Meh... I know he does it often... still seems silly that Batgirl alone essentially stalemates while Batgirl, Nightwing, Donna Troy, Ravager and Jericho look like idiots. And pretty much any singular person from that Identity Crisis fight should at least give a good fight or completely stomp him.
Must be inverse ninja law.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotiirc, the one were Deathstroke first brought in Rose as Ravager, Slade was overwhelming Batigirl and was too fast for her, and she even read it as if he was toying with her and not taking it serious/not trying to put her down.
Meh... I know he does it often... still seems silly that Batgirl alone essentially stalemates while Batgirl, Nightwing, Donna Troy, Ravager and Jericho look like idiots. And pretty much any singular person from that Identity Crisis fight should at least give a good fight or completely stomp him.Must be inverse ninja law.
However, it could be applied that Nightwing has had a decent showing against him, however even Nightwing with or without a group, typically is no match for him.
Donna I don't think has ever really been a match for him, despite the reality that she probably should be his physical superior.
And he's typically well above the street levelers, he just sometimes has problems with them, ala Spiderman.
I was more referring to the other fight between her and Deathstroke where he ends it by pulling out a grenade; but for all intents and purposes physically it's seemed a stalemate. (It also states in a hearsay manner in the new Batgirl that Deathstroke drugged her from a distance apparently because he couldn't take her hand-to-hand.)
I don't mind the Flash thing really in comics since it doesn't fly on the forum anyway, I just wish they would at least rationalize it better...
Originally posted by xmarksthespotYeah, that's what Batman said, however in two showings what you said as a stalemate, and in another him being too fast and powerful for her, albiet not trying to put her down.
I was more referring to the other fight between her and Deathstroke where he ends it by pulling out a grenade; but for all intents and purposes physically it's seemed a stalemate. (It also states in a hearsay manner in the new Batgirl that Deathstroke drugged her from a distance apparently because he couldn't take her hand-to-hand.)I don't mind the Flash thing really in comics since it doesn't fly on the forum anyway, I just wish they would at least rationalize it better...
I'm wondering if Slade is going to appear int he new Batgirl comics?
Also, I can't figure out if the Batgirl thing is a mini or an ongoing? Because it said Batgirl in her all new series and didn't mention being "1 of [number]", but on the DC site, it said 1 of 6.
Originally posted by Rorschach
PIS.Wally avoided the C4 but ran into Slade's sword. He should have easily avoided Slade's sword, he had plenty of time to do it.
Besides, Wally has fought battles that have lasted less than a second. Thrown hundreds of punches in less than a second, has near istantanious reaction time, etc. He has far greater combat speed than most other comic book characters.
Oh, and I was under the impression that GA meant Deathstroke could think faster than Flash (which still doesn't make much sense, Wally can think at light-speeds), not that he possessed superior combat speed.
i'm not trying to take away from wally's feats, especially in discussion with the guy who put together his respect thread [nice work, by the way.] it wasn't meant to spiral into a deathstroke v. flash/nightwing/batgirl/teams type of thing. i just meant to point out that combat speed and traveling speed aren't necessarily the same thing, or even correlated, in certain instances.
and i took it to mean that even though wally's infinitely faster, slade can still stick him when he needs to. planning + 90% brain use + quick-as-shit reaction time [he set off the c4 as soon as wally moved] = slade sticking wally. not that he should, given who wally is and what he's done, but that he can. combat speed v. traveling speed.
Originally posted by Disappear
i'm not trying to take away from wally's feats, especially in discussion with the guy who put together his respect thread [nice work, by the way.] it wasn't meant to spiral into a deathstroke v. flash/nightwing/batgirl/teams type of thing. i just meant to point out that combat speed and traveling speed aren't necessarily the same thing, or even correlated, in certain instances.and i took it to mean that even though wally's infinitely faster, slade can still stick him when he needs to. planning + 90% brain use + quick-as-shit reaction time [he set off the c4 as soon as wally moved] = slade sticking wally. not that he should, given who wally is and what he's done, but that he can. combat speed v. traveling speed.
I don’t remember asking for completely reasonable response. 😠
Originally posted by h1a8
There is interstellar space and intergalactic space. Assuming that SS doesn't travel in hyperspace to achieve FTL speeds, SS possibly travels nowhere near an asteroid field when traveling above C. If he does then he knew beforehand where the asteroid field is and avoided it altogether. And he possibly only dodges asteroids when under C.
