Liu Kang vs. Gouki

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. Shao Kahn sure isn't slow. I don't know where you come up with that. And you seem to be making it seem like Johnny Cage is weak or something. He may joke around but he's not pushover and like many MK fighters, he's not just a regular human.

Shao Kahn's speed is somewhere around that on par with those of Kintaro and Goro. Take a good look at his fighting styles in MK: D for GameCube, even...they very clearly indicate a bit of 'sluggishness' when compared to other fighters (although he makes up for that, like Goro, with brute strength.)

Originally posted by SmashBro
And this is coming from a guy who relies on Tiamat's guide so much. Even in there, it just said Balrog killed an elephant. It didn't say how.

Take a good look at Balrog. Does it make sense for him to achieve an noteworthy kill of an elephant, according to confirmed canon, using anything OTHER than his fists?

Good, I thought not.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Now let me ask you this; can anyone punch so hard they knock the other persons head off? Can anyone punch so hard body explodes?

There's a reason why they're called fatalities; it's when someone is too weak to do much more than watch as someone takes their time, and at their leisure kill them in the most brutal way possible. In this case, ALL of their fatalities either require:

A.) A significant charge up time.
B.) For their opponent to be standing completely still and to accept the fact that they're going to die horribly.

This is why I disregard any feats regarding fatalities and shift the focus onto actual combat. Neither options are available in close-combat and so are completely moot.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Yet we never see Shin Akuma do anything in his canon storyline nor do we see regular Gouki using those attacks on people, just objects.

Most of his other "super" techniques (outside of Shungokusatsu) were developed some time after the two fights where he was known to not be holding back; the fight vs Gouken, then another later on vs Gen.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Gouki doesn't just use his death abilities out of the clear blue in a middle of the fight. He only rarely uses them.

And yes, if he wanted to Gouki CAN use his Shungokusatsu "out of the clear blue" at any time during the fight if he sees an opening. It's exactly how he owned Bison, he just jumps in and springs a Shungokusatsu on him immediately.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, Shao Kahn is comparably slow when you put them besides other fighters, and I'm talking about fighters with somewhat average speed, like two classic MK ninjas, not speed demons like Jade or Liu Kang.

Shao Kahn's speed is somewhere around that on par with those of Kintaro and Goro. Take a good look at his fighting styles in MK: D for GameCube, even...they very clearly indicate a bit of 'sluggishness' when compared to other fighters (although he makes up for that, like Goro, with brute strength.)

Yeah, in the recent games, he's slow but in the earlier games, he was much faster.

Originally posted by DarkC
I'll make this brief and to the point - use your common sense.
*snip
Take a good look at Balrog. Does it make sense for him to achieve an noteworthy kill of an elephant, according to confirmed canon, using anything OTHER than his fists?

Good, I thought not.

But the point is, it doesn't prove that he did it with a BASIC punch. We just know that he killed an elephant and likely with his fists but that's basically it. How he did, we don't know.

Originally posted by DarkC
Smash, they're fatalities and are irrelevant in a combat situation. I addessed this earlier.

It's not irrelevant in a kombat situation. I mean do you really think he only has to do this after he's beaten his opponent?

Originally posted by DarkC
There's a reason why they're called fatalities; it's when someone is too weak to do much more than watch as someone takes their time, and at their leisure kill them in the most brutal way possible. In this case, ALL of their fatalities either require:

A.) A significant charge up time.
B.) For their opponent to be standing completely still and to accept the fact that they're going to die horribly.

This is why I disregard any feats regarding fatalities and shift the focus onto actual combat. Neither options are available in close-combat and so are completely moot.

Umm DarkC, that's not exactly true. Fatalities are exactly what they are: occurences that are fatal, meaning it's something that results in death. Any kind of death is a fatality. You don't have to be in any of those positions you just mentioned to be killed. That's only in the game however everyone don't HAVE to be like that.

Originally posted by DarkC
That's because he's holding back.

Most of his other "super" techniques (outside of Shungokusatsu) were developed some time after the two fights where he was known to not be holding back; the fight vs Gouken, then another later on vs Gen..

So going by what you say, you shouldn't be using these as strategies in klose-kombat, like you said.

Originally posted by DarkC
Only against opponents he actually wants to kill does he start performing his death techniques.

And yes, if he wanted to Gouki CAN use his Shungokusatsu "out of the clear blue" at any time during the fight if he sees an opening. It's exactly how he owned Bison, he just jumps in and springs a Shungokusatsu on him immediately.

And if Liu Kang wanted to, he CAN use his death moves too.

