbed him in the foot and he said ARGH? 😕

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You are reading into things far to much. I've said "argh" when I've stubbed my toe... it doesn't mean it hurt that much. Cyring out in pain, and making a noise, aren't exactly the same thing.

Punch a spoiled brat in the face, they'll whine and cry about it.
Punch a seasoned soldier in the face and ... they'll probably beat the shit out of you.

Does it mean that the spoiled brat felt more pain than the soldier?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, the dragon swoops down and whacks him. Simple as that. I told you Danny didn't try to defend himself, so reading rolling with the blow into the scene takes your assumptions two steps too far from the plain presentation of the comics. The comic pretty much ends with that and opens with him waking up, captured in a dungeon. Wolverine, Sabretooth, etc. would wake up without any injuries. Depowered Iron Fist with no chi reduced to a mere human? Not so much.

Wolverine suffered from having no popularity in an Iron Fist comic? Chris Claremont and John Bryne were the creators of those Iron Fist comics and they were doing that and Uncanny X-Men concurrently. The 'Phoenix Saga' was ramping up and Wolverine was being showcased in those books. If anybody were going to portray the X-Men correctly, it would be the creative team that first made Wolverine popular. Especially since Byrne was Canadian. Wolverine was not as underdeveloped as you might think and he wasn't the victim of sloppy writing. I'd take Chris Claremont/John Byrne's version of the fight over your objections any day. So no, I don't think his "underdeveloped-ness" played a significant role in the fight.

Was it a factor? Perhaps. But you believe it to be such an intrinsic factor, that you would readily dismiss the canon fight entirely. In fact, you want to dismiss it so entirely that you actually would take a non-canon What If comic as being more valid. I don't agree at all. It doesn't take me more than half a second to disagree with that conclusion. If I flipped that kind of logic on you, you'd scream bloody murder and you'd be right to. And what you're ignoring as well, was this run by Claremont and Byrne was basically the first 15 solo issues Rand ever had. And most of his better feats that are contained in the Iron Fist respect thread come from after this run from the much longer Power Man and Iron Fist run. So if you want to really play this weak "underdeveloped-ness" card, you better recognize that it applies to Iron Fist even moreso. Which pretty much makes your reasoning moot.

It definitely does not play second fiddle to a non-canon What If story. Is it the end-all be-all between the two of them? No. We both know that Wolverine's become more skilled since that fight. But so has Iron Fist. A rematch today where Iron Fist isn't recovering or depowered, would be interesting.

I'm not discarding the fight though. 😕
I've never once regarded it as PIS, nor have I refuted that Wolverine was handled in that fight to a fair degree.
I simply don't think that it proves: Wolverine has no/little fighting skill or:
Iron Fist> Wolverine to a legitimate degree.

Iron Fist was better than Wolverine THAT DAY in THAT FIGHT. I think that's perfectly acceptable.
Inclusive of Wolverine's and IF's entire history, Iron Fist is a good enough fighter to keep Wolverine at bay for a bit as evidenced by his ability to stalemate DD and keep pace with Cap for a few.
But that fight ALSO isn't the deciding factor on Wolverine's skill when it doesn't come close to representing his standard majority nevermind his high end feats.
Since then, Wolverine has beaten those as skilled as Iron Fist, more skilled than Iron Fist and everything in between.
It simply stands to reason that the fight holds little validity over fleshed out versions of the characters. Otherwise Sabretooth would be a character who has NO skill.
We know that's not the case these days.

If you think that underdevelopment had nothing to do with the fight, that's your perogative, but I personally think you have to be under some fairly decent bit of denial to really believe that. And don't confuse points here, high feats and low feats for Fist are next to irrelivent for that fight, what's important is characterization...

By issue 15 Iron Fists skills were set, his powers were set, his history was explored to a degree. The whole point behind his character was to have him be that of a skilled fighter.
Wolverine on the other hand: His powers were not set, his skill not explored, his history completely unknown. The whole point of his character was to be small, fast, and ferocious.

As for character conception: Byrne has stated that had he kept writing Wolverine, Logan'd been as strong and fast as Spiderman, and mutated into a human from an actual Wolverine.
Claremont didn't like Wolverine when he started writing him, it's the whole reason why Claremont began the conception of turning Wolverine into a samurai spirited warrior to begin with.

Taking their version of the fight is one thing, and hell, I don't even have a problem with that, I didn't ignore what took place during the fight. But what about characterizations?... I would hope my opinion concerning such would be more valid than theirs was at that point given that I have 30 decades of information over their interpretation who was still yet to debut a history, a healing factor, and was intended to be Sabretooth's son.

Wolverine fought with more skill after that fight, he's fought with more skill in retcons before that fight (both after his character developed) the fights stands as a little hiccup in his long running history of owning asses but it's not indicative of his skill as we know it today. 😬

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
A seasoned soldier would still cry out at highier levels of pain it would just take more. That contradicts nothing I said.

Nope, but that still doesnt change the fact that if he got hurt and he cried out in pain it would be an indication of the level of suffering he is experiencing

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and the fact that bereavement doesn't make him cry is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine was crying out in pain without his HF, when he has his HF he reacts better to it. Wolverine was in more pain without his HF.

The way a person reacts does NOT indicate the amount of pain they're in, you're a gullible idiot if you truly believe that.

Now we get another English lesson, its called "milking it". Often times a person, more than likely a child, will "milk" an event that caused them pain, because of the attention that they received. Sometimes people will pretend to be in pain and react like they are in order to prolong the reaction they get from their acting. So while a perfectly healthy person might be feeling no pain whatsoever they might act like they're in excruciating agony.

The moral of the story? How a person reacts is NOT an indicator of how much pain they feel.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When she stabbed him in the foot and he said ARGH? 😕

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You are reading into things far to much. I've said "argh" when I've stubbed my toe... it doesn't mean it hurt that much. Cyring out in pain, and making a noise, aren't exactly the same thing.

Ok lets say you had a HF you stubbed your toe and you didnt say argh and then I take it away and you do? What am I supposed to think, im obvoulsy going to think it hurts more.

A person may cry out in pain but not be in that much pain but it still and indication of pain. If he takes worse damage than that with his HF and doesnt even flinch he clearly is able to cope with the pain better.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
A seasoned soldier would still cry out at highier levels of pain it would just take more. That contradicts nothing I said.

Nope, but that still doesnt change the fact that if he got hurt and he cried out in pain it would be an indication of the level of suffering he is experiencing and the fact that bereavement doesn't make him cry is irrelevant.

Wolverine was crying out in pain without his HF, when he has his HF he reacts better to it. Wolverine was in more pain without his HF.

Once again...

Because he said "ARGH"?