John Mclane vs the Joker

FFS, you're ridiculous. Your entire argument is based on you assuming that the Joker could have done this or that; we go off what we see. I can assume that Batman was toying with him and let him get on top because he wanted to position the Joker for a toss out the window, but that would be a dumb assumption, as assumptions are.

What we see is Batman facing the Joker after he's fought several other guys, been attacked by three dogs, has his equipment malfunctioned and then surprised by the Joker. Yet he still wins the fight.

Yes, the Joker has skills, he isn't a match for Batman though; nothing that is shown proves that he is, nothing. His taking out a street thug with a pencil, subduing a fat cop and then whacking Batman a few times with a knife and pipe doesn't cut what Batman is shown doing.

*calms down*.

Look, I'm just going to list my explanations for why I believe that the Joker is on par with Batman:

1. First off, prove that Batman was, in any form, tired or beaten down when he faced the Joker.

2. If the Joker was vastly inferior in comparison to Batman, he would not have surprised him, nor would he have managed to get ANY hits on him.

3. The Joker didn't want to kill Batman, and therefore logically restricted himself from using lethal weaponry and tactics to fight Batman.

4. Even after the dogs were down, and after the Joker was painfully tossed away, Batman and him engaged in fair, hand-to-hand combat. That was perfectly even. If Batman was vastly superior, he would simply have subdued the Joker easily.

5. The Joker pinned him down and had him at his mercy. Even you can't say nothing about the Joker refusing to kill him at that point. You don't get pinned down by a vastly inferior opponent.

6. Unless you're a moron- and Batman is a genius- you don't get surprised and disabled by a significantly lesser opponent.

7. WHAT did Ra's Al Ghul ever do to put him on a level significantly above the Joker?

8. The fact that he managed to use the 'arm-behind-back' move on a trained police officer- and did the same against a street thug- implies that he, at least, has training in H2H, and isn't just a crazy "Beat them up", thug-level combatant.

9. Batman didn't win using his preferred martial arts, but rather resorted to using one of his gadgets, that he hadn't used up until that point.

Okay, so we all agree that Joker is no match for Batman.

Now, could McClane beat Joker in either scenario...well, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
*calms down*.

Good, maybe you'll start thinking logically now.

The scenario has been explained to you repeatedly by several people. The Joker hasn't shown anything that would dictate he could take on Batman in a straight up fight, considering he failed when he fought him while having several advantages.

Imagine if they met in a room and prepared to fight ( Joker with his knives and pipe if you like), do you really think he would stalemate with Batman?

As far as Raj goes, he is the leader of the LOS and he is a trainer of it's men. The various scenes where he is shown teaching Bruce shows he is a highly skilled fighter.

Your "he surprised Batman, he got hits it" isn't proof that he could beat or match Batman either. It just proves that Batman can be hit, but we all knew that already.

Now, where did say that the Joker is no match for Batman?

In addition, prove that Ra's Al Ghul trains all of his men. The fact that he can fight with a sword doesn't make him necessarily uber. Please. You consider scenes where he is sparring with Bruce using swords a good indication of power, but when the Joker gets the upper hand on Bruce in a full-blown brawl, it's irrelevant? Please.

And oh my god. The Joker, for all intents and purposes, defeated Batman, but for the last time, didn't kill him not because Batman did let him do so, but rather because the Joker didn't want to kill him. If anything, that fight is not a good indication of Batman's skills.

You've yet to prove why the Joker fought evenly with Batman without any advantages save for weaponry, how could he surprise him if he was 'vastly inferior', or how Batman never recovered the instant the Joker got the upper hand on him. Or how he resorted to using his gadgets when the Joker pinned him down. Or how the Joker wasn't trying to kill him.

But, whatever. We're all arguing off our memory, here, so I suppose we can all solve the debate when the DvD comes out.

Na, the Joker didn't physically defeat Batman "for all intents and purposes", he also didn't "spiritually win" that fight. I don't have to wait for the DVD, I remember the fight, I paid attention.

You are extremely funny, you'll argue and argue that Joker is some sort of knife master simply because he carries knives on him and got one stab in on Batman, yet Raj Al Ghul showing his prowess with a sword and training the man who becomes the Batman as no indication that he is a skilled fighter. Funny.

Funny, Ra's Al Ghul using a sword in a training sequence makes him 'far superior' to the Joker. Yeah, that makes sense! I suppose the Joker is a punk that would be trashed by any of the random ninja in Begins. Of course!

Nah. I paid attention, too, but you're the one who refuses to, for the last bloody time, refute these facts:

"You've yet to prove why the Joker fought evenly with Batman without any advantages save for weaponry, how could he surprise him if he was 'vastly inferior', or how Batman never recovered the instant the Joker got the upper hand on him. Or how he resorted to using his gadgets when the Joker pinned him down. Or how the Joker wasn't trying to kill him. "

Fail. Instead, you do some sort of odd "I'm smarter than you, you little fanboy!" rant. Smart, heh?

You ignore the fact that the Joker had Batman cornered, subdued, and helpess, and would've easily killed him if that was his intention. Instead, you say "Z0mg Batman owned him!!!!". Whose the one who needs to pay attention more?

Definetly not me.

Why do you constantly act stupid when you can't argue a point? It's rather annoying. I never claimed I was smarter than you, just that I paid attention to the movie.

It's already been stated and re-stated. The Joker temporarily got the upper-hand and he had several advantages going for him when he did. Batman has just fought on several other guys, he fought three dogs and his eye-gear glitched. The Joker getting in a few hits and knocking him down does not not equate to him being Batman's equal in a fight. Simple as that.