But the point is, it doesn't prove that he did it with a BASIC punch. We just know that he killed an elephant and likely with his fists but that's basically it. How he did, we don't know.

He killed one of Dhalsim's elephants for the hell of it, most likely using the Gigaton punch. Bison... is a very powerful guy.

So see, even Tiamat is not 100% sure.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Yeah, in the recent games, he's slow but in the earlier games, he was much faster.

Post MK4, you started to see actual differentiation between characters; that's what I refer to.

Originally posted by SmashBro
But the point is, it doesn't prove that he did it with a BASIC punch. We just know that he killed an elephant and likely with his fists but that's basically it. How he did, we don't know.

Originally posted by SmashBro
It's not irrelevant in a kombat situation. I mean do you really think he only has to do this after he's beaten his opponent?

Originally posted by SmashBro
Umm DarkC, that's not exactly true. Fatalities are exactly what they are: occurences that are fatal, meaning it's something that results in death. Any kind of death is a fatality. You don't have to be in any of those positions you just mentioned to be killed. That's only in the game however everyone don't HAVE to be like that.

Do you think Scorpion can rip someone's head off if they were NOT aware and ready?
Do you think Kahn can take his warhammer and pound someone into the dirt slowly and leisurely if they were aware and ready?

I'll grant you that some of the fatalities in Mortal Kombat CAN be used in a real fight, technically, but not Liu Kang's. Unless he was zombie Liu Kang, then he can just possess Gouki from the inside out and blow him up (which is the only "super" fatality from him I've seen so far). He'd probably mess himself up in the process too, just like Rugal Bernstein.

Plus, if he summoned a MK arcade machine to fall on top of Akuma it probably wouldn't even do anything, haha.

Originally posted by SmashBro
So going by what you say, you shouldn't be using these as strategies in klose-kombat, like you said.

A lot of the "supers" in Street Fighter, as I said, CAN be compared to fatalities from MK in terms of power level, like Sektor's and Robot Smoke's, just not Liu Kangs.

Remember, the entire purpose of a fatality is to finish someone OFF (in the most violent way imaginable, I might add), not damage them, as the SF supers were designed to do.

Originally posted by SmashBro
And if Liu Kang wanted to, he CAN use his death moves too.

Originally posted by SmashBro
So see, even Tiamat is not 100% sure.

the way i see this fight going down is they both will kill each other

Originally posted by DarkC
That's because they reused sprites so very often - it's a quirk from a game mechanic.

Post MK4, you started to see actual differentiation between characters; that's what I refer to.

Maybe but he's got some fast moves, though.

Originally posted by DarkC
I never said that he killed it with a jab?

Well that was the main argument. However, I don't think I'd be basing that on his built. 😆

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, considering the circumstances.

But that's just in the game. Heck, Sub-Zero can deep freeze opponents using his Ice Shaker and he didn't even fight them.

Originally posted by DarkC
All this is just noise - I refer to the moves themselves, not the definition of a fatality.

Do you think Scorpion can rip someone's head off if they were NOT aware and ready?
Do you think Kahn can take his warhammer and pound someone into the dirt slowly and leisurely if they were aware and ready?

I'll grant you that some of the fatalities in Mortal Kombat CAN be used in a real fight, technically, but not Liu Kang's. Unless he was zombie Liu Kang, then he can just possess Gouki from the inside out and blow him up (which is the only "super" fatality from him I've seen so far). He'd probably mess himself up in the process too, just like Rugal Bernstein.

Plus, if he summoned a MK arcade machine to fall on top of Akuma it probably wouldn't even do anything, haha.

You're basically trying to say that they can only do this when an opponent is stunned and I do agree with that but only certain fatalities.

As for Liu Kang's well just think; his attacks, like Gouki, are based on chi (or ki) and we've seen characters, even in animes and mangas, power up their fists with that in the middle of fights. Seeing that that's just what Liu Kang does in his fatalities, I think it's pretty obvious he can do it in fights too.

Originally posted by DarkC
Those are different.

A lot of the "supers" in Street Fighter, as I said, CAN be compared to fatalities from MK in terms of power level, like Sektor's and Robot Smoke's, just not Liu Kangs.

Remember, the entire purpose of a fatality is to finish someone OFF (in the most violent way imaginable, I might add), not damage them, as the SF supers were designed to do.

Only certain ones. If Sub-Zero was to deep freeze someone or if Scorpion was burn someone to crisp, it wouldn't always have to occur at the end of a fight.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yeah, they just wouldn't hit.

If Akuma's reaction isn't fast, then they will.

Originally posted by DarkC
I never said he was - but when he's UNsure, he makes it clear that it's such.

