Originally posted by Juk3n
If on-panel battles always went the way they REALLY should it would be a boring ass Universe don't you think?Are you seriously [B]SERIOUSLY
in a serious straite faced way telling me that, Namor's class +100 strength could not hold the Wolverines arms at bay rending him completely harmless?and i want to be clear here, you think that a mutant with 1 maybe 2 tonne at a stretch lifting strength is breaking his wrists free from the grip of a class 100? i dont.
Wolve and tooth get manhandled. imo
Does any of what ive just said really sound that farfetched?
Breaking the grip of someone 100 times your strength superior - like i said if all on-panel fight went exactly the way they SHOULD it would be very boring. [/B]
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Namor or Thing grabbing Wolverine by the wrists with out losing a limb is about as likely as me catching an spinning airplane propeller without losing my hands and it completely tearing me to shreads.
Could Namor hold Wolverine in place if he managed to grab both his arms? Sure... but the chances of him catching Wolverine by the wrist with having his arm lopped off at the elbow is pretty slim.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
yes but why does anyone assume thing will be able to get his hands on the faster, more experiences, far better trained and skilled fighter?
😐
Your not giving Ben much love there, Wolverine has been touched by much slower, less experienced, skilled and trained opponents than Ol' blue eyes. And with current Wolverines HF being cut back considerably, he better not get let either Ben nor Namor get in anything worth while because it will most definitely be lights out. Sabertooth IMO can do less damage than Logan can to these two. I think Ben will have a new fur rug and Namor a pet while landside. I'll let you pick who gets whom.
Team 2 9/10
Originally posted by The IlluminatiNot just touched, grabbed, as in grabbing the wrist, a really small target, two of them, you grab his one wrist, he cuts off your arm.
😐Your not giving Ben much love there, Wolverine has been touched by much slower, less experienced, skilled and trained opponents than Ol' blue eyes. And with current Wolverines HF being cut back considerably, he better not get let either Ben nor Namor get in anything worth while because it will most definitely be lights out. Sabertooth IMO can do less damage than Logan can to these two. I think Ben will have a new fur rug and Namor a pet while landside. I'll let you pick who gets whom.
Team 2 9/10
Those scans seem selective to say the least. They either cut off mid-fight or in some cases even show a draw.
Also, to call that time Wolverine dropped Namor for like 5 seconds a TKO is a bit much. In that case frigging Marrow has a TKO win over Wolverine because he was f'ed up for a lot longer. And so he forced Namor into a pool, so what? Namor used the enviroment to his advantage and knocked Logan silly in that fight. Hell Namor didnt even want to fight.
Moving on, I think Thing has a much better shot against Sabretooth than he does against Wolverine. For a guy whos supposed to be pretty much on par with Wolverine in the H2H department, Creed sure doesnt show it a lot. I can see Thing taking him out.
Originally posted by redhotrash
Those scans seem selective to say the least. They either cut off mid-fight or in some cases even show a draw.
Also, to call that time Wolverine dropped Namor for like 5 seconds a TKO is a bit much. In that case frigging Marrow has a TKO win over Wolverine because he was f'ed up for a lot longer. And so he forced Namor into a pool, so what? Namor used the enviroment to his advantage and knocked Logan silly in that fight. Hell Namor didnt even want to fight.
Moving on, I think Thing has a much better shot against Sabretooth than he does against Wolverine. For a guy whos supposed to be pretty much on par with Wolverine in the H2H department, Creed sure doesnt show it a lot. I can see Thing taking him out.
The scans being selective was part of the point. The scans point out the inprobability of grabbing a guy like Wolverine by the wrists. Wolverine has a 100% consistency of NOT being grabbed by the wrists, and being able to take fights to both Thing and Namor. And win them.
Marrow was able to jab a bone in Logan's throat yes, Logan went down for a few moments yes, but that wasn't during a fight was it? With Namor it WAS, Wolverine dropped Namor, Wolverine could have finished him easily. Had Wolverine been bloodlusted, had Namor's guards not been there to distract Wolverine, Namor would be dead.
Namor wasn't saved by his fighting ability, he wasn't able to heal faster than Logan could dish out damage, he wasn't uneffected.. He was saved by his imperial guard. Without whom he would not have pulled an advantage.
The reference to Namor's mini is simply because someone felt that Namor's been uneffected when stabbed. That's not the case as evidenced by Namor retreating into a pool.
So what you ask?
So he wasn't effected, he had to retreat to heal, that's the point.
And just for reference, Wolverine didn't want to fight, Namor obviously wanted to fight more than Wolverine since he threw the first punch. 😐
Creed isn't on par with Logan in h2h, he's slightly behind. That's one of the only reasons Wolverine manages to last as long against Creed as he does. Thing would still lose to him though.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Tossing it out simply because its a what if is illogical. Tossing something out purely for the source is the "poisoning the wells" fallacy.
