Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Yes.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Master CrimzonI won't bother asking 'why', but I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. Lol.
As far as Lecter is concerned, Sir Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of an intelligent, wily, manipulative, homoerotic, masochistic, classy cannibal with the gaze of a striking cobra and the famous slither of his appetite for taste and scent is glorious. I don't read the comics, but as far the Joker is concerned, the baggage he carries is due to his childhood 'cut-ups', and that's it. If you read into what made Lecter what he was, you'll notice it's a lot deeper. Also, seeing the change between a classy, suit-wearing, opera-going Hopkins to a man in handcuffs running and eating a prison guard is bone-chilling. He
Spoiler:I don't mean to convince you, but you didn't bother asking why! 🙂
scalps his victims while they're alive. At the same time, we have classical music, tuxedo's and a frying pan with seasoned human brains being cooked to perfection, which will be fed to the still-alive victim whose brains are later fed to a 10-year-old.
I truly believe that Heath Ledger did an incredible job. And I think he paid excellent homage to Jack Nicholson's performance. But as someone in the forum mentioned, we're comparing eras within cinematic history, something which is undeniably inaccurate. To say something like 'The Godfather' is a better Mafia movie than 'Donnie Brasco' is comparing apples and toenails; only because they're generations apart, with a very different industry at the time, and more importantly, EXTREMELY different expectations. I don't know if you made THIS particular point, so I'm not refuting you. Just had to mention it.
I've been traumatized by Vader due to the recent Hayden Christte..whatever and his Oscar-winning performance of Darth. So I'm going to stay away from that one! 😘
Sorry chillmeistergenif I stepped on any point you were making with the resounding 'yes'. 🙂
cheers to all!
P.S. The Godfather is a better Mafia movie....!
Originally posted by agphoenix
I hope you don't mind me trying to answer on your behalf. PLEASE correct any opinion I'm going to voice about...[QUOTE=Master Crimzon]Originally posted by Master Crimzon[b]I won't bother asking 'why', but I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. Lol.
As far as Lecter is concerned, Sir Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of an intelligent, wily, manipulative, homoerotic, masochistic, classy cannibal with the gaze of a striking cobra and the famous slither of his appetite for taste and scent is glorious. I don't read the comics, but as far the Joker is concerned, the baggage he carries is due to his childhood 'cut-ups', and that's it. If you read into what made Lecter what he was, you'll notice it's a lot deeper. Also, seeing the change between a classy, suit-wearing, opera-going Hopkins to a man in handcuffs running and eating a prison guard is bone-chilling. He
Spoiler:I don't mean to convince you, but you didn't bother asking why! 🙂
scalps his victims while they're alive. At the same time, we have classical music, tuxedo's and a frying pan with seasoned human brains being cooked to perfection, which will be fed to the still-alive victim whose brains are later fed to a 10-year-old.
I truly believe that Heath Ledger did an incredible job. And I think he paid excellent homage to Jack Nicholson's performance. But as someone in the forum mentioned, we're comparing eras within cinematic history, something which is undeniably inaccurate. To say something like 'The Godfather' is a better Mafia movie than 'Donnie Brasco' is comparing apples and toenails; only because they're generations apart, with a very different industry at the time, and more importantly, EXTREMELY different expectations. I don't know if you made THIS particular point, so I'm not refuting you. Just had to mention it.
I've been traumatized by Vader due to the recent Hayden Christte..whatever and his Oscar-winning performance of Darth. So I'm going to stay away from that one! 😘
Sorry chillmeistergenif I stepped on any point you were making with the resounding 'yes'. 🙂
cheers to all!
P.S. The Godfather is a better Mafia movie....! [/B][/QUOTE]
I never suggested that Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker is superior to Hannibal, but it's certainly comparable, and they aren't miles apart. I like the Joker better, but hey, that's just my personal opinion, like no one can actually go and say "TDK is the better movie ever made" (it's not) and for that statement to be taken as fact.