I know. I was just pointing it out.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Maybe but he's got some fast moves, though.

Which is why his defense is much higher in MK: D than, say...Mileena.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Well that was the main argument. However, I don't think I'd be basing that on his built. 😆

Originally posted by SmashBro
But that's just in the game. Heck, Sub-Zero can deep freeze opponents using his Ice Shaker and he didn't even fight them

Not even sure if the movie can be used as materia or not, but screw that, I'll use it anyway.

Originally posted by SmashBro
You're basically trying to say that they can only do this when an opponent is stunned and I do agree with that but only certain fatalities.

Originally posted by SmashBro
As for Liu Kang's well just think; his attacks, like Gouki, are based on chi (or ki) and we've seen characters, even in animes and mangas, power up their fists with that in the middle of fights. Seeing that that's just what Liu Kang does in his fatalities, I think it's pretty obvious he can do it in fights too.

I don't doubt that he possesses the capability to power up one or both of his fists (or feet, for that matter) but the practicality of it right in the middle of a fight is slime to none. I severely doubt that Gouki would even let him enough reprieve to charge it up, let alone leave a huge opening for Liu to open up with a charged fist on him; that's the point I'm getting at - he CAN probably do it, it's just he likely won't get the chance to.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Only certain ones. If Sub-Zero was to deep freeze someone or if Scorpion was burn someone to crisp, it wouldn't always have to occur at the end of a fight. However, still, that would be unfair if you use Gouki's island punching feat or rock splitting feat or ship kicking feat in a kombat fight when he's never actually used this.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero are different, their normal blows are not superhuman as you can see so they accentuate that with their special abilities. Quite often. I don't blame them for it at all, they're just using their assets when it's necessary.

Originally posted by SmashBro
If Akuma's reaction isn't fast, then they will.

Originally posted by SmashBro
That was a small little fight that was obviously PIS.

Originally posted by brainchild81
What makes it PIS?

Plus, Shang Tsung looked entirely different.

YouTube video

Originally posted by brainchild81
What makes it PIS?

This guy is well trained former Shaolin Monk with six styles mastered and has previously beaten four dangerous beings. It makes no sense for him to be taken down like that.

Originally posted by DarkC
To be fair, there's a difference between being "frozen" and being turned into ice (I think that was what his fatality was in the first place). The moves that I've seen that actually turn them into ice required a massive amount of charging up.

*video*
*video*

Not even sure if the movie can be used as materia or not, but screw that, I'll use it anyway.

Well that's why I said deep freeze, to make distinction and in MKA:Konquest, that's exactly what happened to his enemies after he frozed them.

Originally posted by DarkC
Very likely. It's the way he powers his fireballs and probably how he stays in the air during his bicycle/dragon kicks.

I don't doubt that he possesses the capability to power up one or both of his fists (or feet, for that matter) but the practicality of it right in the middle of a fight is slime to none. I severely doubt that Gouki would even let him enough reprieve to charge it up, let alone leave a huge opening for Liu to open up with a charged fist on him; that's the point I'm getting at - he CAN probably do it, it's just he likely won't get the chance to.

I personally think he will.

Originally posted by DarkC
That's because he's never really had to - both those moves were, as I said somewhere else, self-taught/learned somewhere after the two fights were he was actually trying (SHIN Gouki, in other words), vs Gouken and later on Gen. I think he went all-out vs Oro too, but not sure what moves he pulled. The last fight is too unclear.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero are different, their normal blows are not superhuman as you can see so they accentuate that with their special abilities. Quite often. I don't blame them for it at all, they're just using their assets when it's necessary.

Not really. In the opening of SM, Sub-Zero killed one of the guards after just hitting him once. Their blows didn't seem superhuman but it's obvious that anyone who is strong enough to decapitate someone with their hands must be insanely powerful.

Originally posted by DarkC
Honestly though, even I could step out of the way if Liu just strolls up to me, powers up his fist, and lets a bomb of a punch fly 2 seconds later.

Unless you can predict his moves, that's highly unlikely.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Well that's why I said [b]deep freeze, to make distinction and in MKA:Konquest, that's exactly what happened to his enemies after he frozed them.[/b]

Judging from the SM opening sequence, his normal iceball simply encases them in ice, and as you can see can be broken quite easily. That's a far more practical move, but in all honestly it isn't enormously difficult to avoid, and besides Gouki's strength would certainly break through the ice quite quickly, allowing Sub only a small respite.

