Is it God's will for you to go to hell?

Started by DigiMark0078 pages

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
When someone is created just because God knows the ultimate destination of their life doesn't mean it isn't up to the person to choose.

The problem here is our concept of time- someone studying History in the 45th Century might be learning that Obama instituted a second holocaust...that doesn't mean that Obama is fixed to that fate- it up to him to choose...

That doesn't even make sense. If they're studying the history of it, it happened. It had to happen that way because that's how it did happen.

Yes, we choose things. We make decisions from among myriad possibilities on a daily basis. Yet we had to make those choices, and could have made no others. There's a cause for each action, whether it's a large, identifiable cause, or a cause that is so small and imperceptible that we can't actively record it because it deals with brain processes that we can't track. And a cause that precedes the actions that lead to the decision. So on and so forth. Causality. Simple enough.

But Christians seem to think we actually could pick something else. Say you're deciding between vanilla and chocolate. You're torn. You choose chocolate. Now rewind existence to before the choice and run it again. You aren't aware of the first iteration, and all the particulars of the situation, down to a sub-atomic level, are the same. You'd pick chocolate. Run it a million times, you'd pick chocolate. What is it that gives free will then? What makes Christians believe that if you did that, sometimes you'd pick chocolate and others vanilla? God does. Yet, how is it "free" if some divine randomness is inserted into the equation? It isn't "you" making the decision....meaning, the physical (and even metaphysical) aspects of yourself causally affecting one another to make a decision. That's determinism, and would be the only way we'd actually be free in the sense that we determine our actions for ourselves. How is it that our actions, and ours alone, are outside causality? How is everything we do not determined by that which comes before it? It isn't in a Christian paradigm.

Pseudo-scientific attempts to sneak free will in the back door that is quantum mechanics have also been thoroughly debunked and called into question. We have no rational reason for believing everything we do isn't determined by that which precedes it.

So yes, we choose things all the time. But free will is thrown around far too often without justification. Perceiving a choice, and having a choice (both of which we do), isn't the same as saying the choice will be made a certain way, and could be no other way. Issuing God paradoxes like this one is starting with a flawed premise, because Christian free will is logically impossible to begin with.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So...would you rather never live to have the opportunity?

But that life is given with foreknowledge of what descision the person will make; at least according to your answer.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A biography has no effect on the subject. It simply records the past, every choice was still there to be made or not made. Standing in the future and looking back doesn't take away the options from anyone.

I was trying to say that for the biography to exist, the actions and decisions all had to be completed. Digimark made my point for me on pg. 2.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
God knowing doesn't stop you from making the decisions and choices...again time is not linear.

If you CHOOSE to jump off a bridge tomorrow and you die- thats your life over. You might CHOOSE not to jump off the bridge however...God knows what choice you will make, but that doesn't stop you making the choice.

Again, think of a Time Machine.

If I go into the future say...70 years and read a biography of your life...my knowledge of what you are going to do doesn't take away your free will to make the decisions and even change it...

Beautifully explained, if I might add.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That doesn't even make sense. If they're studying the history of it, it happened. It had to happen that way because that's how it did happen.

Yes, we choose things. We make decisions from among myriad possibilities on a daily basis. Yet we had to make those choices, and could have made no others. There's a cause for each action, whether it's a large, identifiable cause, or a cause that is so small and imperceptible that we can't actively record it because it deals with brain processes that we can't track. And a cause that precedes the actions that lead to the decision. So on and so forth. Causality. Simple enough.

But Christians seem to think we actually could pick something else. Say you're deciding between vanilla and chocolate. You're torn. You choose chocolate. Now rewind existence to before the choice and run it again. You aren't aware of the first iteration, and all the particulars of the situation, down to a sub-atomic level, are the same. You'd pick chocolate. Run it a million times, you'd pick chocolate. What is it that gives free will then? What makes Christians believe that if you did that, sometimes you'd pick chocolate and others vanilla? God does. Yet, how is it "free" if some divine randomness is inserted into the equation? It isn't "you" making the decision....meaning, the physical (and even metaphysical) aspects of yourself causally affecting one another to make a decision. That's determinism, and would be the only way we'd actually be free in the sense that we determine our actions for ourselves. How is it that our actions, and ours alone, are outside causality? How is everything we do not determined by that which comes before it? It isn't in a Christian paradigm.