And Hayden Christensen never won an oscar. He's an okay actor, but he's nothing great, either. Then again, there very few truly great portrayals in SW. The only truly oscar-worthy performances in SW comes from Alec Guiness and Ian McDiarmid. Ewan McGregor is also very good, as is Christopher Lee as Count Dooku.
Anyways, moving on; Hannibal is certainly a more complex and deep character (having your own series of films helps), but the Joker is completely surrounded by mystery, and, unlike Lecter is truly, completely insane. Pure evil/monstrous. Hannibal is a crazy cannibal, and is probably the greatest serial killer to ever be portrayed on the big screen, and his actions are far more gruesome than the Joker's own- but who is truly a more sick mind? Hannibal has his morals. He's not a random killer and he doesn't do it for the fun; the Joker, on the other hand, is different. As I've mentioned previously, the Joker laughing maniacally as he takes severe beatings and plummets from buildings is unsettling. Many, many characters don't fear death; but what character laughs like they have the time of their life when they're being beaten and nearly killed?
In addition, the Joker does everything he does because it's... fun. Enjoyable. He doesn't have any sort of different motive- he hates money (making him automatically cooler than 90% of action movie villains), and takes sadistic pleasure in carving people's faces up and watching masses scream and panic. He feeds on the pain and suffering of others, in a sense. His acts of violence may be less horrifying and revolting than Hannibal's, but he, in many ways, is a more horrifying and bone-chilling villain. I could easily imagine the Joker as a villain in a horror movie- can you not? A serial killer who kills because it's fun. The guy looks at the entire life as a joke, a cruel joke; and he raises multiple fundamental questions. Like the necessity of rules. Would you be a murderer if you were allowed to be?
Plus, he has dozens of cool quotes, and you can't beat his crazy laughter. 😈
He has like...three quotes. I think the fact that Lector has his own moral code makes him the better villain, I can't count the number of times I've seen villains with no morals. Not only does them having their own moral code make them more believable, but it also makes their actions more unfathomable.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonAnd Hayden Christensen never won an oscar. He's an okay actor, but he's nothing great, either. Then again, there very few truly great portrayals in SW. The only truly oscar-worthy performances in SW comes from Alec Guiness and Ian McDiarmid. Ewan McGregor is also very good, as is Christopher Lee as Count Dooku.
A) I'm pretty sure he was being ironic when he referred to Hayden Christensen's performance as being Oscar-worthy or winning or whatever.
B) No, he's not an OK actor. He's very sub-standard.
C) Ewan McGregor was OK. Christopher Lee was merely on auto-pilot. He had little to do and a very poorly written, dull part.
And, no, not even the Empire Strikes Back is near the level of Citizen Kane or Shawshank, before you say it...
"Why so serious?"
"I'm an agent of chaos."
"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."
"I won't kill you because you're too much fun!"
"Wanna see a magic trick?"
"Let's put a smile on that face!"
"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger."
"C'mon! Hit me!"
And that's just off the top of my head.
Moving to the more important stuff, can you ever name a villain that finds death funny, laughs hysterically when he is about to die, abides by absolutely no logical rule, and still manages to control everything and everyone?
Edit (lol): To Bauer guy. Ewan McGregor is an excellent actor, in my opinion, making Obi-Wan my favorite Jedi in the saga. Count Dooku's rule was interesting, complex, and not dull at all- he's the best thing about AotC. Then again, I'm a fairly dedicated SW fan (find me on the Star Wars forums), so maybe I see things in a different light.
Oh, and ESB isn't even my favorite episode in the saga. RotS is. And I like TDK more than both of them, but that might be because I saw them so many bloody times. And I wasn't gonna suggest that they were as good as Shawshank or Citizen Kane. But, let me ask you a question, and answer me honestly; thought-provoking and disturbing aside, what film do you have more fun watching? RotS, ESB, TDK, and its likes, or Godfather, Shawshank, and Kane?
