Aotc anakin and obiwan (in tip top shape this time) vs Aotc Dooku

Started by Man of Christ3 pages

Aotc anakin and obiwan (in tip top shape this time) vs Aotc Dooku

I am revisiting the aotc duel and placing the jedi in aotc against dooku but my question is,

would they have done better against dooku if they were in tip top shape.

what i mean bu that is that the jedi had a number of things working against them

heres the list

1) both were exhausted from geonosian battle
2) both had unfamiliar lightsabers
3) anakin ws ticked off becase of padme so that destroyed thier teamwork strategy
4) obi wan was distracted by a wounded anakin
5) they expended a lot of energy to chase dooku down

if none of these factors existed and the aotc team had a fresh start against dooku with thier own lightsabers and they co-operate properly, how would they do?

They would still die.

It wouldn't matter much. Anakin wasn't rash because of Padme so much as it was "all the Jedi that Dooku killed."
Unfamiliar lightsabers is kind of a lame excuse. Sure they may have preferences for their hilts, but any Jedi worth their salt can be extremely proficient with any lightsaber.
Also, the force can help to replenish lost energies and revitalize stamina. Dooku was just too good for them at this point. Had Anakin not just rushed in like that, i believe they would've done better (Anakin did better than OB1 anyway) but would have still been killed.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
It wouldn't matter much. Anakin wasn't rash because of Padme so much as it was "all the Jedi that Dooku killed."
Unfamiliar lightsabers is kind of a lame excuse. Sure they may have preferences for their hilts, but any Jedi worth their salt can be extremely proficient with any lightsaber.
Also, the force can help to replenish lost energies and revitalize stamina. Dooku was just too good for them at this point. Had Anakin not just rushed in like that, i believe they would've done better (Anakin did better than OB1 anyway) but would have still been killed.

Nice idea.

They would have done better? Sure. Oh wait. We've seen in RotS how it went when they tried to attack Dooku together. Obi-Wan was force choked and tossed out of the fight and Anakin did eat Dooku's boot. Conclusion: Dooku was even too good for them 3 years past AotC. And without his attempt to talk Anakin over to the talk side (by telling the young Jedi to unleash his anger), he would again have destroyed them pretty much instead of - literally - losing his head in that situation.

dooku was outclassed in the rots duel

Originally posted by Man of Christ
dooku was outclassed in the rots duel

Oh? When did that happen, huh? When he taunted Anakin into Dark Side instakill mode while not being allowed to actually kill the guy? Whoopie.

You do notice that Dooku could easily have killed Anakin instead of dropping the metal structure on the - already knocked out - Kenobi, considering how Anakin was lying on the ground, defenceless? You do realize that Dooku could have attempted to blast Anakin with force lightning (considering he still fought him with one hand and has used that tactic in various other duels)?

Yup. Sounds much like getting "outclassed". See. I can also "outclass" Babe Ruth when it comes to playing Baseball, when he enters the field sitting in a wheel-chair with both of his arms tied to his back.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh? When did that happen, huh? When he taunted Anakin into Dark Side instakill mode while not being allowed to actually kill the guy? Whoopie.

You do notice that Dooku could easily have killed Anakin instead of dropping the metal structure on the - already knocked out - Kenobi, considering how Anakin was lying on the ground, defenceless? You do realize that Dooku could have attempted to blast Anakin with force lightning (considering he still fought him with one hand and has used that tactic in various other duels)?

Yup. Sounds much like getting "outclassed". See. I can also "outclass" Babe Ruth when it comes to playing Baseball, when he enters the field sitting in a wheel-chair with both of his arms tied to his back.

Oh totally Nai. So lets ignore the novelization for a second. Dooku apparently let Anakin win correct? Oh wait, I guess the novelization and the movie both prove you wrong. I'm glad you're an authority on Dooku's motives or Dooku's mental state but the fight was evident in both the movie and the book. Anakin became enraged and proceeded to wtfpwn Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh totally Nai. So lets ignore the novelization for a second. Dooku apparently let Anakin win correct? Oh wait, I guess the novelization and the movie both prove you wrong. I'm glad you're an authority on Dooku's motives or Dooku's mental state but the fight was evident in both the movie and the book. Anakin became enraged and proceeded to wtfpwn Dooku.