Only problem with this, Cresh, is that using this logic we could then use every portrayal of a character to use in debate. For example, I tried using the instance of Spider-Man temporarily defeating Wolverine (Wolverine only won in the end because of a teleportation technology he had going for him) in a What-If issue as evidence to what the real Spidey could do to the real Wolverine, only to have it bashed by the Wolverine supporters because it was a What-If.
Point is, it's purely natural for all of us to want to pick and choose what instances we use. We all say that we're unbiased and fair, but we can't help but want to use any positive evidence that we can to further our debate.
Originally posted by MetalmanxEquivocation much?
Only problem with this, Cresh, is that using this logic we could then use every portrayal of a character to use in debate.
You could always discard a feat because its illogical rather than discarding a feat because of the source.
Bush is generally perceived to be an idiot. But if he says the sky is blue, you can't say that its wrong simply because it was said by an idiot.
Originally posted by MetalmanxI'm sorry I don't recall that issue, so I can't tell you if there was a problem with it.
For example, I tried using the instance of Spider-Man temporarily defeating Wolverine (Wolverine only won in the end because of a teleportation technology he had going for him) in a What-If issue as evidence to what the real Spidey could do to the real Wolverine, only to have it bashed by the Wolverine supporters because it was a What-If.
Originally posted by MetalmanxAnd if something doesn't logically fit that's when you have to question it. we discard 616 evidence because its illogical.
Point is, it's purely natural for all of us to want to pick and choose what instances we use. We all say that we're unbiased and fair, but we can't help but want to use any positive evidence that we can to further our debate.
Wolverine taking that "napalm" with his pants intact and just fine afterwards is inconsistant. Wolverine climbing out of a at of molten steel and walking away is illogical as "how did he move" even if he could survive it.
We don't discard it because it came from such and such a book.
In this case calling out "That's a what if" makes no logical sense because we've seen that Namor's skin can be penetrated as shown on other occasions. What's illogical about the showing other than it didn't happen in the 616 timeline?
Are you saying his chin CAN'T be penetrated because its too tough despite his other skin being punctured? Are you saying he'd be able to take it just fine?
Sorry... poisoning the wells falacy still stands. and your equivocation doesn't fly.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
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Namor or Thing grabbing Wolverine by the wrists with out losing a limb is about as likely as me catching an spinning airplane propeller without losing my hands and it completely tearing me to shreads.
Could Namor hold Wolverine in place if he managed to grab both his arms? Sure... but the chances of him catching Wolverine by the wrist with having his arm lopped off at the elbow is pretty slim.
Not a very good analogy, srank. An airplane propeller is all blade, while Wolvie's arms/wrists only have the blades at the ends. It would just be a dumb move in general.
Also, the analogy is faulty because Thing and Namor also have superhuman durability. So they actually could catch a spinning airplane propeller, or possibly Wolverine's wrists.
Especially Namor. Isn't this the same guy that catches super-fast missiles out of the air like it's his job?
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=010catchesmissilestta10on7.jpg
Now, I won't argue that it hasn't happened the way you describe it. Because well, it does. Against Namor, Wolverine's usually been shown to have the upper hand. My only beef is that it goes against Namor's confirmed abilities, and that's what gets to me.
Why he wouldn't be able to dodge Wolvie's claws is really beyond me, as he's able to dodge things traveling at Mach/sonic speeds.
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0112dodgessonarcannonimop2.jpg
Snatching an already-fired harpoon out of the air only inches from impaling Cap:
http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=022catchesaharpooncasolhp0.jpg
Able to tag Whizzer with apparent ease on two different ocassions:
http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=023vswhizzerdfv1013fs8.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=024vswhizzeravv1115sl0.jpg
And then there was the recent fight in which Namor WTF-pwns Wolverine, even after Wolvie sucker-punched him:
But, whatever. It's pretty pointless most of the time trying to debate these kinds of things against Wolverine.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Equivocation much?You could always discard a feat because its illogical rather than discarding a feat because of the source.
Bush is generally perceived to be an idiot. But if he says the sky is blue, you can't say that its wrong simply because it was said by an idiot.
I'm sorry I don't recall that issue, so I can't tell you if there was a problem with it.
And if something doesn't logically fit that's when you have to question it. we discard 616 evidence because its illogical.
Wolverine taking that "napalm" with his pants intact and just fine afterwards is inconsistant. Wolverine climbing out of a at of molten steel and walking away is illogical as "how did he move" even if he could survive it.
We don't discard it because it came from such and such a book.
In this case calling out "That's a what if" makes no logical sense because we've seen that Namor's skin can be penetrated as shown on other occasions. What's illogical about the showing other than it didn't happen in the 616 timeline?
Are you saying his chin CAN'T be penetrated because its too tough despite his other skin being punctured? Are you saying he'd be able to take it just fine?