Also, you'll use Batman's use of gadgets as proof that he isn't above and beyond the Joker in fighting prowess, but you dismiss that the Joker was using a pipe and a knife, besides the dogs and Batman's previous fights to his advantage. Odd, that.

To answer your question. We know Raj trained Bruce Wayne and Bruce Wayne is a complete badass when it comes to hand-2-hand fighting, that should indicate something of Raj's abilities to you. He is also shown to be very skilled with a sword, another indication of his abilites. He is the leader of the LOS, yet another possible indication of his abilities.

Wait. What?

Originally posted by Impediment
Wait. What?

Dude is arguing that the Joker is equal in fighting prowess to the Batman.

Originally posted by Robtard
Dude is arguing that the Joker is equal in fighting prowess to the Batman.

I lol'd.

In the movie? He's at least close, otherwise he would not have been able to contend with Batman in 1 on 1 combat. Batman is certainly not 'vastly' superior as you like to claim he is.

Now then, considering the vast amount of opposition I'm facing, I'm willing to concede that the Joker, without his weaponry, can't contend with someone of Batman's caliber. That being said, though, using his steel pipe, ingenuity, his knives, sheer brutality, and still good H2H skills, he can definetly hold his own against Batman. Does that seem so ridiculous and far-fetched to you?

Moving on, Batman did not take a single hit in the fight, and there is absolutely no indication- anywhere- of him being tired or somehow unable to utilize his fighting skills to their fullest extent. And besides, even in their short fight when neither had any advantages ('cept for the Joker's pipe), they fought evenly. If Batman was vastly superior to the Joker, HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SURPRISED! HE WOULD'VE EASILY SUBDUED HIM, AND WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PINNED DOWN HELPLESSLY!

As for Ra's, him being the leader of a group of assassins does not mean that he is super uberz. He clearly knows multiple forms of martial arts and is a talented swordsman (extremely skilled? Nothing shows that). That being said, the Joker and Ra's Al Ghul held their own against Batman roughly equally.

In addition, even after being temporary blinded, Batman did NOT gain an advantage on the Joker. If he was so much better than him, he would've.

Yeah. In pure H2H fighting, Batman wins. Count in the Joker's unpredictability, large arsenal of weapons, excellent reflexes, decent H2H skills, and insanity/brutality, the outcome is so much more difficult to predict. Can we at least agree on that?

Master Crimzon! Batman and Ra's >>>>>Joker H2H wise.

Joker has some skill but these two are masters of a numkber of diciplines.

At the party Batman was beating Joker and his thugs until Joker threatened Rachel.

The scednario your refering to he was trying to handle three humungous dogs. It's easy to get hits in on someone while there currently being bombarded by three "big" dogs. Also Batman's sonar got ****ed up. HE COULDN'T SEE!

Did you see the Batman vs those 4 ninjas/Ra's video Robtard posted. Joker cannot duplicate that feat. 😐

Dude...Joker is not as skilled as Batman in fighting.

Hence the dogs and pipe.

And I don't like how my post was ignored Robtard. estahuh

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx

And I don't like how my post was ignored Robtard. estahuh

Sorry, wasn't intentional. I am tired of debating the Joker vs John thing though.

So am I honestly. There really isn't anything else to be brought to this debate. Every logical point has been made.

Oh, god. I already conceded that in pure hand-to-hand, the Joker isn't a match for Batman:

"Yeah. In pure H2H fighting, Batman wins. Count in the Joker's unpredictability, large arsenal of weapons, excellent reflexes, decent H2H skills, and insanity/brutality, the outcome is so much more difficult to predict."

Hence the pipe. Well, there's no reason for them, if they fought again, for the Joker not to use weaponry.

I've noticed that you are constantly referring to the fact that "after" batman fended off the dogs the Joker attacked him and "got a few hits in".

Um... wat? You do realize that Joker pounced on him as soon as he knocked the last dog away, right? He was utterly disoriented. He was knocked to the floor once, and as he tossed away the last dog and was getting to his feet the Joker attacked him; he had zero time to regain his composure in the slightest, so at that point anyone would have been able to "get a few hits in". It's not like Batman threw off the dogs, stood up to his feet, entered a fighting stance and focused his attention on the Joker, then he was just overwhelmed...

*sigh*

One: I never said the Joker overwhelmed Batman. I said that he has a shot of beating him in individual combat. Is that enough?

Two: I'm willing to concede this argument. Considering the number of people against me, and the fact that I only saw the movie once, I must be missing something.

Three: Out of argument. Say, the Joker and Batman meet up on some random street. The Joker has his knives, his pipe, his H2H skills, and his knife-kick. Batman has all of his gadgets and his hand-to-hand skills. Both try to kill each other. Who do you think will win?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
*sigh*

One: I never said the Joker overwhelmed Batman. I said that he has a shot of beating him in individual combat. Is that enough?

Overwhelmed was just poor word choice by me, sorry. I disagree though.

Two: I'm willing to concede this argument. Considering the number of people against me, and the fact that I only saw the movie once, I must be missing something.

I'd give you a Sun Tsu quote about not retreating or something, but I'm on so many pain killers right not I can't think straight.

Three: Out of argument. Say, the Joker and Batman meet up on some random street. The Joker has his knives, his pipe, his H2H skills, and his knife-kick. Batman has all of his gadgets and his hand-to-hand skills. Both try to kill each other. Who do you think will win?

Batman...