Originally posted by SmashBro
I personally think he will.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Not really. In the opening of SM, Sub-Zero killed one of the guards after just hitting him once. Their blows didn't seem superhuman but it's obvious that anyone who is strong enough to decapitate someone with their hands must be insanely powerful.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Unless you can predict his moves, that's highly unlikely.

What do you do?

Originally posted by DarkC
Considering how long it took to charge up an attack that actually turned his enemies to ice, it's a little on the unpractical side.

Judging from the SM opening sequence, his normal iceball simply encases them in ice, and as you can see can be broken quite easily. That's a far more practical move, but in all honestly it isn't enormously difficult to avoid, and besides Gouki's strength would certainly break through the ice quite quickly, allowing Sub only a small respite.

But then again, that might take a while, as I don't think Sub-Zero is just gonna stand there once it's done either.

Originally posted by DarkC
Be realistic - from what has been shown so far, he's basically PROJECTED his moves, the super ones anyway, before he did them. Anyone with even average reflexes would be able to dodge it, and we both know for a fact that Akuma is no slouch at speed. I'll give you that his special moves would be much faster, his fireball and bicycle/dragon kicks specifically, but not the super ones on the level of a fatality.

I really don't see how they're all that slow as you make them seem to be. It really doesn't take long for him to charge up. Plus, we've seen Akuma fight at normal speed, so that would definitely give Liu Kang a chance.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, and he used the guard's weapon to do it. He didn't decapitate him; he ripped his spine out from the back, which requires a whole different kind of force from ripping someone's head off.

Well you know what I meant. It's almost the same thing anyway.

Originally posted by DarkC
Well, imagine him walking towards you, then crouching by your feet, and you see his fist charging up with ki with the clear intent to strike with it.

What do you do?

I wouldn't try to dodge him. Heck, I wouldn't even get near him. But then again, who's to say Liu Kang's gonna be walking to do it anyway?

Originally posted by SmashBro
This guy is well trained former Shaolin Monk with six styles mastered and has previously beaten four dangerous beings. It makes no sense for him to be taken down like that.

Originally posted by SmashBro
But then again, that might take a while, as I don't think Sub-Zero is just gonna stand there once it's done either.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I really don't see how they're all that slow as you make them seem to be. It really doesn't take long for him to charge up. Plus, we've seen Akuma fight at normal speed, so that would definitely give Liu Kang a chance.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I wouldn't try to dodge him. Heck, I wouldn't even get near him. But then again, who's to say Liu Kang's gonna be walking to do it anyway?

Originally posted by brainchild81
What four? They team up on him?

Nah, I'm just saying that he beat four beings (Goro, Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn, Shinnok) and he's trained in many Kung Fu styles. I don't see how can someone like that could be taken down so easily.

Originally posted by DarkC
A centimeter thick layer of ice against a being that can split a mountain in half - that gives Sub-Zero a disappointingly small time-window to do something, to be painfully honest.

I don't see what's him splitting a mountain in half proves, since he would have to power up or use some kind of technique to do that.

Originally posted by DarkC
No, but considering Gouki's speed then it very likely would be a significant amount of time, enough for Gouki to get away.

Gouki doesn't really seem to fight at "super speed" to me, that's why I said that Liu Kang can possibly catch him.

Originally posted by DarkC
Because he's done it in his fataility videos (UMK3). Considering the circumstances of the fight itself, he'd probably be running or something, but someone running at Gouki with a glowing fist is a pretty clear indication to Gouki: "ASHURA THROUGH ME. NOW."

You know he also rolls in one of his fatalities too, huh? And I just knew you were gonna bring the Ashura attack. I was just waiting on it. That could give Gouki the win...or Liu can trick him by glowing his hand for a sec and Gouki will be like "what the..." BOOM out of nowhere, Liu Kang knocks his head off. 😎 I couldn't resist. 😂

Originally posted by SmashBro
Nah, I'm just saying that he beat four beings (Goro, Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn, Shinnok) and he's trained in many Kung Fu styles. I don't see how can someone like that could be taken down so easily.

The **** he did'nt even finish off Goro, Johnny cage jumped in at the last minute.

Originally posted by SmashBro
I don't see what's him splitting a mountain in half proves, since he would have to power up or use some kind of technique to do that.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Gouki doesn't really seem to fight at "super speed" to me, that's why I said that Liu Kang can possibly catch him.

Originally posted by SmashBro
You know he also rolls in one of his fatalities too, huh? And I just knew you were gonna bring the Ashura attack. I was just waiting on it. That could give Gouki the win...or Liu can trick him by glowing his hand for a sec and Gouki will be like "what the..." BOOM out of nowhere, Liu Kang knocks his head off. 😎 I couldn't resist. 😂