Traveling in hyperspace is an assumption. Only dodging space debris and bodies when under C is an assumption. Traveling nowhere near an asteroid field when above C is an assumption. There is a difference between assuming, as you have done, and inference from known and constantly recurring facts.
Yes, there is interstellar and intergalactic space, neither of which is exceptionally useful here because it is pretty obvious that a herald of Galactus does plenty of work within galaxies. As for the density of said galaxies, no one knows, although it is a safe bet that there are some markedly denser than ours.
I would like to see the scans that you mentioned.
Originally posted by h1a8 Yes, but one feat proves nothing remember? SS has some pretty low feats as well. The one you gave is outside his average by far. Even his other high feats (like some you just listed) isn't on par with that one. You should have stated your point differently.
That was in response to you asking for a scan with regards to SS avoiding asteroids. A fair enough parallel. Plenty of SS reaction scans have been posted on the board over the past few days. Plenty enough to establish such feats as within his reach in normal situations. If by pretty low feats you mean getting hit by slower characters, the same situation applies to all speedsters.
Originally posted by h1a8
I already did, remember? The official bios and the scan proves it. Just because you see SS traveling in the IG feat doesn't mean he wasn't in hyperspace. What does hyperspace even look like? Who cares? It can be invisible for all we know. Or the artist could simply just show SS traveling in it without having to draw it.
That single scan that stated he was reaching warp speed, which is unquantified in comics? The same hyperspace that I cannot recall being applied in comics? Simply put, you assuming that SS might have been in hyperspace doesn't cut it with me. I like assuming that purple mushrooms with suspenders and tophats exist in unseen regions as well. Doesn't mean it holds any water. A person who likes to speak of science should embrace this without me pointing it out.
Originally posted by h1a8
You are not getting me. Combat speed is relative to who you are fighting. Spiderman should have awful 1. when compared to Superman but great 1. when compared to a mere human. In other words, Superman, WW, Spider-man, Wolverine, and SS, and many others have criteria 1 relative to many. I'm sure there are plenty of scans verifying that each one has 1 relative to someone.
Reread what I said. You assuming that Doomsday is flash-level because of his speed relative to a GL or Booster Gold is fallacious. Nothing else matters.
Originally posted by h1a8
I understand. You are right here.
Right.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Traveling in hyperspace is an assumption. Only dodging space debris and bodies when under C is an assumption. Traveling nowhere near an asteroid field when above C is an assumption. There is a difference between assuming, as you have done, and inference from known and constantly recurring facts.
I meant space between stars (within a galaxy) vs. space between planets and their stars (where asteroids exist). The Intergalactic space term was a mistake I think.
Yes, there is interstellar and intergalactic space, neither of which is exceptionally useful here because it is pretty obvious that a herald of Galactus does plenty of work within galaxies. As for the density of said galaxies, no one knows, although it is a safe bet that there are some markedly denser than ours.
And plenty of scans were posted to show WW's speed, strength, and skill. Yet you insist that we go on averages. And high order FTL reactions dwarfs plain light speed reactions. The former is needed (along with instant acceleration speed) to dodge asteroids at speeds far above C.That was in response to you asking for a scan with regards to SS avoiding asteroids. A fair enough parallel. Plenty of SS reaction scans have been posted on the board over the past few days. Plenty enough to establish such feats as within his reach in normal situations. If by pretty low feats you mean getting hit by slower characters, the same situation applies to all speedsters.
When using words, one cannot go off their own meaning of the word(s) but the exact meaning of the one(s) who created it. Otherwise, it is impossible to communicate with your audience. Warp speed travel is the same as travel through hyperspace (or Subspace). Warp speed begins after C. The official bios even state that SS travels through hyperspace when traveling above C.
That single scan that stated he was reaching warp speed, which is unquantified in comics? The same hyperspace that I cannot recall being applied in comics? Simply put, you assuming that SS might have been in hyperspace doesn't cut it with me. I like assuming that purple mushrooms with suspenders and tophats exist in unseen regions as well. Doesn't mean it holds any water. A person who likes to speak of science should embrace this without me pointing it out.
It may be fallacious but I accept it as the truth. Now I still have a point even if I decide to not accept that DD is faster than flash. The point is he will still stomp Cable before he can react. Flash-like speed or not, he is fast enough to do it.
Reread what I said. You assuming that Doomsday is flash-level because of his speed relative to a GL or Booster Gold is fallacious. Nothing else matters.
Originally posted by h1a8
Since SS dodging asteroids above C cannot be inferred then it is an assumption as well.