Trying to play the smartass again, Sexy? I've thought that, up to this point in time, you'd have learned that, to play this role with a decent amount of success, you do actually need to be smart. That's why you always utterly fail in your attempts to do the job.

a)
Did I say that Dooku let Anakin win? No? WTF? Then you should probably stop trying to put words in my mouth. I just said that Dooku was obviously not doing all he could to kill Anakin - at least not throughout the entire fight.

b)
The movie proves me wrong? The movie proves what exactly wrong, DS? Does it show Dooku parrying Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously with one hand? Yup. Does it show Dooku controlling the entire fight up to the point where he taunts Anakin to unleash his anger (*hint* force pwning Obi-Wan, kicking Anakin across the place *hint*)? Yeah. Does Dooku waste a nice opportunity to defeat Skywalker by dropping the metal structure on the already knocked out Kenobi? Yup. So what statement of mine is actually proven wrong by the movie?

c)
I don't need to be an authority on Dooku's motives or his mental state. The properties of this fight are written down in the novel. You can't use a source to claim that Anakin is simply superior to Dooku and then ignore the very same source, when it sites something that obviously contradicts your opinion. Of course you can totally ignore the novel and go by the movie. In this case you just have to explain the following things:

1) Why does Dooku obviously control the entire fight when engaging two Jedi, yet he's overpowered by one? Explanation: Anakin was tapping into the Dark Side.

2) Would that have happend if Dooku didn't taunt him to do so? Yes? No? And if not: Would Anakin still have been able to overcome the Sith Lord? And why did Dooku taunt Anakin at all, knowing that this would make his opponent stronger?

3) Why did Dooku decide to perform a totally useless move (burrying Obi-Wan under the metal structure) instead of finishing Anakin off?

4) If Dooku was aware of the fact that this should have been a duel for the apprentice position (as some people here do claim), why does he present his "WTF?" Look, when Sidious orders Anakin to kill the Count? Do you think that Dooku was not aware of the fact that a fight to the death ends with the death of one of the contestants?

Or you can accept the fact that Dooku didn't give Anakin all he could (because of the orders he received from Sidious) and even weakened his own position further by taunting his enemy to use the Dark Side (making Anakin stronger). Of course the Count might have suffered from spontaneous amnesia, so he didn't remember that using the Dark Side will make somebody stronger in terms of combat. Because there is no other explanation why he would taunt Anakin to raise his power-level when he did indeed want to defeat Anakin there.

Hey, Nai, good to see you still post here!

Originally posted by Borbarad
I just said that Dooku was obviously not doing all he could to kill Anakin - at least not throughout the entire fight.

But during the one-on-one portion of the duel, where the NEC claims that Dooku was "fighting for his life" is where he was giving his all against Anakin and lost (hence "outclassed"😉. As well, the novelization writes that Dooku was no longer playing games and that it was "time to kill" after he realized that he could die (which happened even before he engaged Anakin solo), so for the portion that Dooku wasn't putting full effort into the fight - neither were Anakin or Kenobi.

The movie proves me wrong? The movie proves what exactly wrong, DS? Does it show Dooku parrying Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously with one hand? Yup.

I wonder how hard that would've been exactly at a time when they were both employing ploy forms.

Does it show Dooku controlling the entire fight up to the point where he taunts Anakin to unleash his anger (*hint* force pwning Obi-Wan, kicking Anakin across the place *hint*)? Yeah.

The movie may give the impression that he was controlling the battle, but take notice that it cuts away when Anakin and Dooku are fighting on the stairs. Since we aren't taken back to the duel until he tosses Kenobi around like a ragdoll, the novel should be taken into consideration for that duration of time. And the novel states that Anakin was pushing him on the defensive and kicking his ass heavily even while holding back.