Sorry... poisoning the wells falacy still stands. and your equivocation doesn't fly.
I'm confused here. I wasn't arguing for Wolverine nor Namor when I posted this. I was only merely trying to point out something that doesn't seem to work here on KMC. It doesn't matter how logical an instance is, if it is a What-If it always gets thrown out by debators. Believe me, I tried.
You and I are in the same boat, Cresh. I, too, am all for throwing extremely illogical instances even when they're 616. But I'm also all for using credible, logical instances in What-Ifs, too.
I wasn't arguing that Namor can't be cut. I know he can. It's been done numerous times. I think you're getting my post confused with someone else's. So, in short, I'm not really sure why you're arguing with me. 😬
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Not a very good analogy, srank. An airplane propeller is all blade, while Wolvie's arms/wrists only have the blades at the ends. It would just be a dumb move in general.Also, the analogy is faulty because Thing and Namor also have superhuman durability. So they actually could catch a spinning airplane propeller, or possibly Wolverine's wrists.
Especially Namor. Isn't this the same guy that catches super-fast missiles out of the air like it's his job?
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=010catchesmissilestta10on7.jpgNow, I won't argue that it hasn't happened the way you describe it. Because well, it does. Against Namor, Wolverine's usually been shown to have the upper hand. My only beef is that it goes against Namor's confirmed abilities, and that's what gets to me.
Why he wouldn't be able to dodge Wolvie's claws is really beyond me, as he's able to dodge things traveling at Mach/sonic speeds.
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0112dodgessonarcannonimop2.jpgSnatching an already-fired harpoon out of the air only inches from impaling Cap:
http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=022catchesaharpooncasolhp0.jpgAble to tag Whizzer with apparent ease on two different ocassions:
http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=023vswhizzerdfv1013fs8.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=024vswhizzeravv1115sl0.jpgAnd then there was the recent fight in which Namor WTF-pwns Wolverine, even after Wolvie sucker-punched him:
Catching a rocket out of the air, or a harpoon, dodging a beam.. this is all standard stuff for even some of the most basic street level feats. They're all able to deal with that kind od thing accordingly.
Wolverine's knocked multiple rockets, and rockets powered darts out of the air at once, I wouldn't call him too fast for Namor to touch.
At no point as Namor's implied capabilities or on panel showings dictated that he should be able to grab Wolverine's wrist with no trouble, nothing about his "confrimed capabilities" suggests otherwise.
There's a reason why Captain America gives him massive issues every time they engage eathother and it's not because he's too fast for Cap. 😕
As for the recent fight. Namor threw the first sucker punch. Wolverine went *** for tat and Namor had to retreat to water. Had the water not been there to run to Namor wouldn't have faired anywhere NEAR as well as evidenced by every fight they've had before that. 😐
Originally posted by jinzin
Catching a rocket out of the air, or a harpoon, dodging a beam.. this is all standard stuff for even some of the most basic street level feats. They're all able to deal with that kind od thing accordingly.
Wolverine's knocked multiple rockets, and rockets powered darts out of the air at once, I wouldn't call him too fast for Namor to touch.At no point as Namor's implied capabilities or on panel showings dictated that he should be able to grab Wolverine's wrist with no trouble, nothing about his "confrimed capabilities" suggests otherwise.
There's a reason why Captain America gives him massive issues every time they engage eathother and it's not because he's too fast for Cap. 😕As for the recent fight. Namor threw the first sucker punch. Wolverine went *** for tat and Namor [B]had
to retreat to water. Had the water not been there to run to Namor wouldn't have faired anywhere NEAR as well as evidenced by every fight they've had before that. 😐 [/B]
I seriously doubt he had to "retreat" to water, if you had that power wouldn't you want to be at your fullest potential? I think he just wanted to be fully powered when he kicked wolverines ass.... 😉
Originally posted by TheBigBoss
I seriously doubt he had to "retreat" to water, if you had that power wouldn't you want to be at your fullest potential? I think he just wanted to be fully powered when he kicked wolverines ass.... 😉
Which is why he was lutching his chest.
I mean we all know Namor's not a warrior king and always looks for loopholes to beat his opponents.
Not like Wolverine's put him down with stabs two times before.. of course he didn't have to retreat to water. 🙄
Originally posted by jinzin
Which is why he was lutching his chest.I mean we all know Namor's not a warrior king and always looks for loopholes to beat his opponents.
Not like Wolverine's put him down with stabs two times before.. of course he didn't have to retreat to water. 🙄
He wasn't retreating he was keeping his distance 😠
😂 now you're just making shit up. The pool was a good 10 to 20 feet away. There was NO casual walking to the pool. He dove in.
With Wolverine being launched through the air from one side of the school to the other with the punch before he got stabbed to Wolverine being barely embeded in a brick wall that was 2 feet behind him AFTER being stabbed, it's pretty obvious why.