SImply put, we have seen SS travel above C many times in space, and his role as a herald puts him within galaxies, where asteroid belts exist. It isn't an assumption so much as a logical conclusion. Plenty of other feats pertaining to his reactions have been posted recently.
Originally posted by h1a8
I meant space between stars (within a galaxy) vs. space between planets and their stars (where asteroids exist). The Intergalactic space term was a mistake I think.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by h1a8
And plenty of scans were posted to show WW's speed, strength, and skill. Yet you insist that we go on averages. And high order FTL reactions dwarfs plain light speed reactions. The former is needed (along with instant acceleration speed) to dodge asteroids at speeds far above C.
I'm not going through the logic behind going on averages with you again. As far as WW goes, SS has similar or superior reaction feats to her, along with much higher travel speed. I don't see why you're bringing her up again, unless it is to fulfil my request for evidence of criteria (1).
The feat I gave you is evidence enough of SS' mental capacities. Dodging an armada's laser fire and neutralising a laser beam at close range show FTL reactions at the very very least.
Originally posted by h1a8
When using words, one cannot go off their own meaning of the word(s) but the exact meaning of the one(s) who created it. Otherwise, it is impossible to communicate with your audience. Warp speed travel is the same as travel through hyperspace (or Subspace). Warp speed begins after C. The official bios even state that SS travels through hyperspace when traveling above C.
I have already mentioned that pseudo-scientific and pop-culture terms are free for artistic interpretation in a previous debate. As I mentioned, showing me that hyperspace is used and results in a medium in which the speedster cannot be hit would make me concede the point. Otherwise, I don't see why star trek vocabulary is taken to be the gospel here.
Originally posted by h1a8
It may be fallacious but I accept it as the truth. Now I still have a point even if I decide to not accept that DD is faster than flash. The point is he will still stomp Cable before he can react. Flash-like speed or not, he is fast enough to do it.
That isn't the point I'm debating against, in the other thread, and certainly not here.
If it is fallacious but you accept it as the truth, that really is all she said, in my book.
If you could move faster than you could react, you would be crashing into things all the time.
It's canon that Surfer can react at least in the nanosecond range, and he has circled Deathurge and dodged his attacks at faster than light, fended off a speedblitz by the lightspeed Ganymede, searched the entire earth in a few seconds, etc.
Really, I'm not aware of any characters in fiction who can move faster than they can react. That would make their super speed practically worthless.
Originally posted by OualladaThe conclusion doesn't follow the premises. How does being able to travel above C automatically gives you the power to dodge asteroids while above C? I can run about 20mph but if i try to dodge random obsticles, that are within 5ft of each other, at that speed then I will fail miserably. You need both the necessary reflexes and necessary instant acceleration to change directions. And this is assuming that SS isn't in hyperspace when above C.
SImply put, we have seen SS travel above C many times in space, and his role as a herald puts him within galaxies, where asteroid belts exist. It isn't an assumption so much as a logical conclusion. Plenty of other feats pertaining to his reactions have been posted recently.
I'm not going through the logic behind going on averages with you again. As far as WW goes, SS has similar or superior reaction feats to her, along with much higher travel speed. I don't see why you're bringing her up again, unless it is to fulfil my request for evidence of criteria (1).
The feat I gave you is evidence enough of SS' mental capacities. Dodging an armada's laser fire and neutralising a laser beam at close range show FTL reactions at the very very least.
Then WW beats WWH any day of the week. Was it you who was arguing with me about that?
Yet you insist that we go on averages. And close range is an opinion. I consider close range to be within 10ft. SS blocking a beam of energy from beyond 10ft is only considered light speed reflexes and not FTL ones. The armada thing may be FTL reflexes though (but not nearly on the level of traveling 100C or more in space dodging asteroids). And even so it isn't SS's average, right?
It makes no sense for someone to use a definition of a word in a different manner than what everyone in the world knows it to be. It is even sillier to assume that a writer would do this.
I have already mentioned that pseudo-scientific and pop-culture terms are free for artistic interpretation in a previous debate. As I mentioned, showing me that hyperspace is used and results in a medium in which the speedster cannot be hit would make me concede the point. Otherwise, I don't see why star trek vocabulary is taken to be the gospel here.
If I believe it to be fallacious then I wouldn't accept it. But no human is perfect.If it is fallacious but you accept it as the truth, that really is all she said, in my book.
Originally posted by Endless MikeFalse! You just avoid trying to go through things that you can't at a particular speed. For example, you wouldn't see a rational person running at 20mph through random obsticles that are within 5 feet of each other. Either that person would have to slow down or they would have to hit an obstacle.