Does Dooku waste a nice opportunity to defeat Skywalker by dropping the metal structure on the already knocked out Kenobi? Yup.

Not quite, see below.

Why does Dooku obviously control the entire fight when engaging two Jedi, yet he's overpowered by one? Explanation: Anakin was tapping into the Dark Side.

Utilizing the dark side would cloud one's mind, yet Anakin's mental state is described as being "crystal clear". This would make no sense if we followed your explanation, Nai.

Would that have happend if Dooku didn't taunt him to do so? Yes? No? And if not: Would Anakin still have been able to overcome the Sith Lord?

Would what happen? Anakin outclassing Dooku? According to the novel, yes. I've posted passages from the novel on numerous occasions, but again:

"[...] the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him..." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch. 3).

All of the above occurring during the off-screen period, which suggests they're canonical.

And why did Dooku taunt Anakin at all, knowing that this would make his opponent stronger?[/b]

It didn't make him stronger, Nai. In fact, the novelization states as follows:

"They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch. 3).

Can you point out where exactly it states that Dooku knew it would make Anakin more powerful? As far as was indicated it had the opposite effect, that is until Anakin realized how to focus his negative emotions into "weapons".

Why did Dooku decide to perform a totally useless move (burrying Obi-Wan under the metal structure) instead of finishing Anakin off?

The reason for that action is answered by the novel too, which quite simply states that Dooku didn't want to take any chances.

Or you can accept the fact that Dooku didn't give Anakin all he could (because of the orders he received from Sidious)

Orders from Sidious are more important than self-preservation? I doubt it, especially considering Dooku's character.

and even weakened his own position further by taunting his enemy to use the Dark Side (making Anakin stronger).

Initially, he actually gained the advantage because of it.

Of course the Count might have suffered from spontaneous amnesia, so he didn't remember that using the Dark Side will make somebody stronger in terms of combat.

Or he was trying to break Anakin down mentally by using Dun Möch, but it backfired on him - which is supported by an official source rather than your interpretation of what he expected.

Because there is no other explanation why he would taunt Anakin to raise his power-level when he did indeed want to defeat Anakin there.

He taunted him so Skywalker would lose his advantage, which did happen. The problem was - as stated above - that the end result didn't turn out the way the Count had planned.

Originally posted by Advent

But during the one-on-one portion of the duel, where the NEC claims that Dooku was "fighting for his life" is where he was giving his all against Anakin and lost (hence "outclassed"😉.

I actually wanted to type that to justify anakins victory but meh you already done so.

Good to see you again Advent, and thanks for clearing up all of that, I cannot seem to find my copy of ROTS.

Nai, your rants about other people's intelligence (especially after reading Star Wars according to Nai), are downright hilarious. I didn't know Germans could be so humorous.

Originally posted by Advent
But during the one-on-one portion of the duel, where the NEC claims that Dooku was "fighting for his life" is where he was giving his all against Anakin and lost (hence "outclassed"😉. As well, the novelization writes that Dooku was no longer playing games and that it was "time to kill" after he realized that he could die (which happened even before he engaged Anakin solo), so for the portion that Dooku wasn't putting full effort into the fight - neither were Anakin or Kenobi.

The point is that he wasted several chances to kill Skywalker before that happens. That he, after "playing" with him and Kenobi and taunting Anakin into using the Dark Side suddenly goes "Oops. I'm totally f*cked", doesn't mean much here. Has he went into the fight with all he could from the beginning on and had he used his chances instead of wasting them, both Jedi would have died. Without a doubt.


I wonder how hard that would've been exactly at a time when they were both employing ploy forms.

Sorry, Advent. But that did never happen. The movie interpretation overwrites the novel and both Jedi in the movie do start off with their regular forms. Anakin starts with a two-handed overhead strike (clear Djem So movement) while Kenobi starts with his regular Soresu opening. You can either believe that or assume that both Jedi are "faking forms" until the point where one of them is knocked out of the fight and the other one lies on the ground helpless. Doesn't sound too smart on their side.