Pseudo-scientific attempts to sneak free will in the back door that is quantum mechanics have also been thoroughly debunked and called into question. We have no rational reason for believing everything we do isn't determined by that which precedes it.

So yes, we choose things all the time. But free will is thrown around far too often without justification. Perceiving a choice, and having a choice (both of which we do), isn't the same as saying the choice will be made a certain way, and could be no other way. Issuing God paradoxes like this one is starting with a flawed premise, because Christian free will is logically impossible to begin with.

I think it to be a bit of a shallow view on free will.

First of all, we have to put time afar. What you read in history is factual, but never does it reveal 100% of the story. Should someone be perceived only based on what he did? Wrong.

Second, God is above causality. Causality is linked to time, and God is not. Being outside, he does not affect our decisions to choose our own fate. Ice cream is a small example. Free will means that nothing is blocking you from chosing one or another. If you like chocalate better, then of course you'll choose chocolate. If the choice of chocolate is not available to you, then you'll pick something else. Don't mix free will and preferences.

If you trancend this example in life, you'll find the same logic. You'll always go to your preferences, but nothing stops you from doing otherwise. I could one day go against my habit and decide to pick the vanilla ice cream instead. I did it of my own free will, and God knew I would pick that. If I went back in time and decided to pick the chocolate because I prefer it, I did it again with my free will, and God knew that I would pick the chocolate one.

I have to go now, so I'll finish later lol.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
God knowing doesn't stop you from making the decisions and choices...again time is not linear.

If you CHOOSE to jump off a bridge tomorrow and you die- thats your life over. You might CHOOSE not to jump off the bridge however...God knows what choice you will make, but that doesn't stop you making the choice.

Again, think of a Time Machine.

If I go into the future say...70 years and read a biography of your life...my knowledge of what you are going to do doesn't take away your free will to make the decisions and even change it...

Okay....So that's like saying that you decide your gay, but God already knew you were gonna make that choice but let you make it anyway. Basically he let you live just to go to Hell. Wow. That doesn't sound very compassionate at all. It would have been better if he had not let you live at all.

How can you change it? Either God know what you're gomg to do or not. There's no in between. If you can change a choice that God has already foreseen, then God is fallible and pretty much negates the "All-Knowing" thing. If Not, however, then there really isn't anything you can do to change your fate negating the beauty of free-will.

Being gay has nothing with free will, it is what was bestowed upon you.

Originally posted by Mandos
Being gay has nothing with free will, it is what was bestowed upon you.

How so? Please explain.

Some things you cannot change. The fact that you are a man or a woman. No choice in life will change this fundamental thing. That you are gay is another fondamental thing, but with different purposes.

Originally posted by Mandos
Some things you cannot change. The fact that you are a man or a woman. No choice in life will change this fundamental thing. That you are gay is another fondamental thing, but with different purposes.

What purposes? 😕

Originally posted by Mandos
Some things you cannot change. The fact that you are a man or a woman. No choice in life will change this fundamental thing. That you are gay is another fondamental thing, but with different purposes.

Even though I don't agree with that (I mean the sexual orientation part), if that is the case, then that is an even more Evil thing to do on God's part. Now you don't even get to choose whether you're gay or not. I guess every parent is gambling with God on their child's salvation or damnation, hoping that Homosexuality will not be bestowed upon them. Jesus, now that God/Satan integration thing is starting to make sense.

Originally posted by socool8520
Even though I don't agree with that (I mean the sexual orientation part), if that is the case, then that is an even more Evil thing to do on God's part. Now you don't even get to choose whether you're gay or not. I guess every parent is gambling with God on their child's salvation or damnation, hoping that Homosexuality will not be bestowed upon them. Jesus, now that God/Satan integration thing is starting to make sense.

Well the problem with that argument is Original Sin...

God creates everyone in the full knowledge that they are going to be sinners...so what.