If you could move faster than you could react, you would be crashing into things all the time.
False! It is unknown whether SS was moving faster or at the speed of light. And if so then nanosecond reflexes is about light speed reflexes and not 100C or more reflexes.
It's canon that Surfer can react at least in the nanosecond range, and he has circled Deathurge and dodged his attacks at faster than light, fended off a speedblitz by the lightspeed Ganymede, searched the entire earth in a few seconds, etc.
Your logic here is wrong. Reaction doesn't equal speed. Distance plays a part, as proven in the above example. Also reactions are only the half of it. One must be able to chance directions in sufficient time.
Really, I'm not aware of any characters in fiction who can move faster than they can react. That would make their super speed practically worthless.
Originally posted by h1a8Let's do a little math...
False! It is unknown whether SS was moving faster or at the speed of light. And if so then nanosecond reflexes is about light speed reflexes and not 100C or more reflexes.
Originally posted by darthgoober
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/48/marvelcomicspresents001fk4.jpg
On panel, it seems as if he swung his straight arms from behind himself to above his head. Put another way, SS's fists traveled about 6 feet. That's 6 feet in (less than) nanosec time.
The speed of light is about 182,000 miles/sec, or nearly 1 billion feet/sec. Light travels less than 1 foot in nanosec time.
The Surfer moved his fists minimally 6 times faster than light.
Not a bad guess, h1a8.
Originally posted by Mindship
Let's do a little math...The Surfer says in the fourth panel: "A nano-second more and I shall be thus encumbered for all eternity." In the fifth panel he says: "But that nano-second will not pass." This implies he completed his action in less than nanosec time, ie, he did what he did before the second nanosec could pass. What exactly did he do in that time?
On panel, it seems as if he swung his straight arms from behind himself to above his head. Put another way, SS's fists traveled about 6 feet. That's 6 feet in (less than) nanosec time.
The speed of light is about 182,000 miles/sec, or nearly 1 billion feet/sec. Light travels less than 1 foot in nanosec time.
The Surfer moved his fists minimally 6 times faster than light.
Not a bad guess, h1a8.
Very good indeed! Though I take that scan as hyperbole. But I agree that it was a very small amount of time (just not an actual nano-second).
the petty attempts at diminishing Surfer's 100x FTL reactions are just laughable.
if any of their arguments were applied consistently across the board to other characters, no character would have any usable feats.
Surfer's established speeds are in excess of millions of times the speed of light, his range of vision is something like from one galaxy to another (iirc), thus to travel ANYWHERE at the speeds he is show ON-PANEL travelling at, he would need to be constantly taking in and processing information, because within hundredths of a second he would have passed the horizon of his vision before he set off.
it's is beyond argument, that Surfer possess 100x FTL reaction, processing and analysis abilities.
Originally posted by janus77
the petty attempts at diminishing Surfer's 100x FTL reactions are just laughable.
It's like "hyperspace" or "warp." "Nano-" is trendy technobabble.
Originally posted by Mindship
For the record, I wasn't attempting to diminish SS's speed. Specifically, I was just curious as to what an actual figure would be based on that particular scan. I'm sure that had the writer been familiar with the term "pico-second," we could've just as easily seen that on-panel, in which case the Surfer would've moved his fists minimally at 6000 cee, which certainly would be no violation of his powerset.It's like "hyperspace" or "warp." "Nano-" is trendy technobabble.
I know you've made many cogent arguments that Surfer clearly has >> C reaction speeds.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Why not? We already know he can move that fast.And in order to slow down to avoid hitting something, you have to be able to see it coming in the first place. Speed without equivalent reaction time is useless.
SS can sense the asteroids before he even starts to travel. He just don't see them and react to slow down. Again, more faulty reasoning. Let's say that I can block, catch, or dodge a bullet from 20 feet away. You can clearly say that I have bullet speed reflexes, right? But if the bullet is shot at 10 feet away instead then I fail and get hit. Do you still say I have bullet speed reflexes?
See the problem is that many are equating reflexes to time when they are not equal. Reflexes require both time and distance and not just time alone. Here's a paradox if one uses the term "nanosecond reflexes".
It takes a 100mph baseball a nanosecond to travel 1.47E-7 feet . Thus if I can hit a 100mph baseball then I indeed have nanosecond reflexes.
But if I have nanosecond reflexes then by the same logic I have 1trillionth of a second reflexes and so on.