The movie may give the impression that he was controlling the battle, but take notice that it cuts away when Anakin and Dooku are fighting on the stairs. Since we aren't taken back to the duel until he tosses Kenobi around like a ragdoll, the novel should be taken into consideration for that duration of time. And the novel states that Anakin was pushing him on the defensive and kicking his ass heavily even while holding back.

What are you talking about, Advent? The movie cuts away from Anakin and Dooku for about 15 seconds in which we see Kenobi walking up the other side of the stairs and destroy the two droids there. When he arrives at the top, we see Dooku and Anakin standing there and Dooku instantly force pwns Kenobi. And what is descriped in the novel, Advent, happens before Dooku does acttualy move up the stairs. I didn't Anakin or Obi-Wan "kicking his ass" anywhere in that time in the movie.


Utilizing the dark side would cloud one's mind, yet Anakin's mental state is described as being "crystal clear". This would make no sense if we followed your explanation, Nai.

Really, Advent. How can you quote that words and, as it seems, ignore everything standing right next to them in the novel?

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out
from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.
When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.
His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind.
On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

Yeah. His mind is crystal clear, because he now projected all his Dark Emotions to the outside, to his own fight with Dooku. He still used his emotions, his dark feelings, to overcome Dooku. He simply controlled them for a brief amount of time instead of being controlled by them. The result, however, is still the same: He used the Dark Side by using his rage, anger, fear, grief against his enemy.


Would what happen? Anakin outclassing Dooku? According to the novel, yes. I've posted passages from the novel on numerous occasions, but again:

"[...] the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him..." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch. 3).

All of the above occurring during the off-screen period, which suggests they're canonical.

Advent. You may probably want to read the novel again and watch the movie again. The only time period where we don't see Anakin and Dooku fighting is when we see Obi-Wan taking out the droids. Everything else happens onscreen. And the passages you've quoted are obviously describing the fight after Kenobi has already been taken out of the fight and after Dooku has taunted Anakin to use the Dark Side. So. You didn't answer my question.


It didn't make him stronger, Nai. In fact, the novelization states as follows:

"They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch. 3).

Can you point out where exactly it states that Dooku knew it would make Anakin more powerful? As far as was indicated it had the opposite effect, that is until Anakin realized how to focus his negative emotions into "weapons".

It finally did make him stronger, Advent. You simply can't deny that. The initial effect might have been a different one. Still Dooku must have known what the Dark Side works like, as he had taken the way down to the Dark Side himself. He might have thought that Anakin wouldn't have been able to utilize his Dark Side emotions. Still he taunts him by saying that he can sense Anakin's dark emotions and then ask "Why don't you use[/b them?" Not to mention that Lucas confirmed in the RotS commentary that Dooku, with that, was trying to draw Anakin over to the Dark Side. So obviously he [b]wanted Anakin to utilize his dark feelings - he just underestimated the effect.


The reason for that action is answered by the novel too, which quite simply states that Dooku didn't want to take any chances.

No. There is no reason for that action, Advent. The force choking and the flight through the room, hitting that metal structure, had already knocked Kenobi out. Dooku caused no additional damage with dropping the metal structure down on the Jedi. Even if he should have assumed that Kenobi might get up once more after that attack - turning on Skywalker, whom he had send flying into the next wall, to get rid of that problem first would have been the more logical decision.


Initially, he actually gained the advantage because of it.

According to the novel, Advent. In the movie, once he taunted Anakin, he gets forced backwards and finally disarmed by the young Jedi in less than 15 seconds.


Or he was trying to break Anakin down mentally by using Dun Möch, but it backfired on him - which is supported by an official source rather than your interpretation of what he expected.

Telling somebody that he shall use his fear and anger doesn't qualify as an application of Dun Möch, imho.