Originally posted by Da Joker
Hopefully he does, and I get a feeling people will boo if he doesn't. It'd be wrong, but it's the way people are.
And that's exactly what I am referring to. How many movies have you seen this year? What about the movies that have yet to come out in the next four months? Yet you've already committed yourself that Heath's joker is it.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
"Why so serious?"
"I'm an agent of chaos."
"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."
"I won't kill you because you're too much fun!"
"Wanna see a magic trick?"
"Let's put a smile on that face!"
"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger."
"C'mon! Hit me!"And that's just off the top of my head.
Moving to the more important stuff, can you ever name a villain that finds death funny, laughs hysterically when he is about to die, abides by absolutely no logical rule, and still manages to control everything and everyone?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
"Why so serious?"
"I'm an agent of chaos."
"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."
"I won't kill you because you're too much fun!"
"Wanna see a magic trick?"
"Let's put a smile on that face!"
"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger."
"C'mon! Hit me!"And that's just off the top of my head.
Sort of lacks substance, don't you think?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Moving to the more important stuff, can you ever name a villain that finds death funny, laughs hysterically when he is about to die, abides by absolutely no logical rule, and still manages to control everything and everyone?
Not off the top of my head, no. That by no means makes Ledger's joker one of the greatest villains in cinematic history, though.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
"Why so serious?"
"I'm an agent of chaos."
"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."
"I won't kill you because you're too much fun!"
"Wanna see a magic trick?"
"Let's put a smile on that face!"
"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger."
"C'mon! Hit me!"And that's just off the top of my head.
Moving to the more important stuff, can you ever name a villain that finds death funny, laughs hysterically when he is about to die, abides by absolutely no logical rule, and still manages to control everything and everyone?
If we're comparing Hannibal to Joker here, it's a silly comparison. Hannibal's analysis of Foster in the first 10 minutes of them meeting was far creepier and brilliant than anything Health did as the Joker, and that was at the very beginning of the film.
How nice of you to limit what makes a good villain to the exact guidelines of what Heath/Joker did. Might as well rip Heath/Joker apart for not wielding a lightsaber.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
"Why so serious?"
"I'm an agent of chaos."
"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."
"I won't kill you because you're too much fun!"
"Wanna see a magic trick?"
"Let's put a smile on that face!"
"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger."
"C'mon! Hit me!"And that's just off the top of my head.
Moving to the more important stuff, can you ever name a villain that finds death funny, laughs hysterically when he is about to die, abides by absolutely no logical rule, and still manages to control everything and everyone?
Edit (lol): To Bauer guy. Ewan McGregor is an excellent actor, in my opinion, making Obi-Wan my favorite Jedi in the saga. Count Dooku's rule was interesting, complex, and not dull at all- he's the best thing about AotC. Then again, I'm a fairly dedicated SW fan (find me on the Star Wars forums), so maybe I see things in a different light.
Oh, and ESB isn't even my favorite episode in the saga. RotS is. And I like TDK more than both of them, but that might be because I saw them so many bloody times. And I wasn't gonna suggest that they were as good as Shawshank or Citizen Kane. But, let me ask you a question, and answer me honestly; thought-provoking and disturbing aside, what film do you have more fun watching? RotS, ESB, TDK, and its likes, or Godfather, Shawshank, and Kane?
A) Ewan McGregor's a good actor, but he was nothing more than OK in that bullshit trilogy.
B) RotS is an overrated pile of shit that belongs deep in the ground along with its 2 preceding films.
C) Yes, Dooku was dull and shit. All Lee did was speak in his trademark "I AM INTIMIDATING AND POWERFUL" voice. He could have been complex but his backstory was never explained, his role reduced to being both minimal (thank God) and dull.