That doesn't mean they can't choose to live pious lives as best as possible.

So essentially, noone is born with the ability to choose to be a sinner or not...they just are. End of. Thus, your problem with homosexuality is rendered void.

Of FYI being homosexual is not a sin...committing the act of sodomy is a sin.

Acts 13:48

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 1:4-5

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . .

Jude 1:4

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29-30

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 9:11-22

For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

2 Timothy 1:9

Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity . . .

http://www.thercg.org/books/dtbtp.html

Originally posted by Mandos
I think it to be a bit of a shallow view on free will.

First of all, we have to put time afar. What you read in history is factual, but never does it reveal 100% of the story. Should someone be perceived only based on what he did? Wrong.

We're not talking about interpreting historical texts. Let's not confuse the issue unecessarily.

Originally posted by Mandos
Second, God is above causality. Causality is linked to time, and God is not. Being outside, he does not affect our decisions to choose our own fate. Ice cream is a small example. Free will means that nothing is blocking you from chosing one or another. If you like chocalate better, then of course you'll choose chocolate. If the choice of chocolate is not available to you, then you'll pick something else. Don't mix free will and preferences.

God is above causality....ok, we'll assume it for a second, despite the fact that it raises new illogical paradoxes. We, however, are not above it. And are therefore subject to it. Choosing your own fate is determinism. We make all of our choices, but couldn't have made any others because we're causally linked to everything that preceded a specific moment.

Originally posted by Mandos
If you trancend this example in life, you'll find the same logic. You'll always go to your preferences, but nothing stops you from doing otherwise. I could one day go against my habit and decide to pick the vanilla ice cream instead. I did it of my own free will, and God knew I would pick that. If I went back in time and decided to pick the chocolate because I prefer it, I did it again with my free will, and God knew that I would pick the chocolate one.

I have to go now, so I'll finish later lol.

You're missing the point. If you "go against habit" there's still a reason for it. Maybe you wanted to try something new. Maybe you wanted to spite a dude on the internet who was espousing determinism. Maybe {insert any of hundreds of reasons}. But that going against the habit was still determined. It still had a cause, whether you perceive it or whether it was so cognitively subtle that it appeared to be random to you. Run that specific scenario a million times and you'll always "go against type" because the same cause(s) that made you choose it the first time would still be in place (assuming, of course, that you aren't aware of earlier iterations, which would change the scenario entirely).

Whether God knows it or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that your choice is determined. You have choices. We all do. There's just only one way that it will play out. But since we don't know what that is (we can't see the future) choices are still exciting, occasionally unexpected, and rewarding to make.....because it is everything that makes us who we are that is making the decision.

...

On a side note, I always find it amusing when Christians will happily submit to the idea that everything else in the universe is determined. But not humans. It's elitism on a cosmic scale to assume that we are somehow separate and above the universe that gave rise to us, and that we are a part of as much as any other sentient creature or piece of energy/matter. Not everyone is like this, granted, but I've encountered it enough to become amused at the irony of it.

Does time actually exist?

Original sin said by some writer. It is by god who is the original? Isn't he the one that is the author of life, each and every soul? Isn't he the Creator? Isn't he the one that makes no mistakes?

If there were some original sin, He would have known about it eons before, yet he would let his creations fall, fail and the condemn them for such efforts, eternally?

Doesn't sound much like a Master Mind.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Original sin said by some writer. It is by god who is the original? Isn't he the one that is the author of life, each and every soul? Isn't he the Creator? Isn't he the one that makes no mistakes?

If there were some original sin, He would have known about it eons before, yet he would let his creations fall, fail and the condemn them for such efforts, eternally?

Doesn't sound much like a Master Mind.

Unless he was intent on allowing his creation to take its own natural course...with a little bit of interference now and then...because of his love.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Unless he was intent on allowing his creation to take its own natural course...with a little bit of interference now and then...because of his love.
Eternal punishment is love? Nah, don't think a High Being would do such things. That is a humans thinking; Man made thinking,.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Eternal punishment is love? Nah, don't think a High Being would do such things. That is a humans thinking; Man made thinking,.

Eternal?