He taunted him so Skywalker would lose his advantage, which did happen. The problem was - as stated above - that the end result didn't turn out the way the Count had planned.

See Advent. We are once confronted with the problem that what does happen in the novel doesn't happen in the film. The "taunt" in the novel, is this:

"I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

Yes. That does qualify as Dun Möch, obviously and the reaction Anakin shows to this is "confusion", which places him in a position of disadvantage. In the movie, however, Dooku is saying that here:

"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them."

I think that is a notable difference. He's not attacking Anakin as a person like he does in the novel. He is pretty much telling him to use his emotions. He wants Anakin to use the Dark Side to eventually defeat him, because he wants to turn the young Jedi to the Dark Side, as confirmed by George Lucas himself in the RotS commentary. He's pretty much doing the same with Anakin that Sidious did to Luke in RotJ - with the difference that Dooku didn't have Vader to save his life (which he did expect from Sidious as shown in the novel), but instead Sidious betrays him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good to see you again Advent, and thanks for clearing up all of that, I cannot seem to find my copy of ROTS.

Translation: I don't have the source material which doesn't keep me from talking.


Nai, your rants about other people's intelligence (especially after reading Star Wars according to Nai), are downright hilarious. I didn't know Germans could be so humorous.

Wow. Considering that you have still not been able to point out any flaw in my argument (the status quo here), and you still keep attempting to play the smartass and flame me, actually just leads to the conclusion that you're even dumber than I previously thought. So, Doofy, do you have anything else to say? Maybe something that is related to the topic of the debate here? Otherwise you can go back to the sand box and built yourself a sweet little castle there, just to find out how it is to have a place where your can open your mouth without holding yourself up to ridicule. I'm pretty sure that will be a totally new experience for you.

LOL @ Doofy. Nai, don't ***** about people flaming you. Your opening salvo in the Sith vs. Jedi thread (which I'm about to address) wastes no opportunity in bashing me. House doesn't condone hypocrisy, Nai.

Edit: Oh, and since you mention source material, this is Anakin Skywalker & Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku as interpretted by the screenplay.

DOOKU lunges at the JEDI and they fall back . . .

COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.
ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU. OBI-WAN reaches the top of the stairs, destroying TWO SUPER BATTLE DROIDS. COUNT DOOKU holds OBI-WAN in the air using the Force as he turns and kicks ANAKIN out of frame. OBI-WAN is choking.
ANAKIN hits the archway.
DOOKU sends OBI-WAN flying. The Jedi tumbles to the lower level unconscious. COUNT DOOKU spins around again and, using the Force, causes a section of the balcony to drop onto OBI-WAN. ANAKIN spins and kicks COUNT DOOKU, sending him over the balcony. ANAKIN Jumps, following him down to the main floor. COUNT DOOKU and ANAKIN continue the fight.

COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don’t use them.

Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense.
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.

Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense! Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands. The Jedi catches the lightsaber as it drops from the severed Sith Lord's hand. COUNT DOOKU stumbles to the floor as ANAKIN puts the two lightsabers to his neck. PALPATINE is grinning as he watches COUNT DOOKU's defeat.