D) I absolutely love the Shawshank Redemption. It's an extremely enjoyable and uplifting film, IMO. I'd much rather watch it than RotS and normally, though it depends on my mood, more than ESB and TDK. Same goes for the Godfather. I'm not such a fan of Citizen Kane though. It's somewhat outdated and, dare I say it, dull...?
No, I was simply stating that Heath's Joker is unique, and there was nothing quite like it in cinematic history. Hannibal is unique, obviously, but so is the Joker.
I really love how I can never argue here without five people ganging up on me. Lol. And I do know that there are some people who agree with me... not blaming you guys, though. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
And the Joker's scene with the cop in the interrogation room was friggin' creepy, too. I mean, what guy tells a cop exactly how he killed his friends (slowly and painfully)? The way the Joker pissed off Batman was also amazing, as was his video (using the media as a weapon. Am I the only one who noted this? The Joker uses the media to cause panic and alarm throughout the masses. That's another theme in the movie), and the way he talked about his scars before killing and mutilating Gambol. And, of course, laughing like a lunatic while plummeting to his death. When did Hannibal do something like that?
Edit (godamnit, I hate edits): I see you're a prequel basher, Bauer. Meh. I don't bother discussing SW with prequel bashers, anyways, considering they (and you, if I'm correct) can do nothing but bash the prequels. But- hoping that I am wrong- I will tell you that I love the prequels (ALL of them, even TPM), and the RotS is the most satisfying, tragic film in the entire series. It's dark atmosphere, the dramatic deaths of Jedi, the superb action, the excellent performance of the Emperor by McDiarmid all raise it to where it is. It doesn't have an 80% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes for nothing. The tension between Palps and Anakin is breathtaking, and Obi-Wan's reaction to Anakin's betrayal moving. Yeah. RotS is the best, deepest, and darkest episode in the entire saga, IMO.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No, I was simply stating that Heath's Joker is unique, and there was nothing quite like it in cinematic history. Hannibal is unique, obviously, but so is the Joker.I really love how I can never argue here without five people ganging up on me. Lol. And I do know that there are some people who agree with me... not blaming you guys, though. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
And the Joker's scene with the cop in the interrogation room was friggin' creepy, too. I mean, what guy tells a cop exactly how he killed his friends (slowly and painfully)? The way the Joker pissed off Batman was also amazing, as was his video (using the media as a weapon. Am I the only one who noted this? The Joker uses the media to cause panic and alarm throughout the masses. That's another theme in the movie), and the way he talked about his scars before killing and mutilating Gambol. And, of course, laughing like a lunatic while plummeting to his death. When did Hannibal do something like that?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No, I was simply stating that Heath's Joker is unique, and there was nothing quite like it in cinematic history. Hannibal is unique, obviously, but so is the Joker.I really love how I can never argue here without five people ganging up on me. Lol. And I do know that there are some people who agree with me... not blaming you guys, though. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
And the Joker's scene with the cop in the interrogation room was friggin' creepy, too. I mean, what guy tells a cop exactly how he killed his friends (slowly and painfully)? The way the Joker pissed off Batman was also amazing, as was his video (using the media as a weapon. Am I the only one who noted this? The Joker uses the media to cause panic and alarm throughout the masses. That's another theme in the movie), and the way he talked about his scars before killing and mutilating Gambol. And, of course, laughing like a lunatic while plummeting to his death. When did Hannibal do something like that?
He didn't need to, it's all about subtlety and understatement - something you clearly don't understand.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Don't do that again, please. I understand it very well- and if you would please bother responding to my points rather than making smartass statement? I don't want to go into an insult match with you again.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Don't do that again, please. I understand it very well- and if you would please bother responding to my points rather than making smartass statement? I don't want to go into an insult match with you again.
Again, you're using what the Joker did as the unit of measure, which is just shit.
Edit: You'r essentially arguing that Hannibal wasn't the more intimidating, frightening, etc. figure because he didn't say "why so serious", which is just odd.