Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm personally in favor of a tech limit, but that's just me."I'd say make it so you can only field two Dupes or Independent Constructs, and not just during the battle but also for prep. Also make it so that if they lose one they can not reform it back during battle."
This is high meta, so Newjak's rule makes sense. Dupes at low meta tend to dominate more.
There's a tech limit in regards to what you can bring into combat (no weapons in excess of a Ironman armor's standard armaments), and prep is only 10 minutes with time penalties for the amalgamation process. There essentially is a tech limit.
I think we're getting a little too worked up about dupes. The extent to which we're limiting them seems really severe when we're talking about a tournament that has no caps on finalized power.
I think that we should go back to the original limits on the number of dupes and allow them to be recreated, but limit their amalgam possibilities. The cap on dupes is a remote Iron Man suit right? Then I say we limit characters who have the power to duplicate to amalgaming with a low-meta or lower character. Think about it, pretty much anyone on the mid-meta tier who's suddenly able to duplicate should be able to take out a remote suit of Tony's old armor without TOO much trouble, but even 30 Spidermen(let alone 5) would get KO'd by a single wide angle replusor blast in a no PIS environment.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I think we're getting a little too worked up about dupes. The extent to which we're limiting them seems really severe when we're talking about a tournament that has no caps on finalized power.I think that we should go back to the original limits on the number of dupes and allow them to be recreated, but limit their amalgam possibilities. The cap on dupes is a remote Iron Man suit right? Then I say we limit characters who have the power to duplicate to amalgaming with a low-meta or lower character. Think about it, pretty much anyone on the mid-meta tier who's suddenly able to duplicate should be able to take out a remote suit of Tony's old armor without TOO much trouble, but even 30 Spidermen(let alone 5) would get KO'd by a single wide angle replusor blast in a no PIS environment.
That's getting awfully technical, and is essentially neutering a power (duping) in order to make it less dominant. The fact that you're suggesting it shows precisely why it's so out of place in a tournament at this level. This is a high meta (and below) tourney, so if duping's allowed, it should be allowed for high metas or not at all.
Under the current format, with probably an average of 5 on teams, and dupes being limited to 2 (and no re-creation) as well as limited to IM level (meaning they can only amalgamate with 1 other character) it forces people to choose. They could have 3 Iron Men, for example, but sacrifice extra powers because one of their picks was a duplicator. Or go with more powers, but less characters overall. It's a nice tradeoff, and creates a good balance, because we aren't forced to pick a duper, but we also aren't punished too much for picking one (which your suggestion would do).
I endorse the current proposition ill, btw. 2 constructs/dupes, no higher than IM level, and no recreation. 5 total, with 3 being no higher than IM level, or 3 total, all conceivably > IM.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's getting awfully technical, and is essentially neutering a power (duping) in order to make it less dominant. The fact that you're suggesting it shows precisely why it's so out of place in a tournament at this level. This is a high meta (and below) tourney, so if duping's allowed, it should be allowed for high metas or not at all.Under the current format, with probably an average of 5 on teams, and dupes being limited to 2 (and no re-creation) as well as limited to IM level (meaning they can only amalgamate with 1 other character) it forces people to choose. They could have 3 Iron Men, for example, but sacrifice extra powers because one of their picks was a duplicator. Or go with more powers, but less characters overall. It's a nice tradeoff, and creates a good balance, because we aren't forced to pick a duper, but we also aren't punished too much for picking one (which your suggestion would do).
I endorse the current proposition ill, btw. 2 constructs/dupes, no higher than IM level, and no recreation. 5 total, with 3 being no higher than IM level, or 3 total, all conceivably > IM.
I'm not trying to push for no limit on dupes or anything because I understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere, but your method seems much more vulnerable to loophole exploitation.
Originally posted by Badabing
Warned for bashing. Please be civil in the future. Thanks.
😆
Bada, Newjak wasn't bashing me. It's an inside joke regarding this Transformers clip from Youtube where Optimus Prime calls Kupp "Shitpiece" and Bumblebee "Goldbug". Could you rescind the warning please? No harm, no foul, and I don't want Newjak getting in trouble over a misunderstanding.