So, we have confirmations that Kenobi and Dooku tire as Anakin only becomes stronger. The movie also shows Dooku being pressed back the entire time. And where did Lucas say that Dooku wanted to turn Anakin and went easy on him?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is that he wasted several chances to kill Skywalker before that happens. That he, after "playing" with him and Kenobi [b]and taunting Anakin into using the Dark Side suddenly goes "Oops. I'm totally f*cked", doesn't mean much here. Has he went into the fight with all he could from the beginning on and had he used his chances instead of wasting them, both Jedi would have died. Without a doubt.[/B]
Well then that's a testament to his overall combat skills then. You're right, he should have known better and since he didn't the better fighter won. Thanks.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry, Advent. But that did never happen. The movie interpretation overwrites the novel and both Jedi in the movie do start off with their regular forms. Anakin starts with a two-handed overhead strike (clear Djem So movement) while Kenobi starts with his regular Soresu opening. You can either believe that or assume that both Jedi are "faking forms" until the point where one of them is knocked out of the fight and the other one lies on the ground helpless. Doesn't sound too smart on their side.
I didn't know the movie had subtitles indicating that they were using their chosen, mastered forms. And apparently, Yoda was using Djem So, as he attacked Sidious, and Dooku for that matter, with a "two-handed strike." Your interpretation of the moves are irrelevant. Doesn't matter what they "look" like.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. His mind is crystal clear, because he now projected all his Dark Emotions to the outside, to his own fight with Dooku. He still used his emotions, his dark feelings, to overcome Dooku. He simply controlled them for a brief amount of time instead of being controlled by them. The result, however, is still the same: He used the Dark Side by using his rage, anger, fear, grief against his enemy.
If his mind was that clear, then he couldn't be focusing on anything other than the duel with Dooku, which wouldn't be the case had he been fueled by the dark side.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Advent. You may probably want to read the novel again and watch the movie again. The only time period where we don't see Anakin and Dooku fighting is when we see Obi-Wan taking out the droids. Everything else happens onscreen. And the passages you've quoted are obviously describing the fight after Kenobi has already been taken out of the fight and after Dooku has taunted Anakin to use the Dark Side. So. You didn't answer my question.
Doesn't change the fact that he said, as you've acknowledged, "but you don't use them." For someone whose mind is "clear as a crystal bell," I doubt that little bit of taunting or Don Moch would be enough to set Anakin off.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It finally did make him stronger, Advent. You simply can't deny that. The initial effect might have been a different one. Still Dooku must have known what the Dark Side works like, as he had taken the way down to the Dark Side himself. He might have thought that Anakin wouldn't have been able to utilize his Dark Side emotions. Still he taunts him by saying that he can sense Anakin's dark emotions and then ask "Why don't you [b]use[/b them?" Not to mention that Lucas confirmed in the RotS commentary that Dooku, with that, was trying to draw Anakin over to the Dark Side. So obviously he [b]wanted Anakin to utilize his dark feelings - he just underestimated the effect.[/B]
Just cause he wants that, doesn't mean it happened. I'm sure he didn't want to lose his hands and head, but he did. And of course he wanted him to turn. If he did, him and Dooku could likely overthrow Palps.

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. There is no reason for that action, Advent. The force choking and the flight through the room, hitting that metal structure, had already knocked Kenobi out. Dooku caused no additional damage with dropping the metal structure down on the Jedi. Even if he should have assumed that Kenobi might get up once more after that attack - turning on Skywalker, whom he had send flying into the next wall, to get rid of that problem first would have been the more logical decision.
So then Dooku made an illogical decision, therefore not making him as good a combatant as Anakin who simply "decided" to kill Dooku. Either way, he was outclassed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
According to the novel, Advent. In the movie, once he taunted Anakin, he gets forced backwards and finally disarmed by the young Jedi in less than 15 seconds.
Ok, then using only the movie as a source, prove that Anakin used the dark side to get stronger.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Telling somebody that he shall use his fear and anger doesn't qualify as an application of Dun Möch, imho.
Well as I've seen you tell people in the past, opinions don't really matter here, do they? And as i said before, just because that's what Dooku wanted, didn't make it so. If Anakin did everything Dooku wanted, then he wouldn't have been embarrassed like that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
See Advent. We are once confronted with the problem that what does happen in the novel doesn't happen in the film. The "taunt" in the novel, is this:

"I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

Yes. That does qualify as Dun Möch, obviously and the reaction Anakin shows to this is "confusion", which places him in a position of disadvantage. In the movie, however, Dooku is saying that here:

"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them."

