Aotc anakin and obiwan (in tip top shape this time) vs Aotc Dooku

Heres exactly what it says in reference to the Anakin/Dooku fight on page 141 of the Making of ROTS:

"All of this is deconstruction," Gillard says of the films increasingly complex lightsaber battles. "They [the duelists] are always in check. If you get in check, you have to move out of it, which makes the moves much more complicated. It means that if you want to arrive at an end move, it might take you 15 moves prior to that to get there. Just like chess. You start feinting and offering up parts of your body to try and tempt them. Anakin is offering his sword arm to Dooku, and he falls for it- and he knows as soon as Anakin draws his hand back, that it's all over. Its much more than a swordfight. The mental game that's going on is just as important as the moves. Dooku's weakness is that he's already beaten Anakin- and he's pretty sure he can do it again."

That doesn't mean he just sits there with his arm sticking out waiting for Dooku to grab for it. Watch the fight, it was near instantaneous. Anakin flat out pwned Dooku. That's all there is to it.

And Escape, good foresight about Nai. You must have Jedi powers.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That doesn't mean he just sits there with his arm sticking out waiting for Dooku to grab for it. Watch the fight, it was near instantaneous. Anakin flat out pwned Dooku. That's all there is to it.

And Escape, good foresight about Nai. You must have Jedi powers.

I appreciate the sentiment. But don't deride the statement from Nick Gillard, because it proves that overconfidence was Dooku's weakness.

Well that's still a weakness that cost him his life that a Jedi Anakin didn't have. Doesn't matter how you slice it, Anakin beat Dooku. Whether it was by Dooku's own hubris or whatever, Anakin didn't make the same mistakes and knew to capitalize on any mistake there was.

Out of curiosity, does the novel refer to any trickery in Anakin beating Dooku? I don't recall Lucas say anything along those lines in the commentary either. Ah well, Dooku's dead.

no ones saying Anakin didnt beat Dooku fair and square.. and its not about trickery exactly.. thats what happens in swordfights, you have to anticipate your opponents next move.. but everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in different fights..

Anakins strength in that particular fight was that he let go of his raw power and stopped holding back, and "decided to win." Dookus weakness in that particular fight was that he completely underestimated what he was up against.

As for Lucas im sure he must discuss how the fights go with Nick Gillard. including the mental aspects of the fights.

I'm sure he does to an extent, but I was always under the assumption that his decimation of Dooku was to display how powerful he was. Like no matter what, Dooku couldn't have done anything to change the outcome of that fight.

Oh, and for the record:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You can't speak for his state of mind every time he ignites his saber, nor can you prove his state of mind was different after "the taunt." And my other point was, if he was using the darkside, and was better than Dooku, who is always fueled by the darkside, then with them being on an even keel, Anakin is simply better. And i would put Anakin beating Dooku 9 out of 10 times.

First: Sorry for my absence. Work.

Second: I might repeat my point once more or rather point out a single thing in your statement. As you've said: Dooku is always "fueled by the Dark Side" which naturally boosts his combat abilities. Anakin, on the other side, is not. That was the entire point here. We can't assume that Anakin goes "berzerk" in any confrontation and we can't assume that he's going past that (into "the z0ne"😉 to an even lesser extend.

Third: There are rules for VS issues. We're comparing abilities here while the rest [character traits, storyline, feelings, motivation etc.] is ignored. And what is the result? The result is that Anakin has no reason to be angry at the beginning of the fight [because there is no prior conflict between him and Dooku] and far less to even get more angry [like watching his master almost getting killed by the Sith Lord or being taunted]. On the other hand, Dooku has no reason not to take Skywalker seriously as an opponent and also no motivation of converting him.

So the battle will always start with Lightside Anakin and Sith Lord Dooku. What is going to happen? Of course Anakin might get angry over time. But I really doubt that he will get angry enough to defeat Dooku before the Sith Lords kills him. I mean what: Asajj Ventress and Obi-Wan Kenobi, who are pretty much nothing in comparison to Dooku both have managed to almost kill Anakin in RotS days [Ventress shortly prior to RotS, Obi-Wan in the movie].

And we're still just arguing lightsaber combat here (for whatever reason that was). Going all out on Anakin, Dooku could simply pwn him with his superior force ablities. Not even Gideon would deny that.

I can agree that he wanted to convert Anakin, but never at the expense of his own life. If he was that dense to allow that to happen, then he's obviously not where he needs to be in order to beat Anakin. And as the novel states, and there's nothing to indicate that this contradicts the movie, Anakin was holding back, i.e. not going all out on Dooku the entire time, either. So, what happened in the last 12 seconds, could have happened in the first 12 seconds if Anakin was going all out.