I'm in favour of the 2 dupe, IM limit rule.
Interesting side point to that though - Dupli-Kate (from Invincible) Each dupe is independent and can create new dupes, theoretically couldn't everyone draft a different numbered version of her?
ie, Leo drafts Dupli-Kate #1, Goober drafts Dupli-Kate #14, etc, etc...
It would certainly allow everyone to have access to duping if they wanted it that badly.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Wouldn't the other way fall even more under the neutering category though? I thought that neutering was capping the amount of power someone's allowed to use to a level lower than they've shown themselves capable of to get them in under the wire. I mean isn't that what limiting the number of dupes allowed is? If Marvel gave Warbird a duplication power like Multiple Man's tomorrow don't you think she'd be a fair share more powerful than one of Tony's remote suits of armor?I'm not trying to push for no limit on dupes or anything because I understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere, but your method seems much more vulnerable to loophole exploitation.
Well, dupes fall under constructs, which fall under the individual character cap. The limit is two dupes/constructs. If you chose to amalgamate a character with a duplicator you'd be able to add 2 Ironman/High Meta level duplicates to your team. Their progenitor isn't capped at High meta, just the duplicates/constructs.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, dupes fall under constructs, which fall under the individual character cap. The limit is two dupes/constructs. If you chose to amalgamate a character with a duplicator you'd be able to add 2 Ironman/High Meta level duplicates to your team. Their progenitor isn't capped at High meta, just the duplicates/constructs.
Sooooo ... I could join Multiple Man and Iron Man, create 2 dupes of him, then Amalgamate the original with a third character to boost him even further while leaving the dupes at IM level?
Originally posted by Scoobless
Sooooo ... I could join Multiple Man and Iron Man, create 2 dupes of him, then Amalgamate the original with a third character to boost him even further while leaving the dupes at IM level?
Essentially, if you actually would have any prep left to do so. Don't forget the time penalties.
Originally posted by Scoobless
If you create two amalgams simultaneously, do you only get penalised for whichever one would take longer?
The time penalty is for the actual characters involved in the process, not your team's overall prep allowance. If I had a team of 10 characters, while Characters #1 and #2 were amalgamating, Characters 3 through 10 could still be performing different prep tasks simultaneously, or if I had Characters 1 through 4 amalgamate and character 7 through 10 amalgamate at the same time, only characters 5 and 6 would still be free to perform any prep tasks. The time penalties remove the characters involved in the amalgamation process from being able to perform any tasks during the time it takes to amalgamate. Basically, during the amalgamation process only the characters being amalgamated are effected. Any team member not amalgamating is free to perform tasks while the others amalgamate.
Also, in regards to your question about merging Ironman with a duplicator, making the 2 dupes, then amalgamating him again, you would be penalized 2 minutes for the 2 character amalgamation, then an additional 4 minutes to create the 3 character amalgamation.
Originally posted by illadelph12
😆Bada, Newjak wasn't bashing me. It's an inside joke regarding this Transformers clip from Youtube where Optimus Prime calls Kupp "Shitpiece" and Bumblebee "Goldbug". Could you rescind the warning please? No harm, no foul, and I don't want Newjak getting in trouble over a misunderstanding.
durelly
Originally posted by illadelph12😂 I was messing with him. 😛
😆Bada, Newjak wasn't bashing me. It's an inside joke regarding this Transformers clip from Youtube where Optimus Prime calls Kupp "Shitpiece" and Bumblebee "Goldbug". Could you rescind the warning please? No harm, no foul, and I don't want Newjak getting in trouble over a misunderstanding.
grr . . . and now you see exactly WHY i would just as soon have duping banned outright . . . any suggestion that allows it must in essence neuter it at the same time. and regardless, SOMEONE will always find a way to loophole around it anyway! just once, if i draft a team, i'd like to be sure the powers i draft STAY my own, and that if someone comes up with a cool, tough amalgam, i wouldn't have to worry about having to face clones/dupes of it . . .
i like the notion of heavy penalties for duping/cloning, but would still favor banning all madrox/mimic-style characters of ANY level.