I think that is a notable difference. He's not attacking Anakin as a person like he does in the novel. He is pretty much telling him to [b]use his emotions. He wants Anakin to use the Dark Side to eventually defeat him, because he wants to turn the young Jedi to the Dark Side, as confirmed by George Lucas himself in the RotS commentary. He's pretty much doing the same with Anakin that Sidious did to Luke in RotJ - with the difference that Dooku didn't have Vader to save his life (which he did expect from Sidious as shown in the novel), but instead Sidious betrays him. [/B]

Doesn't matter. The desired effect was the same which means that it was Don Moch.

Originally posted by Gideon
LOL @ Doofy. Nai, don't ***** about people flaming you. Your opening salvo in the Sith vs. Jedi thread (which I'm about to address) wastes no opportunity in bashing me. House doesn't condone hypocrisy, Nai.

House doesn't condone idiots either, Gideon. It's pretty obvious that I'm simply flaming Sexy. Every halfway intelligent person in the western hemisphere would be able to understand that. So why aren't you capable of doing so? Holy shit.


Edit: Oh, and since you mention source material, this is Anakin Skywalker & Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku as interpretted by the screenplay.

Wow. And there is Gideon with the "I pick what suits my opinion" mode again. So the same screenplay that is wrong and illogical, when it tells us that Yoda disarmed Sidious in their lightsaber fight, is good enough to proof your ideas right, when it comes to the Skywalker and Kenobi VS Dooku fight? Hooray. Either use everything present in a source or don't use the source at all.


So, we have confirmations that Kenobi and Dooku tire as Anakin only becomes stronger. The movie also shows Dooku being pressed back the entire time. And where did Lucas say that Dooku wanted to turn Anakin and went easy on him?

In the RotS commentary, from the point on, where Anakin and Dooku engage in a saber duel.

Lucas: "The main issue here is I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperors assistant or the other Sith could take Jedi and convert them."

Goddamn it. That is the main issue for that particular scene, according to George Lucas himself. And you do want to deny it, still trying to parade around everything - with the exception for the movie itself and Lucas own words - as proof that you're correct with your opinion? You fail once again. The fact remains that Dooku can't go all out on Anakin (which means that he's even ready to kill the dude), while trying to convert him to the Dark Side at the same time, which is what he was trying to do, according to Lucas himself.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well then that's a testament to his overall combat skills then. You're right, he should have known better and since he didn't the better fighter won. Thanks.

According to Lucas, Dooku wanted to convert Anakin to the Dark Side. And thus he can't kill the guy at the same time while trying to archieve that goal.

I didn't know the movie had subtitles indicating that they were using their chosen, mastered forms. And apparently, Yoda was using Djem So, as he attacked Sidious, and Dooku for that matter, with a "two-handed strike." Your interpretation of the moves are irrelevant. Doesn't matter what they "look" like.

In fact that entire "fake forms" don't make any sense, considering that Dooku has already duelled both opponents before. Do you think the guy suffers from alzheimer and has forgotten what forms they were using 3 years before that fight?


If his mind was that clear, then he couldn't be focusing on anything other than the duel with Dooku, which wouldn't be the case had he been fueled by the dark side.

Either stop your attempts to argue around the text or STFU.


Doesn't change the fact that he said, as you've acknowledged, "but you don't use them." For someone whose mind is "clear as a crystal bell," I doubt that little bit of taunting or Don Moch would be enough to set Anakin off.

That was neither taunting nor Dun Möch (which is pretty much the same thing). Dooku pretty much told Anakin what he should do next and Anakin simply decided to follow the advice of the Sith Lord.


So then Dooku made an illogical decision, therefore not making him as good a combatant as Anakin who simply "decided" to kill Dooku. Either way, he was outclassed.

He was "outclassed" because not wanting to kill his opponent but convert him to the Dark Side. By your logic, Vader was "outclassed" by RotJ Luke Skywalker.


Doesn't matter. The desired effect was the same which means that it was Don Moch.

You're really inable to see the difference between an insult thrown at Anakin and a "good advice"? Gosh. So there is no difference between me telling you to "STFU idiot" or saying something like "You might probably want to think about that once more. You have the DVD and the novel. Why don't you use them?" ? Quite a nice way of interpreting statements.

