PR Beyonder VS LT

Originally posted by King Kandy

He was equal to TOAA
in the sense that they both would have had absolutely infinite
and uncontested powers within the multiverse.

He was the most powerful character ever developed by TOAA,
right along with THOTI's scale of power.

Originally posted by King Kandy

BTW, I don't agree with the statement that he was in any sense equal to TOAA, just wanted to clarify it.

Ever since we understood
that the TOAA are two characters that make up and draw everything we read on panel,
it is logical and factual to understand that TOAA simply can not be challenged.

It's not a question of feats or scale of power,
it's simply that what TOAA is, can not be challenged for said reasons.

The creator of the Beyonder & both Secret Wars series was Jim Shooter,
hence though it was not mentioned , by default,
Shooter (the writer) and Al Milgrom (the artist) were TOAA.

Oh .. and Beyonder annihilates the LT effortlessly.

Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Imo he was so powerful they had to retcon him.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion.

Everything Beyonder did,
everything Beyonder was before he was retconned, was legit.

Originally posted by Galan007

that was the opinion of pretty much everyone on marvel's payroll (beside shooter, obviously).
such ridicule is why beyonder was ultimately retconned.

... G, that was the reasoning behind DeFalco's retcon of the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What are you talking about? ... This must be sarcasm.

Everything Beyonder did,
everything Beyonder was before he was retconned, was legit.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion.

It baffles me how pre and post retcon Beyonder are treated as separate characters... There are NO other characters who have this kind of duality applied to them.

Originally posted by King Kandy

No, the very fact that it was retconned in fact proves that it is not legit.

Btw. You do know that Post-Beyonder
still did erase 616 Death from the Universe right? (pre-retcon it was Multi-Death)

As well as giving Rachel the Full power of the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx

Hence the PRE in Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

Remember when you pointed out that Here Comes Tomorrow might be non-canon? I guess people could have just said they were talking about "pre-retcon" Jean and avoid any such argument. Does canon even matter anymore?

Originally posted by King Kandy

It baffles me how pre and post retcon Beyonder are treated as separate characters...
There are NO other characters who have this kind of duality applied to them.

MOST of what Beyonder did, is still credited even to his Post-Retcon version.

We know it's the same character
cause the original Secret Wars still affects characters today,
as in, maany stories were developed because of Secret Wars, (Web of Spiderman amongst others)
and other characters originated from the Secret Wars. (like Titania and Volcana)

Pre-retcon Brothers ... PR Owen Reece amongst others.
...Pre-Crisis Super Man and a whole bunch of Pre-Crisis DC cats.

There's a difference... PC Superman actually existed, he was just erased in the crisis... he wasn't retconned into not having been around in the first place. He's distinct from current Superman. Beyonder is the same character but for some reason PR Beyonder is still treated as different.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Remember when you pointed out that Here Comes Tomorrow might be non-canon?
I guess people could have just said they were talking about "pre-retcon" Jean
and avoid any such argument.

HCT comes is in direct opposing contact when 616 Jean's history
withIN arcs that are recognized in her bio.

Also, the story is thrown out of nowhere into an alternate future,
which, is what I believe it truly was, an alternate version of 616 Jean.

Jean died at the hands of Xorn, the Force was shattered by Xorn, (all within 616)
the Force returned to the WHR to heal, and Jean was buried,
then, the Force was ripped back to reality by the Shiar,
then in 616 the Force resurrected Jean who was in a grave which took place in Endsong,
then at the end of Endsong the Force merged with Jean fully, they became one.
then Jean appeared in the What If
(Rise and Fall of the Shiar) as the embodiment of the Force,
which was a fact since Endsong. (all above took place canon to 616)

So, what, or how did Jean end up in an Egg 150 years in the future,
not merged to the Force? No explanation for that, cause there is none.

Doesn't make sense.

Which is why HCT is completely ignored by both the Pheonix Force's 2005 bio,
and Jean Grey's 2008 bio.

btw.

No where in either bio is there anything mentioned about any "White Crown" Jean.

Endsong or the What IF, makes no mention of any White Crown Jean either.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Does canon even matter anymore?

They are the same. You won't find any modern-day bio crediting Beyonder with his pre-retcon levels of power. This is the same case with HCT. It is non-canon but people still use it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
There's a difference... PC Superman actually existed, he was just erased in the crisis... he wasn't retconned into not having been around in the first place. He's distinct from current Superman. Beyonder is the same character but for some reason PR Beyonder is still treated as different.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Because it is before the retcon, everything that was revealed after does not matter. Before the retcon, Beyonder was established as the ultimate being in Marvel's existence, what he was reduced to after is not relevant.

Originally posted by King Kandy

There's a difference... PC Superman actually existed, he was just erased in the crisis... he wasn't retconned into not having been around in the first place. He's distinct from current Superman. Beyonder is the same character but for some reason PR Beyonder is still treated as different.

Instead of erasing Multi-Death, he erased 616 Death.
Which by today standards may be = to multiversal Death anyway. (don't quote me)

Post-Beyonder still gave the Rachel the Full power of the PF, impressive.

Defeating the Celestials was retconned into the Celestials letting him do it.

Scarring the LT and Eternity was also allowed by LT and Eternity, so that was retconned.

But threatening the 616 Universe is still credited to Post-retcon.

So basically, their were certain scenarios that were taken off his feats list,
but their were others that are still to this day on his resume.

I understand that, this was not my argument at all. I was saying that it's stupid to use pre AND post retcon versions when NO other character is thus split.

Originally posted by King Kandy

They are the same.
You won't find any modern-day bio crediting Beyonder with his pre-retcon levels of power.

..................................................................

Post-retcon erased Death from the 616 Universe: (Death bio - 2006)

................................................................

POST-Retcon Beyonder gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

..................................................................

Come on K, you gotta admit, for a Cube being, that's impressive.

He's done other things outside of Secret Wars too.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Alright. Just expect me to use this logic in any future threads so I can easily dismiss bad showings of my favorite characters.