Excuse me. But if you want to use the novel, please use it correctly. The "holding back" refers to Anakin holding back his emotions and nothing more:

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

See? And there we are back at the point above: Anakin is skilled enough to pose a threat for Dooku in lightsaber combat, which nobody did deny. The point is that Dooku still had the ability to throw Anakin off balance, after being completely surprised - as the novel claims - by Anakin and Kenobi having "faked forms". Because he did knew the weaknesses of Djem-So. And he also is powerful enough to engage Anakin in a saber lock, which happens in both the novel and the movie - for a rather long amount of time. And this all after having fought against the two Jedi together.

How can be so sure? You can't use "normal human" standards to judge Jedi and Sith in a fictional realm.

I may ask once more: Since when do Jedi think with superhuman speed? Is there any instance you can present where they were force-speed-thinking? No? Then you should probably assume that they work like every human being in that regard. In fact most of the SW stories wouldn't make much sense if the opposite was true.

That still doesn't prove that he could've beaten Anakin.

Gosh.
How shall I prove something regarding a completely speculative issue, dude? There is no factual evidence that Dooku could beat Anakin. Yet there is also no factual evidence to the contrary, if we put them against each other, assuming the conditions of a VS fight [which aren't the same conditions under which we saw them fighting in the movie or the novel].

Well then if you agree that Skywalker can defeat Dooku in a lightsaber battle, Nai, then that ends the argument. No one denies that Dooku can clearly school Anakin with the Force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
First: Sorry for my absence. Work.

Second: I might repeat my point once more or rather point out a single thing in your statement. As you've said: Dooku is always "fueled by the Dark Side" which naturally boosts his combat abilities. Anakin, on the other side, is not. That was the entire point here. We can't assume that Anakin goes "berzerk" in any confrontation and we can't assume that he's going past that (into "the z0ne"😉 to an even lesser extend.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Third: There are rules for VS issues. We're comparing abilities here while the rest [character traits, storyline, feelings, motivation etc.] is ignored. And what is the result? The result is that Anakin has no reason to be angry at the beginning of the fight [because there is no prior conflict between him and Dooku] and far less to even get more angry [like watching his master almost getting killed by the Sith Lord or being taunted]. On the other hand, Dooku has no reason not to take Skywalker seriously as an opponent and also no motivation of converting him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So the battle will always start with Lightside Anakin and Sith Lord Dooku. What is going to happen? Of course Anakin might get angry over time. But I really doubt that he will get angry enough to defeat Dooku before the Sith Lords kills him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I mean what: Asajj Ventress and Obi-Wan Kenobi, who are pretty much nothing in comparison to Dooku both have managed to almost kill Anakin in RotS days [Ventress shortly prior to RotS, Obi-Wan in the movie].

And we're still just arguing lightsaber combat here (for whatever reason that was). Going all out on Anakin, Dooku could simply pwn him with his superior force ablities. Not even Gideon would deny that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me. But if you want to use the novel, please use it correctly. The "holding back" refers to Anakin holding back his emotions and nothing more:

Originally posted by Borbarad
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Originally posted by Borbarad
See? And there we are back at the point above: Anakin is skilled enough to pose a threat for Dooku in lightsaber combat, which nobody did deny. The point is that Dooku still had the ability to throw Anakin off balance, after being completely surprised - as the novel claims - by Anakin and Kenobi having "faked forms". Because he did knew the weaknesses of Djem-So. And he also is powerful enough to engage Anakin in a saber lock, which happens in both the novel and the movie - for a rather long amount of time. And this all after having fought against the two Jedi together.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I may ask once more: Since when do Jedi think with superhuman speed? Is there any instance you can present where they were force-speed-thinking? No? Then you should probably assume that they work like every human being in that regard. In fact most of the SW stories wouldn't make much sense if the opposite was true.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Gosh.
How shall I prove something regarding a completely speculative issue, dude? There is no factual evidence that Dooku could beat Anakin. Yet there is also no factual evidence to the contrary, if we put them against each other, assuming the conditions of a VS fight [which aren't the same conditions under which we saw them fighting in the movie or the novel].

And yes, I agree that in a pure force fight, where Anakin isn't allowed to even touch a saber, that Dooku would tool him. Not because Anakin is weaker, cause technically he's stronger than everyone, but because his knowledge and mastery of the force pales in comparison to Dooku.

Bump for Nai #1.