Originally posted by Borbarad
House doesn't condone idiots either, Gideon.

The other House fanboys probably told you that when you tried to join their forum, Nai. Though it is really telling that you didn't deny the accusation of being a hypocrite.

It's pretty obvious that I'm simply flaming Sexy.

Yes, Nai, catch up. That's why I called you a hypocrite.

Every halfway intelligent person in the western hemisphere would be able to understand that. So why aren't you capable of doing so? Holy shit.

The formula is still strong here, I see. Holy shit. Wow. I can still do it. Holy shit.

Wow. And there is Gideon with the "I pick what suits my opinion" mode again. So the same screenplay that is wrong and illogical, when it tells us that Yoda disarmed Sidious in their lightsaber fight, is good enough to proof your ideas right, when it comes to the Skywalker and Kenobi VS Dooku fight? Hooray. Either use everything present in a source or don't use the source at all.

Once again, very telling that you didn't try to argue the point. Meanwhile, as for Yoda vs. Sidious, Yoda disarmed him, owned him with his lightning, and let him go for no reason. That's the problem I had. You keep spitting out more irrelevant misdirections than ever. Desperation is an ugly thing.

In the RotS commentary, from the point on, where Anakin and Dooku engage in a saber duel.

Lucas: "The main issue here is I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperors assistant or the other Sith could take Jedi and convert them."

Goddamn it. That is the [b]main issue for that particular scene, according to George Lucas himself. And you do want to deny it, still trying to parade around everything - with the exception for the movie itself and Lucas own words - as proof that you're correct with your opinion? You fail once again. The fact remains that Dooku can't go all out on Anakin (which means that he's even ready to kill the dude), while trying to convert him to the Dark Side at the same time, which is what he was trying to do, according to Lucas himself. [/B]

LOL, Nai, no one said that Dooku couldn't own Anakin with the Force or that he went into the fight with the desire to kill him. What we said was that he couldn't (and didn't) beat Anakin with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Borbarad
According to Lucas, Dooku wanted to convert Anakin to the Dark Side. And thus he can't kill the guy at the same time while trying to archieve that goal.

There is no point in continuing to try to convert someone when you know that if you don't kill them first, they will kill you.

Originally posted by Borbarad
In fact that entire "fake forms" don't make any sense, considering that Dooku has already duelled both opponents before. Do you think the guy suffers from alzheimer and has forgotten what forms they were using 3 years before that fight?
Ok, and their proficiency with said forms was mediocre at best during AoTC. There's no reason to suspect that they wouldn't adapt other forms, when Dooku himself mastered multiple forms.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Either stop your attempts to argue around the text or STFU.

You still didn't address the point. Avoidance much?

Originally posted by Borbarad
That was neither taunting nor Dun Möch (which is pretty much the same thing). Dooku pretty much told Anakin what he should do next and Anakin simply decided to follow the advice of the Sith Lord.

He never said, "You should use your dark feelings." He simply said you have these traits, and you don't use them. That's not a suggestion, that's an observation. And how is he supposed to convert Anakin if, according to you, he was neither taunting him nor using Don Moch?

Originally posted by Borbarad
He was "outclassed" because not wanting to kill his opponent but convert him to the Dark Side. By your logic, Vader was "outclassed" by RotJ Luke Skywalker.
In that instance, he was, although it was a completely different situation.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You're really inable to see the difference between an insult thrown at Anakin and a "good advice"? Gosh. So there is no difference between me telling you to "STFU idiot" or saying something like "You might probably want to think about that once more. You have the DVD and the novel. Why don't you use them?" ? Quite a nice way of interpreting statements.
So Dooku, while fighting Anakin, who wants to kill him, thinks its a bright idea to give Anakin "good advice" to help destroy him? Hmmm... And you can say "stfu" all you want, but it doesn't change anything or help your cause.

Careful, man. Nai's on his House/Mengele spree; he does this every six months after he leaves with his tail between his legs.